Putin's anti-gay laws and Sochi Olympics

[ForeverFish]

Meaning no disrespect, Bluebonnet, but I personally experienced ALL of the described not too many years ago, so I think I'm quite qualified to describe the sex ed in Texas. I never said that it was nonexistent, just that the QUALITY of education was extremely low, for the reasons outlined in my previous post. It gives kids a distorted or simply inaccurate view of the subject matter and does not properly "educate" them to the realities behind sex.

I also fail to see a significant difference in maturity between a 17-year-old (a teenager) and an 18-year-old (an adult) that would warrant telling the 18 year old about sex but keepin the 17 year old in the dark. At what age do you think it would be appropriate for kids to be addressed as adults, then? Because, if presented in an accurate and factual way, I do not believe it would be as corrupting of an influence as you fear.

 

[Mathman]

They start sex education from grade four. By eighth grade, they'd have finished all graphic and verbal sex educations.

In my humble opinion all that is required is to teach about the reproductive system as a biology lesson. Preaching at teenagers is a waste of time (which could be better spent learning geometry ).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Bluebonnet, I think this whole “gay propaganda” and “protecting children” dodge is actually quite disingenuous baloney. I would almost have more respect for the Russian powers-that-be if they would hitch up their britches and say what they really mean: that they believe homosexual activity to be sinful and harmful to Russian cultural traditions, and thus it will not be tolerated in public.

A benighted stance, yes, but at least they would be speaking their minds truthfully instead of hiding behind a silly canard about fears of innocent children being brainwashed into converting to gay-ism.

THIS. So much. It's all a ruse... I mean, you can brainwash or fear Russians into thinking that's the reason for these laws, but their intent (to discriminate) is as transparent as a bottle of vodka. The government should really flat out say "Russia is not a place for gay people to be treated like normal people", since everyone knows that's what their mandate is. Oh, but that would ruin the Olympics if they were truthful about their discrimination!

As for the so-called gender identity crisis in the US, what does an LGBT kid growing up in Russia do when coming to terms with their sexuality? You think that anti-gay laws and stifling propaganda will prevent kids from turning out to be gay? And then having laws that persecute them for being gay and saying it is abnormal is somehow protecting these children?

BB, if you honestly think that LGBT people do have basic human rights and civil rights in Russia, based on these laws, then that's your opinion, but I think the vast majority of the world would disagree (and not just Western powers). Persecuting LGBT individuals for being who they are is not human rights. Allowing people to beat up LGBT people with no repercussions or consequences is not human rights. Forcibly removing children from their parents is not human rights.

Even Russian-born children cannot be adopted by parents (even straight parents) who live in a country that supports same sex marriage. How does this protect a child who could benefit from being adopted into a loving household?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

What you know about Texas is not what I know about Texas, ForeverFish. I'm sure it is more conservative here compare with the northeast states, but it's just not what you've discribed. They start sex education from grade four. By eighth grade, they'd have finished all graphic and verbal sex educations. One grade four teacher I know talked about different sexual orientations and gay marriage she supports to her students in her regular class, not in sex education class. I'm not against sex education in school given such a messy environment every kid lives in. But such education too early is just using a wrong against wrong. Where is the belief that children's innocence should be guarded and protected? Treating them like adults is just forcing them to grow up faster which they can not, neither in their bodies nor in their minds. No wonder why this young generation in US is so confused.

What is their "confusion", pray tell?

For the record, different sexualities was not part of sex ed in my schooling (I went to public school, in Canada), and I happen to be gay. Just like some kids in my class happen to be straight.

I think you, along with the Russian people, have an incorrect notion that sexuality isn't something ingrained. No matter how much you tell a kitten it's a dog, eventually it's going to grow into a cat.

If a kid is gay, they will continue to be gay... as much as Russians will persecute them, or make them feel ashamed, or make them feel like second-class citizens, or force them into straight marriages, or look the other way when homophobes attack them, they will still be who they inherently are. No law or fist to the face or public stigma or amount of "government protection/sheltering" will change that.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Bluebonnet, I don't think it's sex education in school that takes children's innocence, but I do agree with you that popular culture in the U.S. is way too obsessed with sex. This atmosphere is especially damaging to girls, who are treated as objects at very early ages on TV and in ads. Additionally, due to changing eating habits and perhaps some environmental pollutants, puberty is taking place earlier and earlier. I think a hundred years ago, girls went through puberty at about sixteen. Now it can start as early as ten. (Except of course for skaters and gymnasts, who overtrain and don't eat, which is another issue we could get upset about.) These days, with the Internet, kids have even more access to images and ideas (and people) that you and I would give anything to protect them from.

Of course, this goes for both gay and straight sex. In this atmosphere, I think that education at least helps makes kids aware of the dangers of buying into the temptations. But I understand why parents would try to opt out of popular culture completely. I have one friend who brought up her children in an orthodox Jewish community and other online friends who are homeschooled evangelical Christians. These kids are generally open, kind, comfortable with older people, have long attention spans, and are unafraid to seem eager about education. Since I know them online (on several literary sites we all frequent), I don't know many particulars about their lives, but I suspect that a lot of them live in rural areas and are not subjected to the daily barrage of crassness that the rest of us endure. I'm glad their parents can protect them from this. But in society at large, we can't put that genie back in the bottle. And the countries where permissiveness is not allowed at all are so repressive that they shut out just about everything else. I don't think many of us, including most Russians (and especially women and girls), would want to live there.

I agree with you in a lot of the points you made, Olympia. I do not against sex ed as I have said. US is hopelessly messy on this front. Sex ed in school is the last resource and defenseline we have. However, if not all parents deeply involve and care about their children's well being and future, schools cannot single handedly and successfully accomplish this task.

Meaning no disrespect, Bluebonnet, but I personally experienced ALL of the described not too many years ago, so I think I'm quite qualified to describe the sex ed in Texas. I never said that it was nonexistent, just that the QUALITY of education was extremely low, for the reasons outlined in my previous post. It gives kids a distorted or simply inaccurate view of the subject matter and does not properly "educate" them to the realities behind sex.

I also fail to see a significant difference in maturity between a 17-year-old (a teenager) and an 18-year-old (an adult) that would warrant telling the 18 year old about sex but keepin the 17 year old in the dark. At what age do you think it would be appropriate for kids to be addressed as adults, then? Because, if presented in an accurate and factual way, I do not believe it would be as corrupting of an influence as you fear.

I have no doubt that you know a lot about Texas. I am just puzzled on what things You are against for the sex ed in Texas? What measures the quality of sex ed? What distorted views kids got from it?

As I have said, to blame high teen pregnancy rate on school sex ed is, to say the least, laughable. Where are their parents?!

I believe that a year maturity does make difference. Besides, a law has to have a specific cut off age, hasn't it? Most countries agree that 18 is the year that separates adulthood from childhood. I believe it's because this is the year that most children graduate from high school, and step into real world. Some of them go to higher education. Many of them start to work and earn their own living.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Also due to Texas being a deeply religious "red" state, the standard of practical education will be lower. Not to say Texans are all unintelligent, but when they think you can pray away the gay, or when they think the mother's right to abortion should be an afterthought and is an abomination against God, etc. - i.e. when they bring religion into sex education - this contorts reality and makes teens more confused than they would be if they were actually told the truth based on factual data instead of religious influence. As mentioned, this actually has the opposite of the intended effect... instead of "scaring" children into not having sex, this actually incites them to be more sexually active. Everyone knows that when you tell kids one thing, they end up doing/believing the other.

 

[Bluebonnet]

As for the so-called gender identity crisis in the US, what does an LGBT kid growing up in Russia do when coming to terms with their sexuality? You think that anti-gay laws and stifling propaganda will prevent kids from turning out to be gay? And then having laws that persecute them for being gay and saying it is abnormal is somehow protecting these children?

BB, if you honestly think that LGBT people do have basic human rights and civil rights in Russia, based on these laws, then that's your opinion, but I think the vast majority of the world would disagree (and not just Western powers). Persecuting LGBT individuals for being who they are is not human rights. Allowing people to beat up LGBT people with no repercussions or consequences is not human rights. Forcibly removing children from their parents is not human rights.

Even Russian-born children cannot be adopted by parents (even straight parents) who live in a country that supports same sex marriage. How does this protect a child who could benefit from being adopted into a loving household?

Please tell me why gender identity crisis is so big a problem in modern day US than it was a hundred years ago? Why is it a so much bigger problem here in US than in Asian countries?

You want to hold hands and kiss in the public. you've got Them. Though if it's in Asia or in Middle East, it'll be another story. I've seen exaggerations, lies, try to stir up and mess with the harmony of Russians' daily life, and hooliganism. I feel disgusted to know a topless woman try to climb a fence in the name of "expressing the anger towards this law". what's next?

Allowing O.J.Simpson to get away with murdering his wife and his wife's friend is not a justice. Letting Zimmerman go free from killing Martin is not a justice. A few liberal Supreme Court judges play the "human right" card and override the decisions of California people is not a justice. Why does every country have to accept your radical liberal views? I thought US has branded itself for the freedom of religions. It's Their country, their religion, their value, and their right to defend it.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Also due to Texas being a deeply religious "red" state, the standard of practical education will be lower. Not to say Texans are all unintelligent, but when they think you can pray away the gay, or when they think the mother's right to abortion should be an afterthought and is an abomination against God, etc. - i.e. when they bring religion into sex education - this contorts reality and makes teens more confused than they would be if they were actually told the truth based on factual data instead of religious influence. As mentioned, this actually has the opposite of the intended effect... instead of "scaring" children into not having sex, this actually incites them to be more sexually active. Everyone knows that when you tell kids one thing, they end up doing/believing the other.

I am sorry. Reading what you said in this post makes me convinced that you know nothing about Texas. What makes you have the right to insult the people of Texas? Also insult the religion?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You want to hold hands and kiss in the public. you've got Them. Though if it's in Asia or in Middle East, it'll be another story. I've seen exaggerations, try to stir up and mess with the harmony of Russians' daily life, and hooliganism. I feel disgusted to know a topless woman try to climb a fence in the name of "expressing the anger towards this law". what's next?

You want to talk, "What's next?"... how about thugs inevitably killing LGBT people with impunity. You establish hatred or treat a group of people as inferior and then you get stuff like this happening...
http://www.thegailygrind.com/2013/0...ed-by-neo-nazi-group-in-broad-daylight-video/

"Basic human rights", indeed. Gay teens are being abused by thugs with the full sanction of their police and government. And now we're supposed to reward them with the money and prestige of an Olympics ceremony. :disapp:

 

[heyang]

Just as an aside, one actor came out to protest Russian law and decline attendance at a Russian film festival. Personall, I don't think it makes much difference to his acting career vs a gay skater skipping the Olympics....

http://popwatch.ew.com/2013/08/21/wentworth-miller-gay-russian-film-festival/

 

[Buttercup]

I have no doubt that you know a lot about Texas. I am just puzzled on what things You are against for the sex ed in Texas? What measures the quality of sex ed? What distorted views kids got from it?

...

I believe that a year maturity does make difference. Besides, a law has to have a specific cut off age, hasn't it? Most countries agree that 18 is the year that separates adulthood from childhood. I believe it's because this is the year that most children graduate from high school, and step into real world. Some of them go to higher education. Many of them start to work and earn their own living.

The Texas legislature must disagree with you with regard to teenage sex, since the age of consent in TX is 17, and it can be even lower if the older partner is no more than three years older - so long as the younger partner is over the age of 14.

What does distorted mean? Not homophobic? I think homophobia is the distorted view that needs to be addressed, not the other way around.

Effective sex education: students are provided with good knowledge about their bodies, various aspects of human sexuality and sexual orientation, about having respect for yourself and your partner(s), about contraception and avoiding STIs. More knowledge can mean lower rates of STIs and unwanted pregnancies, among other things, and more people who will have a good and fulfilling sex life when they are ready for it. But I have a friend who is a sex therapist and educator, I could ask her for her definition, which I am sure will be more grounded in knowledge and experience.

 

[Olympia]

Just as an aside, one actor came out to protest Russian law and decline attendance at a Russian film festival. Personall, I don't think it makes much difference to his acting career vs a gay skater skipping the Olympics....

http://popwatch.ew.com/2013/08/21/wentworth-miller-gay-russian-film-festival/

Isn't that something? Here's a guy who has steadfastly refused to speak about his orientation, and he comes out officially solely as a response to Putin's law. (In an exceedingly polite, gentlemanly letter.) Makes you wonder about other unintended consequences of a law designed to keep this issue out of public discourse.

 

[yaya124]

Isn't that something? Here's a guy who has steadfastly refused to speak about his orientation, and he comes out officially solely as a response to Putin's law. (In an exceedingly polite, gentlemanly letter.) Makes you wonder about other unintended consequences of a law designed to keep this issue out of public discourse.

All my friends know Wentworth Miller is gay before his official come-out. Just saying.

 

[Olympia]

You and your friends sound pretty savvy, but not everyone is. I know I never heard anything about him. It's interesting to read the reactions by posters below the articles on various sites. Many of them say that they had always had a crush on him and were surprised to hear the news. Some joked that they were sorry that all the hot guys turn out to be "ineligible" for their love. The general reaction seems to be surprise. One or two said that not much surprises them these days, but that this announcement did.

We as distant audience members often think we know about a particular star (think of all the people who make assumptions about Tom Cruise), but often there are a lot of people who aren't aware of the speculation. There are still many old-time fans who don't believe that Rock Hudson was gay because he was so successful at playing the hunky leading man.

In any case, the fact that Miller tried not to get into this discussion for years but changed his mind at this moment is significant, I think. I know that a lot of people think that Hollywood is "full of gay people," and certainly the arts have long been a haven for people who march to the beat of a different drummer in some way. But men who earn their living on the screen as sexy romantic or action leads must surely worry about losing their bankability. The competition is fierce out there. Even today, one of the relatively few openly gay men who has managed to succeed playing leading straight roles is Neil Patrick Harris. Rupert Everett (a handsome charmer if ever there was one) has said that coming out reduced his opportunities considerably. So it must be a pretty scary move for someone like Miller to say explicitly (pun not intended) that he is not straight.

 

[Bluebonnet]

So you are all against the "restriction of information that promotes non-traditional sexual relationships among children." Isn't there something wrong in America?:sarcasm:

Read the comments under here, Olympia:

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-defends-anti-gay-law-letter-ioc-105223113.html

And here:

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-runne...inst-anti-200421126--abc-news-topstories.html

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

All my friends know Wentworth Miller is gay before his official come-out. Just saying.

Oh, he came out years ago (so it's weird that the internet is abuzz about him "coming out")... but it's missing the point. It's more about the statement he's making by turning down the invitation.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So you are all against the "restriction of information that promotes non-traditional sexual relationships among children." Isn't there something wrong in America?:sarcasm:

Read the comments under here, Olympia:

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-defends-anti-gay-law-letter-ioc-105223113.html

"However, Kozak did not back down on the issue of the new law, which penalizes anyone who distributes information aimed at persuading minors that "nontraditional" relationships are normal or attractive."

This is saying that a gay or lesbian relationship isn't normal. It's not even about distribution of information like pamphlets or signs... if a minor asks somebody if being LGBT is normal, it is illegal to say yes to that. This is the restriction that we are all against. When people advocated for interracial marriage they weren't saying that children must now go marry somebody of the opposite race or pushing some "interracial agenda" - they simply wanted to be accepted for loving who they want to love, even if it happens to be somebody of a different race. The same goes for gay people - they don't care about promoting LGBT relationships to children. They care about LGBT people/relationships not being seen as abnormal and not persecuting people for being who they love, or persecuting them for being happy with who they are, as well as being comfortable with telling people that they're happy being who they are.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Oh, he came out years ago (so it's weird that the internet is abuzz about him "coming out")... but it's missing the point. It's more about the statement he's making by turning down the invitation.

Ironically, you've said this yourself.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Ironically, you've said this yourself.

I don't get what you mean. I was pointing out that it's weird that people are all talking about him coming out like it's something new, when he did that years ago.

 

[Mathman]

So you are all against the "restriction of information that promotes non-traditional sexual relationships among children." Isn't there something wrong in America? :sarcasm:

Here is where I think this campaign is wrong-headed. The underlying assumption is that straight children can be propagandized into developing a sexual attraction for people of the same sex by presenting homosexuality as OK for people who are homosexual.

Think about that premise. I assume that you are a straight woman. Suppose a woman came up to you waving a rainbow flag and said, "You know, being a lesbian is fun, too. Do you want to try it? All you have to do is stop being attracted to men and start being attracted to women.. OK?"