Putin's anti-gay laws and Sochi Olympics

[Li'Kitsu]

Basically, for my understanding, they just say, mind your own business. Don't show off or promote it publicly where minors might be presence.

Agreed. I'm not liking the law at all, not the one forbidding gay couples to adopt children, nor the one saying gay people aren't allowed to talk about it publicly. But it's been pushed out of proportions (especially regarding the olympics). I can understand it if even non-russian poeple feel offended by this new law and want to protest, but it doesn't make any sense to let the athletes suffer for it. Gay (and not gay) athletes should be able to decide on their own if they want to go or not. The decision is don't get yourself the reward for at least 4 years of hard training or be silent about your sexuality for the time of your stay in Sochi. Nobody is cowardly for doing the latter. But it shouldn't be non-athletes making that decision.
Additionally, I'm sceptical how much other nations interfering here will really help. Most likely, it'll change nothing, but there's even a chance it might make things worse.

 

[gmyers]

Yes, gymers, I think you've expressed the thought behind Russia's law well... Thank you for, apparently against your own intentions, making the point of critics of the law.

Yes, gay people are so "dramatic." Thank you for clarifiying that.

My sarcasm is not equal to the task of responding to gymers and bluebonnet. I give up.

Moderators: please restore this thread to the The Edge. Relegating this to the politics forum--and I know you don't mean to--supports the idea that not talking about the issue is neutral. Despite your intentions, you are taking sides (with the status quo).

The law is bad enough- exaggerating it just makes it less believable and more likely that a lot of negatives can be denied.

If a tv reporter asked weir anything about being married it has to have some proof that it was aimed at young people. Where is the propaganda angle? And If there was a propaganda angle it would be more likely to affect the interviewer than interviewee I think.

 

[Olympia]

You're assuming that the interview will be for Russian TV. What about American or Canadian TV, which might want to talk about this (even if it's just for sensationalistic motives)? The interview may be by satellite, so the interviewer may be in, say, Los Angeles. Suppose this interviewer asks someone in Sochi about the law. What should the answer be--"I can't talk about it or I'll be arrested"? Or suppose a TV interviewer (who might also be gay) asks a skater or coach, "Do you have any message to send to the youth of Russia?" Would the skater or coach say, "No, I have nothing to say to any anguished sixteen-year-old who may be contemplating suicide. Suck it up and fend for yourself"?


Another question has occurred to me. Suppose someone is accused of committing this action. Where will he or she be held for fifteen days? Who else will be in the cell? Will visitors be allowed to check up on the person? What happens at night, when no one is paying attention? Remember, this is for a non-criminal act according to the wording of the law.

 

[ice coverage]

IOC: Sochi Olympians, Guests Exempt From Russia's Anti-Gay Law
16:38 26.07.2013 (Last updated 17:12 26.07.2013)

http://en.rsport.ru/olympics/20130726/676211071.html​

Excerpt:

MOSCOW, July 26 (R-Sport) - The International Olympic Committee told R-Sport on Friday it has received “assurances from the highest level” of Russian government that athletes and spectators at next year’s Winter Olympics in Sochi will be exempt from a controversial law banning anything deemed to promote homosexuality.
Since it was signed into law by President Vladimir Putin last month, the legislation targeting so-called homosexual propaganda has attracted calls from activists around the world to boycott Russia’s first Winter Olympics.
“As a sporting organization, what we can do is to continue to work to ensure that the Games can take place without discrimination against athletes, officials, spectators and the media,” the IOC said in an emailed statement.

“To that end, the IOC has received assurances from the highest level of government in Russia that the legislation will not affect those attending or taking part in the Games.”
​

 

[Olympia]

I have to say that's a huge relief. While not ideal, it at least gets visiting Olympic participants and visitors out of the line of fire.

 

[Mathman]

So Putin's position is that being gay is wicked and sinful and that it undermines the purity of the Russian state. Except for Olympic athletes and their friends -- then it's OK.

 

[Olympia]

In the old days they used to call that realpolitik, I believe.

The thing about laws against gays is that such laws don't affect some alien group out there. Almost every family has someone who is gay (whether openly or not), and this person might get caught up in the law. "If they would only be quiet about it" doesn't work, because in order to be quite about one's essential nature, one must pretend to be something else entirely. Can you imagine how a spouse would feel if she learned, fifteen years into the marriage, that she was only used as a smokescreen so her husband could "be quiet about it," but that he had been living a double life all along? How do situations like this add to the purity of any nation?

 

[gmyers]

You're assuming that the interview will be for Russian TV. What about American or Canadian TV, which might want to talk about this (even if it's just for sensationalistic motives)? The interview may be by satellite, so the interviewer may be in, say, Los Angeles. Suppose this interviewer asks someone in Sochi about the law. What should the answer be--"I can't talk about it or I'll be arrested"? Or suppose a TV interviewer (who might also be gay) asks a skater or coach, "Do you have any message to send to the youth of Russia?" Would the skater or coach say, "No, I have nothing to say to any anguished sixteen-year-old who may be contemplating suicide. Suck it up and fend for yourself"?


Another question has occurred to me. Suppose someone is accused of committing this action. Where will he or she be held for fifteen days? Who else will be in the cell? Will visitors be allowed to check up on the person? What happens at night, when no one is paying attention? Remember, this is for a non-criminal act according to the wording of the law.

This may be moot now by the issue Could still have been was the show for kids? Was it a children news program for nickelodeon or something? Was the interview done from a school?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I have to say that's a huge relief. While not ideal, it at least gets visiting Olympic participants and visitors out of the line of fire.

Um, I don't think this exempts LGBT people from being out as they normally would be. Which is a bigger Russian issue.

"What a relief that we won't be treated like the other LGBT people in Russia!" is a cowardly stance, and it's totally sweeping this situation under the rug. It's like saying "You can be gay, and come to the Olympics and we'll take your money... just don't act gay, okay?"

If anything, this should motive people to talk about LGBT issues come the Olympics if they have been given so called immunity from the Russian government.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So Putin's position is that being gay is wicked and sinful and that it undermines the purity of the Russian state. Except for Olympic athletes and their friends -- then it's OK.

It's OK as long is doesn't mar the image of Russia during the Olympics or the millions of dollars this will inject into the waning Russian economy. After Closing Ceremonies, you'd better hope that your ticket gets you back home.

I also agree that this is an important issue/thread that is ingrained in the figure skating event, and to be shifted to the Le Cafe/Politics forum is just burying it (obviously the mods can do as they please though, just my opinion).

 

[Olympia]

Um, I don't think this exempts LGBT people from being out as they normally would be. Which is a bigger Russian issue.

"What a relief that we won't be treated like the other LGBT people in Russia!" is a cowardly stance, and it's totally sweeping this situation under the rug. It's like saying "You can be gay, and come to the Olympics and we'll take your money... just don't act gay, okay?"

If anything, this should motive people to talk about LGBT issues come the Olympics if they have been given so called immunity from the Russian government.

Don't worry, SkaterGuy; I'm no less angry at the situation. I am just relieved that a few thousand visitors will be a little safer for two weeks. Believe me, I understand the implication that they should come and spend and enhance the glitter of the Sochi Olympics but just not behave in any non-approved way. I feel the same when I hear about women traveling to those cosmopolitan conference centers in the United Arab Emirates. "It's all right, dear; we won't arrest you for not wearing a chador. That only applies to people who live here. You can even drink liquor." (I can't remember the name for a chador in that part of the world.)

One of the big problems is that people continue to think that gays "recruit" others into their "lifestyle." No one enlists to be gay. People are drafted. As someone once said, it's not a choice, it's a discovery. This means that making laws to keep a country "pure" will not diminish the number of gay people. It will just make their lives miserable, and for what reason?

 

[Bluebonnet]

I also agree that this is an important issue/thread that is ingrained in the figure skating event, and to be shifted to the Le Cafe/Politics forum is just burying it (obviously the mods can do as they please though, just my opinion).

It absolutely belongs to where it is now. Thanks to the mods! It has nothing to do with figure skating.

 

[Bluebonnet]

One of the big problems is that people continue to think that gays "recruit" others into their "lifestyle." No one enlists to be gay. People are drafted. As someone once said, it's not a choice, it's a discovery.

Any scientific proofs for what you've just said? No, you don't have. It is a frontier that even scientists are debating for. How could you be so sure? I believe the environment has played a very big role on it.

 

[Olympia]

Because if it were a choice, let's be frank: no one in Iran would be gay. Who'd choose to be gay where it was a hanging offense? In fact, through history there have been societies that were extremely hostile (to the point of bloodshed) to gays. Not a single one of those societies was completely straight.

As for scientific proof, I gather there have been studies of certain structural elements or chemical differences in the brain. But I don't keep up with the details because I don't generally worry about proving why someone is or is not gay. My job as a human being is to try to treat other human beings with dignity.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Because if it were a choice, let's be frank: no one in Iran would be gay. Who'd choose to be gay where it was a hanging offense? In fact, through history there have been societies that were extremely hostile (to the point of bloodshed) to gays. Not a single one of those societies was completely straight.

As for scientific proof, I gather there have been studies of certain structural elements or chemical differences in the brain. But I don't keep up with the details because I don't generally worry about proving why someone is or is not gay. My job as a human being is to try to treat other human beings with dignity.

My view doesn't have any conflicts with what you said. You have just said one thing. But I said it is not all. I didn't say it is entirely up to the environment one grows up, did I? I do recognize and accept that some of them are just born with it, like most people are right handed but some are left handed. However, the environment has played a very big role on the children's take during their developing stage. I believe some people have been "recruited" (can't find a better word for it as of now).

Almost every family has someone who is gay (whether openly or not)

Really?! First time hear this!

 

[dorispulaski]

Almost every family has someone who is gay (whether openly or not)

Really?! First time hear this!

Boy, you haven't been listening, Bluebonnet.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/6961/what-percentage-population-gay.aspx

Since 1948, there have been public studies estimating the percent of males who are gay as between 9% and 20%. Needless to say, if your extended family consists of grandparents, uncles, aunts, parents, sisters, brothers, cousins of various degrees, there is a very good chance that there is a gay person in your extended family. Given your attitude, however, I doubt that they would make you their confidant on the subject if they were in the closet.

Doris P who has one gay son, and had one gay second cousin who committed suicide back in the 1970's, mostly because of the strain of staying in the closet.

 

[Bluebonnet]

God bless you and your family, Doris. I guess my family and all of my friends' families are not that lucky. So I never knew the assertion of "almost every family...".

 

[Olympia]

Boy, you haven't been listening, Bluebonnet.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/6961/what-percentage-population-gay.aspx

Since 1948, there have been public studies estimating the percent of males who are gay as between 9% and 20%. Needless to say, if your extended family consists of grandparents, uncles, aunts, parents, sisters, brothers, cousins of various degrees, there is a very good chance that there is a gay person in your extended family. Given your attitude, however, I doubt that they would make you their confidant on the subject if they were in the closet.

Doris P who has one gay son, and had one gay second cousin who committed suicide back in the 1970's, mostly because of the strain of staying in the closet.

Thank God your son is in a family that loves and supports him, Doris. I'm very sorry to hear about your cousin.

Bluebonnet, this is one important reason that the new law upsets me. The suicide rate among young gay people is unusually high. Some are afraid of what their families will think, while others fear being outcasts among their schoolmates or in their communities. They usually kill themselves in their homes, and the person who discovers the body is often a sibling or a parent. What terrible sin are all those people and their loved ones paying for? It is almost too painful to contemplate.

In our country, a number of well-known people made videos to tell kids not to give up, because "it gets better." Many of them tell a bit about an incident in their early lives when they thought they couldn't go on. (I don't think everyone who made a video is even gay.) This is what many people want youngsters to know. It's not to recruit them to being gay; it's to recruit them to living life. These videos haven't added to the number of gay people or led to the degeneration of American culture. Instead, they give young people the chance to become productive citizens who contribute to the community. Every country can use all the new young contributors it can get.

 

[dorispulaski]

Thank you, Olympia. Yes, that is exactly right, except Sandy was about 50 when he killed himself. My dad had to identify the body as next of kin in town.

 

[gsk8]

Moderators: please restore this thread to the The Edge. Relegating this to the politics forum--and I know you don't mean to--supports the idea that not talking about the issue is neutral. Despite your intentions, you are taking sides (with the status quo).

Indeed I did mean to. Moving a thread to it's appropriate forum does not mean that anyone is taking sides of any sort. This thread, like many others, was simply moved to the forum it belongs in. Don't read into things.