Reliable Rachael and Reputation

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Good luck to Rachael on those tendons. It takes a while to heal, and she will have to decide to rest up whether or not she makes the GPF.

Michelle comes in 2 different parts. Before the Olys of 98 and after that Olys. She was not in good shape when skating in 98. However, she continued to skate without the necessary surgery until it got to her in 2006. Had she gotten the surgery back in 2002. I truly believe she would have regained her prowess and become the Oly champ in 2006. But that's hindsight.

Sasha had the best of everything to win the 2006 Olys but, to me, she was a head case. Very talented and always writing her acceptance speech before she was nominated. Sad, really.

Kristi, I am not sure about since I was just getting back to watching championships at the time. She seemed to me to be a Tech skater not unlike Slutskaya a few years later.

Olympia - Nice to read someone who has opinions on dancers off ice.

Skating for me borrows much more from Acrobatics than it does from Ballet because acrobatic dancers have always shown pointed toes, turned out knees, super flexibility. Cirque du Soleil is an acrobatic art form.

 

[L'amour]

I think she is very good skater but she needs a new style. I find her programs very boring and safe. She never will stand out if she continue to skate thos predictable programs.

 

[janetfan]

Kristi could do this better than Midori or Tonya:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KplWM...eature=related

It is why they feared her as much as she feared their big jumps. When they turned on the bright lights it was Kristi who could deliver a 3x3 and show beautiful skating skills and artistry.

Why do some people who claim to be lifelong skating fans forget that

Somehow when posters start knocking Sasha and then follow up by knocking Kristi - it feels like Sasha is in very good company.

Kristi and Sasha are part of the heritage of great American skaters.

I hope Rachael can be half as successful as either one of them. That would be a major step up for her, no?

What are these comments knocking Kristi and Sasha - an attempt to make the most foolish posts of the week?

Sasha, for those who have poor memories follows a line of distingusihed American Olympic SILVER medalists including KWAN, Kerrigan, Summers, Fratianne, and yes, even Heiss and Albright were Silver before they won Gold.

I like the Silver medalists just as much as our Gold medalists and Bronze medalists.

How about this - let's have Rachael and Mirai, and the others actually make a Worlds or Olympic podium before we compare them to skaters who did this multiple times.

Otherwise these criticisms seem to show a lack of skating knowledge and perspective..

 

[R.D.]

I don't think there's need to vehemently defend Yamaguchi or Cohen, both of which had fine careers.

I think the talk is about consistency, which we all know Rachel (currently!) has in spades. But another issue is reputation scoring. I'd LIKE to hope that her appearance is not contributing to her being marked down, but I suppose given the history I can't put anything past these judges. I don't think we should go back to 6.0 days as a few suggested, but the Cop definitely needs a lot of work. Should "artistry" be quantified? If so, how much of the total score should it be? Or should we just do away with it altogether and focus on only tech? And if the tech is similar, but one skater relates to the audience stronger, should that win out? Etc.

 

[dorispulaski]

Well, actually what I was on about was the perceived need to be ultra - flexible and the lack of a need to actually be able to skate on an edge, and land your jumps, and have some speed in your skating. I would be more in favor of the latter, and regard the former as a nice-to-have rather than a have-to-have. (In which case, I wish Rachael would quite trying to do some kind of catchfoot spin and work on her speed)

I detest what the search for ultra bendy positions has done to the backs of many of our skaters, who were not naturally flexible.

I would think you wouldn't like it either, but YMMV.

Indeed both Sasha and Kristi had a fine career. And they played to their strengths, which is what everyone should do. I am not trying to minimize their careers.

I just think that that should not be the only way to have a fine career.

 

[janetfan]

Well, actually what I was on about was the perceived need to be ultra - flexible and the lack of a need to actually be able to skate on an edge, and land your jumps, and have some speed in your skating. I would be more in favor of the latter, and regard the former as a nice-to-have rather than a have-to-have. (In which case, I wish Rachael would quite trying to do some kind of catchfoot spin and work on her speed)

I detest what the search for ultra bendy positions has done to the backs of many of our skaters, who were not naturally flexible.

I would think you wouldn't like it either, but YMMV.

Indeed both Sasha and Kristi had a fine career. And they played to their strengths, which is what everyone should do. I am not trying to minimize their careers.

I just think that that should not be the only way to have a fine career.

Tell you what - I will send you a pm because my reply is almost as NASTY as your remarks about Sasha.:scowl:

 

[R.D.]

It would be good for Flatt to compete at the GPF, but if it endangers her health & training, better to stay home.

I would not blame Cohen or any other naturally "bendy" skaters for the phenomenon. Instead, I would blame the scoring system for REWARDING such positions so heavily that it puts those without the ability at a great disadvantage.

 

[Layfan]

Well, actually what I was on about was the perceived need to be ultra - flexible and the lack of a need to actually be able to skate on an edge, and land your jumps, and have some speed in your skating. I would be more in favor of the latter, and regard the former as a nice-to-have rather than a have-to-have. (In which case, I wish Rachael would quite trying to do some kind of catchfoot spin and work on her speed)

I detest what the search for ultra bendy positions has done to the backs of many of our skaters, who were not naturally flexible.

I would think you wouldn't like it either, but YMMV.

Indeed both Sasha and Kristi had a fine career. And they played to their strengths, which is what everyone should do. I am not trying to minimize their careers.

I just think that that should not be the only way to have a fine career.

Kristi was not a particularly flexible person. It doesn't seem to me that she focused much on that aspect of skating _ much less that she relied on that for her career. I don't get the Kristi-Sasha link at all. Michelle reminds me of Kristi but not Sasha.

I wish Rachael would quite trying to do some kind of catchfoot spin and work on her speed

I agree with this. But is it because of the Sasha legacy or the fault of COP requirements? Anyway, like I said, I do think that Rachael seems to have worked on her speed, so that's good. I blame COP for making skaters like Rachael do ugly spin and spiral positions.

It was the perfection of Sasha's positions that truly made her standout, not her flexibility. She couldn't touch her tush with her forehead like Mirai can but her layback position was the most perfect I've never seen.
Mirai might have back problems later on. Sasha's positions are refined and probably protect her back - because she is doing them correctly and NOT forcing it.

I do have to agree with you on skaters trying to force positions. I guess I can see what you mean in that every skater seems to want to end their skate with an I-spin. Anyone who is not named Sasha should NOT do an I-spin. I don't like the way it looks on Yuna or Mirai or anyone else, frankly. Bent standing leg, curved back. Ick. But unfortunately, COP gives them the points.

 

[krenseby]

I think the talk is about consistency, which we all know Rachel (currently!) has in spades..

I think her consistency is really really good. You can rely on her to medal at Nationals; there's no doubt that she can be counted on to do it year after year.

You can rely on her to keep racking up GP medals, season after season.

The only thing you can't expect from her yet is a Worlds medal. I hope it will come to that soon though. Maybe not this season, but I sincerely hope next year or the year after.

 

[R.D.]

I do have to agree with you on skaters trying to force positions. I guess I can see what you mean in that every skater seems to want to end their skate with an I-spin. Anyone who is not named Sasha should NOT do an I-spin. I don't like the way it looks on Yuna or Mirai or anyone else, frankly. Bent standing leg, curved back. Ick. But unfortunately, COP gives them the points.

*throws hands up* Yeah. There we go. Change the scoring system. Stop blaming individual skaters and go after the folk who decided to reward these really bendy positions, at the cost of some skaters' health. It'll be a never-ending debate, really.

 

[Layfan]

*throws hands up* Yeah. There we go. Change the scoring system. Stop blaming individual skaters and go after the folk who decided to reward these really bendy positions, at the cost of some skaters' health. It'll be a never-ending debate, really.

My point is a little different. It's not about whether or not to reward bendy positions. It's about rewarding ugly positions. I can't help it. Just like it drives skaters crazy to see bad jump technique and flat edges and slow skating it drives me crazy to see an arabesque spiral in which a skater is sacrificing the position of her back or hip to get her leg up or a Y-spiral with a bent standing leg, turned in free leg and a lifted hip. (or whatever it's called. The one where the skater holds her foot to her ear as one of her spiral positions.) It's dangerous to force these positions like that and it's ugly. I wish Rachael wouldn't do it but she's not the only one.

 

[colleen o'neill]

:think: I really agree that there should be less emphasis ( somehow ) on the pretzel quotient..I'm quite bored with the obligatory Bielman's, do-nuts, etc. If they can be beautifully done by an extra flexible skater, why not ? But maybe if other ( skating- related ) elements of a spin , or spiral were rewarded to a greater degree more skaters would opt for them, instead. Like extra changes of edges, speed, spinning both directions ? I don't know, I'm not an expert . I'm just thinking out loud here..Likewise with the I spin..I get pretty upset to see a skater go through a well skated and otherwise graceful program only to have it ruined for me by having them grab the toe of their blade in their final spin ,and hit that really clumsy looking position. I often wish the support-the-foot-at-the-ankle position was given a vastly greater reward. But there don't seem to be any penalties for non-aesthetic positions, just rewards for difficulty.

I'm often reminded of a talent show I saw when I was a kid where some girl came out and hopped about the stage en pointe while playing the trumpet. Difficult , sure...but ...good Lord ,why ?

I'm glad Rachael cut her hair , but I wish they'd gone a bit further..sort of pixy-ish. I agree she's better to stay away from balletic themes. While I think she does a good job with the playful bits in her choreography, I think they should stay away from sexy. She may like the music.. but I don't think she and "Slaughter" ( or lots o' rhinestones ) suit each other very well ,and the part I like least in her SP is taking off her shirt.. Rachael naturally has a wholesome, apple-pie , girl-next-door quality that I feel she should embrace. She always makes me think of the early Judy Garland films.. Let her do cute and spunky , and talented. I'd maybe like to see her do some of the more cheery broadway show programs (and less used than Chicago ), like Oklahoma, or Annie get your gun..maybe Pyjama Game or Kiss me Kate. I bet she could knock it out of the park.

 

[janetfan]

:think: I really agree that there should be less emphasis ( somehow ) on the pretzel quotient..I'm quite bored with the obligatory Bielman's, do-nuts, etc. If they can be beautifully done by an extra flexible skater, why not ? But maybe if other ( skating- related ) elements of a spin , or spiral were rewarded to a greater degree more skaters would opt for them, instead. Like extra changes of edges, speed, spinning both directions ? I don't know, I'm not an expert . I'm just thinking out loud here..Likewise with the I spin..I get pretty upset to see a skater go through a well skated and otherwise graceful program only to have it ruined for me by having them grab the toe of their blade in their final spin ,and hit that really clumsy looking position. I often wish the support-the-foot-at-the-ankle position was given a vastly greater reward. But there don't seem to be any penalties for non-aesthetic positions, just rewards for difficulty.

I'm often reminded of a talent show I saw when I was a kid where some girl came out and hopped about the stage en pointe while playing the trumpet. Difficult , sure...but ...good Lord ,why ?

I'm glad Rachel cut her hair , but I wish they'd gone a bit further..sort of pixy-ish. I agree she's better to stay away from balletic themes. While I think she does a good job with the playful bits in her choreography, I think they should stay away from sexy. She may like the music.. but I don't think she and "Slaughter" suit each other very well ,and the part I like least in her SP is taking off her shirt.. Rachel naturally has a wholesome, apple-pie , girl-next-door quality that I feel she should embrace. She always makes me think of the early Judy Garland films.. Let her do cute and spunky , and talented. I'd maybe like to see her do some of the more cheery broadway show programs (and less used than Chicago ), like Oklahoma, or Annie get your gun..maybe Pyjama Game or Kiss me Kate. I bet she could knock it out of the park.

Yes, all of this ^

I liked Rachael's exhibition skate more than anything I have ever seen her perform before. It seemed more natural, not forced or put on - just a girl skating to the music and showing something very nice.

I wish her comp programs were more like that.........

 

[Layfan]

:think: I really agree that there should be less emphasis ( somehow ) on the pretzel quotient..I'm quite bored with the obligatory Bielman's, do-nuts, etc. If they can be beautifully done by an extra flexible skater, why not ? But maybe if other ( skating- related ) elements of a spin , or spiral were rewarded to a greater degree more skaters would opt for them, instead. Like extra changes of edges, speed, spinning both directions ? I don't know, I'm not an expert . I'm just thinking out loud here..Likewise with the I spin..I get pretty upset to see a skater go through a well skated and otherwise graceful program only to have it ruined for me by having them grab the toe of their blade in their final spin ,and hit that really clumsy looking position. I often wish the support-the-foot-at-the-ankle position was given a vastly greater reward. But there don't seem to be any penalties for non-aesthetic positions, just rewards for difficulty.

I'm often reminded of a talent show I saw when I was a kid where some girl came out and hopped about the stage en pointe while playing the trumpet. Difficult , sure...but ...good Lord ,why ?

I'm glad Rachel cut her hair , but I wish they'd gone a bit further..sort of pixy-ish. I agree she's better to stay away from balletic themes. While I think she does a good job with the playful bits in her choreography, I think they should stay away from sexy. She may like the music.. but I don't think she and "Slaughter" suit each other very well ,and the part I like least in her SP is taking off her shirt.. Rachel naturally has a wholesome, apple-pie , girl-next-door quality that I feel she should embrace. She always makes me think of the early Judy Garland films.. Let her do cute and spunky , and talented. I'd maybe like to see her do some of the more cheery broadway show programs (and less used than Chicago ), like Oklahoma, or Annie get your gun..maybe Pyjama Game or Kiss me Kate. I bet she could knock it out of the park.

Colleen, you made the point about positions much more gracefully than me - thanks!

Regarding Rachael, I agree about the classical but her exhibition at SA makes the think she is capable of other styles besides cute and spunky. That skate was I said, soulful and elegant.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Layfan..I think we posted at roughly the same time , and i was thinking you already said what I wanted to say,( re; positions )

I missed the SA exhibitions , I'll have to make a point of looking them up on YouTube.

 

[janetfan]

Colleen, you made the point about positions much more gracefully than me - thanks!

Regarding Rachael, I agree about the classical but her exhibition at SA makes the think she is capable of other styles besides cute and spunky. That skate was I said, soulful and elegant.

A while ago Collen suggested that Rachael and jazz were not a match made in heaven. I disagreed - with the point that Rachael can't ever hope to be a ballerina.

So what - there is more than one style.
I agree with layfan - that Rachael's interpretation and style in her exhibiton program was nice.

Too late for this season but maybe next season Rachael will try something neither classical or jazzy - but something more contemporary where she can skate to the music and let her natural expression shine through.

 

[Mathman]

My point is a little different. It's not about whether or not to reward bendy positions. It's about rewarding ugly positions. I can't help it. Just like it drives skaters crazy to see bad jump technique and flat edges and slow skating it drives me crazy to see an arabesque spiral in which a skater is sacrificing the position of her back or hip to get her leg up or a Y-spiral with a bent standing leg, turned in free leg and a lifted hip. (or whatever it's called. The one where the skater holds her foot to her ear as one of her spiral positions.) It's dangerous to force these positions like that and it's ugly. I wish Rachael wouldn't do it but she's not the only one.

I think the change of rules this year (no scored spiral in the LP) is already making for fewer unattractive positions. Those skaters who can do pretty spirals do them as choreographic and linking elements, and those who struggle with this elements just leave it out. To me, we are already seeing better positions and positions held long enough to enhance the program, instead of the obligitory dog-and-hydrant variation that a level four used to require of all lades.

Did Sasha have the best spirals ever? She's got Peggy Fleming';s vote for sure. But the question always came down to whether the spiral in figure skating is above-the-ankles or below-the-ankles. Sasha had the most exquisite upper body positions. Her detractors carped that this was possible only because she skated on shallow and insecure edges -- even on the flat at times.

Did the CoP force skaters to injure their backs trying for super-bendy positions? When the CoP first came out Michelle tried to get higher levels on her spins by going through all the required contortions and changes oif position. She hurt her back and had to take it easy for a while. Finally she just decided to go for nice positions that she could do comfortably and let the CoP chips fall as they may. She lost a few points on levels.

Yeah, Mirai's and especially Shizuka's backs bend in unearthly places. Orthopedics specialists in Japan made a scientific study by taping sensors along Shizuka's spine to record how she did it. She really did have some some of anatomical anomaly in the discs and tendons in her lower back that made this possible.

 

[janetfan]

Did Sasha have the best spirals ever? She's got Peggy Fleming';s vote for sure. But the question always came down to whether the spiral in figure skating is above-the-ankles or below-the-ankles. Sasha had the most exquisite upper body positions. Her detractors carped that this was possible only because she skated on shallow and insecure edges -- even on the flat at times.

.

I mentioned earlier today that the CoP seemed to be designed with Sasha in mind.

Michelle's spiral in 6.0 was untouchable. In the early CoP era Sasha had Michelle and everyone else outclassed easily on spiral positions and spins.
It was something she was good at from a young age.

If Michelle had grown up in the CoP era Frank would have worked on the CoP's requirements for these elements.

Sasha had them from the time we first saw her.

Maybe a moderator will now blame Sasha for forcing Michelle's retirement

 

[Mathman]

I mentioned earlier today that the CoP seemed to be designed with Sasha in mind.

It certainly seemed that way. And if that was the intent of the ISU, it worked. In the first year of the CoP (2003-04) Sasha jumped out of the box with two Grand Prix performances that scored 197 points each, with program component scores in the 9's.

This made the ISU reconsider. For the next season they revised the judging guidelines for PCS downward to make sure no one would be able to score quite that high -- and no one did, for quite a long time.

 

[janetfan]

It certainly seemed that way. And if that was the intent of the ISU, it worked. In the first year of the CoP (2003-04) Sasha jumped out of the box with two Grand Prix performances that scored 197 points each, with program component scores in the 9's.

This made the ISU reconsider. For the next season they revised the judging guidelines for PCS downward to make sure no one would be able to score quite that high -- and no one did, for quite a long time.

Thanks for not attacking me for stating what seems obvious about Sasha's natural abilties,.....

A question - what did you think of Rachael's exhibition program?
I really liked it and it made me think that as far as her comp programs this season - her team has still not found her best/most natural style.

I am convinced it can never be balletic or too classical - and as far as jazz - no way. Her programs feel gimmicky and cutesy - and no one today has a chance at beating Kanako when it comes to that style.

I liked that Racahel's exhibition program seemed to have a natural feeling and flow - and even showed some nice blade work.
I hope she will show more of this style in the future.

BTW, I feel the same way about Mao - her exhibiton programs are for me some of the greatest and most expressive skating I have ever seen.