Skate America: Pairs' Thoughts?

[chuckm]

Right now, the Japanese team is on the injured list, we haven't seen much from the Chinese pairs, and the Russian team is in ISU limbo.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I'm so happy for Chelsea and Balazs. Like I mentioned a few times, I've been following Chelsea's career in a way since 2014, so I'm thrilled for her.

Yes, Liu/ Nagy have an effortless ease about their skating, and they seem to get along extremely well. They have a lot of style and flair. Clearly, their lifts, twists, and death spiral are their best elements. They are both good spinners too, but they still have to work on unison, as a new team.

Claire Cloutier's recent interview with L/N is very revealing. It's posted in U.S. pairs thread, and in their fan fest. L/N reveal that they both have gymnastics training, which explains why they are so good with their acrobatic elements. Plus, Chelsea must have learned a lot in terms of twist technique (re achieving ultimate height) during her competitive year in China. Fingers-crossed for Chels figuring out and gaining confidence on jump landings. Balasz seems solid on the jumps. They could certainly go far if Chels gains consistency on the jumps and throws.

 

[moonvine]

I think the US is in a world of hurt with the pairs teams we saw in this competition.

These aren’t our top pair teams, with the possible exception of Liu/Nagy. P/F could be but have never put it together, though they had a strong free.

 

[moonvine]

You ask why.....well I have not seen Danny O' Shea and his partner so that may give "me/us" hope. I did not see any US pairs team that I thought could compete on an international level with the Japanese or the Chinese or several other countries. Their choreography is not very evolved, most have problems with the side-by-side jumps, and there isn't the cohesiveness of Knierem and Frazier. Granted there are new relationships out ther and this is just my opinion and feel free to disagree... or you can chalk this up to another building year! Hopefully there IS some potential out there.

Kam/O’Shea won their Challenger. They have added the triple twist, which is solid, and the throw triples, which are a work in progress. Anxious to see how they do in their GP.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

L/N - he's a much stronger skater & it shows

Balasz is stronger on the jumps than Chelsea. Plus, they are a new team, so they are still working on unison in their spins, and adjusting their different techniques on throws. But other than that, they match quite well together. They both have backgrounds in gymnastics, and they are both strong, experienced pairs skaters.

Granted that Chelsea has never been the strongest jumper, but she can jump. I think it's a matter of her figuring out quicker snap getting her free leg around, and perhaps improving spring in order to gain more height to give her a bit more time in the air to get her free leg out without touching down. The long length of her legs I think is a factor in the problems she experiences on jump and throw landings.

 

[4everchan]

Pairs is a funny thing when it comes to SBS jumps. 1) some skaters have issues adjusting to their new partners. 2) some skaters are just not great single skaters though they excel in pairs elements.

Deanna and Maxime had a hard time at first with the triple toe and they were using different entries. They worked really hard to find something that works well together and the ones I saw live at CQÉ were stellar. It took them time but they can individually perform these jumps.

Are Chelsea and Balasz of type 1 or 2 here? How confident should fans be that they are just adjusting or is the SBS jump issue deeper than that?

Skate America wasn't the deepest field in pairs. I doubt there will be many competitions where a team can be on the podium without landing triple jumps.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I did not see any US pairs team that I thought could compete on an international level with the Japanese or the Chinese or several other countries. Their choreography is not very evolved, most have problems with the side-by-side jumps, and there isn't the cohesiveness of Knierem and Frazier.

LOL! We are still waiting to see how Peng will fare with her new partner. Thus, which Chinese teams are you referencing? Olympic champions Sui/ Han have split due to Han retiring. China has notably been trying to rebuild their pairs discipline in recent years. Japan's only top proven team, current World champions, Miura/ Kihara, WD from SA due to Kihara suffering from injury. So, which Japanese teams are you speaking of? If M/K are healthy, every team will be finding it difficult to compete with them, as they are the reigning World champions. But there aren't any other Japanese teams as strong as M/K at the moment.

The US, despite retirements of some veteran pairs teams, still have a number of promising teams on the rise, in addition to mid-level teams who are improving. Right now, US pairs is not lacking in depth and promise, despite veteran retirements.
Pairs, in general, is in a transitional period, with a number of promising international teams who will be jockeying for position over the course of this season and future seasons.

If K/F were still competing, I bet some posters would be finding negative things to say about them. SMH. Factually, the last part of your quoted passage applies to any number of teams worldwide, not just to US pairs teams. In fact, sbs jumps are a difficult element for all pairs teams. Every team can make mistakes on jumps, because jumping in unison is hard. Some teams display more consistency on jumps than others. Choreography and music selection is also a mixed bag for most pairs teams around the world. To say that U.S. teams don't have good choreo is simply being negative and erroneously dismissive.

L/N definitely have decent choreo for a new team. They are still growing as a team in their first season together. P/F have great lifts and interesting choreo. Their problems stem from Plazas' apparent confidence and technique consistency issues on jumps. Ellie/ Danny show great improvement this season in every area. Their choreo is above average, and their costumes are very striking this season. Ellie/ Danny have always been a very lovely, stylish pair, which a lot of teams in the world, do not display. Martins/ Bedard also show improvement and maturity. They are still developing and working on their confidence. How they performed at SA is a success for them as a young team new to seniors.

Chan/Howe are an established team with great prowess. If Spencer is healed, and if Emily is also in a stronger situation with her ankle issues, C/H can contend at the top. Plus, they have good choreo, superb style, and dramatic flair. On the horizon, McBeath/ Parkman and Efimova/ Mitrofanov look to be very promising, highly competitive teams, as they gain increased experience as partners. The U.S. also has other developing teams, including Scott/ Siianytsia, and Digerness/ Sadusky, so there is no lack of depth in the U.S. discipline.

 

[moonvine]

You ask why.....well I have not seen Danny O' Shea and his partner so that may give "me/us" hope. I did not see any US pairs team that I thought could compete on an international level with the Japanese or the Chinese or several other countries. Their choreography is not very evolved, most have problems with the side-by-side jumps, and there isn't the cohesiveness of Knierem and Frazier. Granted there are new relationships out ther and this is just my opinion and feel free to disagree... or you can chalk this up to another building year! Hopefully there IS some potential out there.

I love Ellie and Danny.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Pairs, in general, is undergoing a transitional phase. Things are in constant flux with injuries, retirements, and teams forming and then splitting before they even compete. As well, it is always the case that top, favored teams can make mistakes and still reach the podium. While Lia/ Trennt were clean in the sp, where I think they should have placed ahead of Hocke/ Kunkel, Lia had an unexpected fall in the fp, and they won silver. H/K won medals on the GP last season, with falls. Two Italian teams were on the podium at 2023 Euros with multiple mistakes (not an unusual occurrence).

Not to mention Miura/ Kihara being overly coddled at 2022 Worlds, with a very faulty fp, yet still unfairly winning silver over James/Radford who settled for bronze with a better fp (and J/R despite having errors in sp were still strong, while M/K were held up by the judges in their sp, which had miscues).

Plenty of times Russian teams made mistakes and were on the podium. No team is completely infallible. There are competitions where most teams are clean and it is exciting to watch. But that is not a guaranteed occurrence, no matter how experienced or deep the field happens to be.

Skate Canada, coming up, looks promising with Stel/Des; Golub/ Gioto; Bec/Guar; the Hungarian team; Laurin/ Ethier; and Brooke/Ben, et al.

 

[4everchan]

Pairs, in general, is undergoing a transitional phase. Things are in constant flux with injuries, retirements, and teams forming and then splitting before they even compete. As well, it is always the case that top, favored teams can make mistakes and still reach the podium. While Lia/ Trennt were clean in the sp, where I think they should have placed ahead of Hocke/ Kunkel, Lia had an unexpected fall in the fp, and they won silver. H/K won medals on the GP last season, with falls. Two Italian teams were on the podium at 2023 Euros with multiple mistakes (not an unusual occurrence).

Plenty of times Russian teams made mistakes and were on the podium. No team is completely infallible. There are competitions where most teams are clean and it is exciting to watch. But that is not a guaranteed occurrence, no matter how experienced or deep the field happens to be.

Skate Canada, coming up, looks promising with Stel/Des; Golub/ Gioto; Bec/Guar; the Hungarian team; Laurin/ Ethier; and Brooke/Ben, et al.

Not what I am talking about. Yup....even the world champions can fall.. and win. What I am talking about is realistic planned content.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Not what I am talking about. Yup....even the world champions can fall.. and win. What I am talking about is realistic planned content.

You specifically referenced Liu/ Nagy in regard to their jump elements. And then you said, "I doubt there will be many competitions where teams will be on the podium without landing triple jumps."

I pointed out that it's not unusual for teams to get on the podium with more than one mistake. It depends on a number of factors, but plenty of skaters reach the podium without perfect programs. This is especially the case when skaters possess other superb strengths. Liu/ Nagy can and did land triple jumps, despite Chels' obvious issues with jump landings, more than likely due to her long legs presenting challenges. In other aspects (twist, lifts, death spiral, smooth transitions, style, and connection) L/N demonstrate high level skills.

I'm not sure what you mean by "realistic planned content" in the context of your previous comments.

 

[4everchan]

I'm not sure what you mean by "realistic planned content" in the context of your previous comments.

Realistic planned content means exactly what it reads like. I will transfer it to singles skating so you can understand. There are a few men who have absolutely never landed their quad jump but have kept trying them in their program. Sure, they may land it once in a while in practice but have never landed it in competition. To me, it's not realistic planned content. It's a gamble. With some pairs right now, this is how it feels with triple jumps. It's not just L/N. I remember some Chinese pairs facing the same issue. Are these people really able to land their triple jump consistently ? Will they keep falling or doubling? And my comment still holds true : how often do we see a team with absolutely no triple succeeded across both SP and LP win a medal? Sure, their other elements are great, but it's very unusual. I am not saying that skaters cannot fall nor make mistakes. I am talking about medalling without any landed triples. Time and only time will tell if how things evolve for L/N.

 

[noskates]

There sure are a lot of "ifs" in this discussion. Pairs is and always has been my favorite discipline. And I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer - I just don't see a lot of depth in US Pairs. Part of the problem is the pairs don't stay together long enough to develop that 'oneness." I hope I'm proven wrong.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Realistic planned content means exactly what it reads like. I will transfer it to singles skating so you can understand. There are a few men who have absolutely never landed their quad jump but have kept trying them in their program. Sure, they may land it once in a while in practice but have never landed it in competition. To me, it's not realistic planned content. It's a gamble. With some pairs right now, this is how it feels with triple jumps. It's not just L/N. I remember some Chinese pairs facing the same issue. Are these people really able to land their triple jump consistently ? Will they keep falling or doubling? And my comment still holds true : how often do we see a team with absolutely no triple succeeded across both SP and LP win a medal? Sure, their other elements are great, but it's very unusual. I am not saying that skaters cannot fall nor make mistakes. I am talking about medalling without any landed triples. Time and only time will tell if how things evolve for L/N.

Yeah sure. Uh huh. Okay. FYI: Liu/ Nagy have a lot of quality elements and great style, which are the areas where they build points. Chels landed a triple at SA, which was slightly off-balance, but she still landed it (judges obviously scored it minus GOE). However, she's not double-footing as badly as she used. So, their coaching team is clearly working with Chels to try and resolve the landing difficulties.

It's obvious that jumps are not Chels' strong suit. And in the recent interview with Claire Cloutier, Chels & Balasz admitted they are working on adjusting different techniques on their throws. At the same time, they are without a doubt, a top prospect in pairs for U.S. figsk. It's a bonus that they seem to have a great connection on and off-the-ice. They look happy together, which is apparently true for Lia & Trennt too (the so-called "golden retrievers" at their training rink ).

Anyone who doesn't like Lui/ Nagy, so be it. That won't negate what they have the potential to achieve. We don't know what will happen. I saw a comment from a pairs fan who said that Chels has reached the limit of what she can do jump-wise. What a statement though. That ignores what she is trying to work on, and where she is showing minor improvements. I will keep my fingers-crossed for Chels fixing her jump landings, and simply enjoy this team growing together. It is about staying present-focused, because the future is indeterminate in so many respects these days.

For e.g., Nic & Emma made a surprising but right decision for themselves personally to move on to show skating with HOI. I wish them success and continued happiness. Reports are that they are pleased with the choice they made. In addition, I'm wondering whether Scott/ Siianytsia are still together? Their combined IG is apparently no longer up. Plus, they withdrew from a NQS competition, which was required for them to compete at U.S. Nationals. I hope we find out soon what's happening for Haley & Danil.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

There sure are a lot of "ifs" in this discussion. Pairs is and always has been my favorite discipline. And I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer - I just don't see a lot of depth in US Pairs. Part of the problem is the pairs don't stay together long enough to develop that 'oneness." I hope I'm proven wrong.

One of the issues though is that you seem to be focused on the surface of things, and simply repeating wrong stuff that has been said in the past. You saying that U.S. pairs doesn't have depth begs the question, Do you understand what depth means? What do think depth in pairs means? For me it means having a number of promising and proven teams. The U.S. pairs discipline has that. They have so many teams, they are going to have trouble giving them all sufficient competitive opportunities, so they can develop and find success. Plus, the U.S. pairs discipline has a strong and significant legacy, which many fans are either ignorant of, or dismissive of.

If the U.S. didn't have so many teams, despite losing a lot of veteran teams, U.S. fed would not have promised to release Gabbie Izzo to Canada. You solely singling out the U.S. as having teams that don't stay together, is also a go-to criticism which is overdone. In fact, around the world, ice dance and pairs teams are constantly splitting, re-pairing, splitting, re-forming, finding other partners, retiring out of the blue, or due to injuries, or due to wanting to pursue education and/ or other interests.

Particularly in juniors, it's difficult to keep skaters together due to growth issues, family issues, conflicting interests, financial challenges, etc., etc. This is not confined to the U.S. And, there are teams globally who do stay together from a young age for the long haul, or who form later in their careers, and magic happens (e.g., Sale/Pelletier; Calalang/Johnson; Knierim/ Frazier).

FYI: Pairs and ice dance athletes developing or possessing 'oneness,' is extremely rare. Tai & Randy famously had 'it,' but their story is rare and magical, and challenge-filled altogether. In fact, they wrote the book about 'oneness' in pairs figure skating! Some teams have a connection right away that's indefinable and can't be taught, or they have the potential to hone and to develop a connection. Meanwhile, other teams can have matching lines and be excellent technicians, yet struggle throughout their career to develop a connection on the ice, and to select the right music and packaging, e.g., Tarasova/ Morosov.

This is not a simplistic topic, easily discussed in soundbites. Pairs skating and partnership issues in skating are a very mixed bag.

 

[noskates]

I realize there is an expert in the house but I am NOT focussing on surface issues. I've been following pairs for as long as I can remember and I am also not repeating things just because they were said in the past - and with 7 years of college and several degrees I can assure you that I know the meaning of depth. Yes the US has a lot of teams coming up - operative words....coming up.

I sincerely hope there are teams out there in the woods that are going to come forth and do good things. I'm just saying I haven't seen it yet other than Danny and Spencer and their partners....and their effectiveness on the international scene this year remains to be seen.

(Sometimes pretentiousness is difficult to swallow.)

 

[4everchan]

Yeah sure. Uh huh. Okay. FYI: Liu/ Nagy have a lot of quality elements and great style, which are the areas where they build points. Chels landed a triple at SA, which was slightly off-balance, but she still landed it (judges obviously scored it minus GOE). However, she's not double-footing as badly as she used. So, their coaching team is clearly working with Chels to try and resolve the landing difficulties.

It's obvious that jumps are not Chels' strong suit. And in the recent interview with Claire Cloutier, Chels & Balasz admitted they are working on adjusting different techniques on their throws. At the same time, they are without a doubt, a top prospect in pairs for U.S. figsk. It's a bonus that they seem to have a great connection on and off-the-ice. They look happy together, which is apparently true for Lia & Trennt too (the so-called "golden retrievers" at their training rink ).

Anyone who doesn't like Lui/ Nagy, so be it. That won't negate what they have the potential to achieve. We don't know what will happen. I saw a comment from a pairs fan who said that Chels has reached the limit of what she can do jump-wise. What a statement though. That ignores what she is trying to work on, and where she is showing minor improvements. I will keep my fingers-crossed for Chels fixing her jump landings, and simply enjoy this team growing together. It is about staying present-focused, because the future is indeterminate in so many respects these days.

For e.g., Nic & Emma made a surprising but right decision for themselves personally to move on to show skating with HOI. I wish them success and continued happiness. Reports are that they are pleased with the choice they made. In addition, I'm wondering whether Scott/ Siianytsia are still together? Their combined IG is apparently no longer up. Plus, they withdrew from a NQS competition, which was required for them to compete at U.S. Nationals. I hope we find out soon what's happening for Haley & Danil.

I am well aware of LN's strengths but also very aware of their weaknesses. No need to mention Nic and Emma in this discussion. They certainly were not at Skam

 

[readernick]

Last season pairs started out bad but ended with a great competition at Worlds. I believe we well see similar progression this year. The two clear favorites/ best pairs from last year aren’t going to be competing for a GPF spot and one is likely retired so that leaves the door open for others to improve.

The chasing group at Worlds including the Italians, the Canadians S-D/ D, and last years second American pair C/H didn’t compete here.

So, basically I think some posters are being unnecessarily negative.

Right now, there are a few established pairs and then a lot of new pairs who all have their own strengths and weaknesses which will need to be improved on. The top teams here all fall into the second category. Time will tell who will grow.

 

[2sk8]

Balasz is stronger on the jumps than Chelsea. Plus, they are a new team, so they are still working on unison in their spins, and adjusting their different techniques on throws. But other than that, they match quite well together. They both have backgrounds in gymnastics, and they are both strong, experienced pairs skaters.

Granted that Chelsea has never been the strongest jumper, but she can jump. I think it's a matter of her figuring out quicker snap getting her free leg around, and perhaps improving spring in order to gain more height to give her a bit more time in the air to get her free leg out without touching down. The long length of her legs I think is a factor in the problems she experiences on jump and throw landings.

I was referring to his actual skating skills, eg, edge quality and control, power off his edges. Not just jumps. I believe he's a much stronger skater.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I realize there is an expert in the house but I am NOT focussing on surface issues. I've been following pairs for as long as I can remember and I am also not repeating things just because they were said in the past - and with 7 years of college and several degrees I can assure you that I know the meaning of depth. Yes the US has a lot of teams coming up - operative words....coming up.

I sincerely hope there are teams out there in the woods that are going to come forth and do good things. I'm just saying I haven't seen it yet other than Danny and Spencer and their partners....and their effectiveness on the international scene this year remains to be seen.

(Sometimes pretentiousness is difficult to swallow.)

Yes, and there's no need to project, or to label. I can agree that this is a transitional phase in pairs across-the-board, not just in the U.S. I do not agree with the over-negativity of your comments, especially as directed toward the U.S. pairs discipline.

In terms of what we have seen so far, figure skating is hard, and pairs skating is harder. It's too early to assess exactly how the pairs landscape is going to look in a few years, either in the U.S. or internationally. Patience is probably our best option, as fans (and for athletes and coaches too).