Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

[jenaj]

Look at Yu Na's GOEs here. http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2008/WC08_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
Has she really gotten that much better or has judging gotten easier?

 

[Moment]

True, but I would amend this to say "No female skater has ever done a better 3lz-3t and 3F in terms of pure takeoff technique." I say that only b/c I think Gracie Gold could give Yu-Na's 3lz-3t a run for its money...that is if she can land it. But the same isn't true for her flip. It's tough to find a good jumper with both a solid lutz and solid flip; it's usually one or the other. Gracie has a great lutz but her flip is consistently hit with edge calls.

Gracie pre-rotates on her toe jumps takeoff, whch is less than perfect technique. She does this by pivoting her toe pick. She is good, yes, but not very good. Definitely not in the same league as Yuna.

She is also inconsistent with her landings because they often do not start from the toe pick. Her 3S at Worlds shows this can lead to a stepout.

 

[gkelly]

Look at Yu Na's GOEs here. http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2008/WC08_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
Has she really gotten that much better or has judging gotten easier?

I think the judging has gotten easier -- in the sense that judges are more willing to give +2s and +3s for strong elements than they were 5+ years ago.

Not everything has gotten easier, though. Judges, or the tech panels, may also be harder on certain errors now than they were then.

(Not underrotation, though -- the new intermediate penalty for 91-180 degrees is much less punitive than complete downgrading was at that time.)

And I think there's a slight trend toward more willingness now than ca. 2008 to give high (9+) PCS for strong performances, and toward more effort to separate the different PCS for the same performance, but there's still more room for improvement there. So that could work for or against any particular skater depending how unbalanced their skills are, in which direction.

 

[Ven]

I scored Yu-Na higher in the SP by almost 2 points and lower in the FS by about 8 points. The majority of those 8 points came from GOE. IMO (purely my opinion) none of Yu-Na's elements were worth +3 that night. I'm sure hoards of people will disagree but that's how I felt. I thought her 3-3 and toe jumps were very good (+2) and her final spin was very good (+2).

Well everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but just going off memory I'm not sure how anyone could score her first 3-3 anything but +3. It was as glorious a 3-3 as I have ever seen. If it wasn't worth +3 then, in my opinion, there should be no need for +3s at all. I might even feel the same about some of the other elements in her program, but I can remember those very first jumps off the top of my head without even looking.

 

[kwanatic]

Gracie pre-rotates on her toe jumps takeoff, whch is less than perfect technique. She does this by pivoting her toe pick. She is good, yes, but not very good. Definitely not in the same league as Yuna.

She is also inconsistent with her landings because they often do not start from the toe pick. Her 3S at Worlds shows this can lead to a stepout.

This is the first I've heard about Gold pre-rotating...I'm intrigued.

Gracie's biggest issue is her inability to remain focused and land her jumps consistently. She was hit or miss all season long so hopefully she'll find a decent level of consistent this season. That's the main thing holding her and so many of the other ladies back. Consistency.

You know Yu-Na was never really known for having perfect programs. She'd have a small mistake here or there but she usually had either a cushion from the SP or enough firepower in the FS to make up for it. Her FS at nationals and then both performances at worlds this year were pretty much perfect. I wonder if that kind of consistency will carry over into next season?

 

[Ven]

You know Yu-Na was never really known for having perfect programs. She'd have a small mistake here or there but she usually had either a cushion from the SP or enough firepower in the FS to make up for it. Her FS at nationals and then both performances at worlds this year were pretty much perfect. I wonder if that kind of consistency will carry over into next season?

She's almost 23 now and like all of us, probably a much different person and much different skater than when she was younger. She probably has tremendous confidence in her abilities since she distanced herself from the field and won the world championship, olympic gold, etc. I think it's to be expected that Yuna's skating style and abilities and personality would change as she gets older, just like anyone else.

 

[kwanatic]

Well everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but just going off memory I'm not sure how anyone could score her first 3-3 anything but +3. It was as glorious a 3-3 as I have ever seen. If it wasn't worth +3 then, in my opinion, there should be no need for +3s at all. I might even feel the same about some of the other elements in her program, but I can remember those very first jumps off the top of my head without even looking.

I think +3s for the combo may have been justified. Like I said, I'd be a tough judge I only gave out a total of three +3s for the 10 people I scored and I didn't give out too many +2s either, especially for jumps. I guess I'm not as generous as some people might be. *shrugs*

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Gracie pre-rotates on her toe jumps takeoff, whch is less than perfect technique. She does this by pivoting her toe pick. She is good, yes, but not very good. Definitely not in the same league as Yuna.

If you watch replay, every single skater prerotates their toe jumps. Bad technique would be Kimmie, who basically did toe axels. Gracie does not do that.

 

[MiRé]

Why bother discussing GOEs on perfect program that i'm 100% positive everyone would agree that it deserves number 1 spot?
instead someone please explain to me how Mao got 2 +1s on her two footed triple axel.

 

[kwanatic]

She's almost 23 now and like all of us, probably a much different person and much different skater than when she was younger. She probably has tremendous confidence in her abilities since she distanced herself from the field and won the world championship, olympic gold, etc. I think it's to be expected that Yuna's skating style and abilities and personality would change as she gets older, just like anyone else.

I don't think she's changed that much since 2010 which is what is so remarkable. The only decline I see is in her spins which aren't as strong as they were back in 2010 or even in 2011 (when several of them actually looked better than in 2010). She's maintained her jumps and her positioning though and I find that to be amazing.

My question was regarding her consistency. She had issues in the SP at nationals but her FS was spot-on...and then aside from the bogus flip call in the SP at worlds, she was perfect in both programs there. She just seems a lot more relaxed and at ease to me...it didn't really seem like a big deal for her. Everyone else had this tension to them when they skated but Yu-Na just sort of breezed through it all like a walk in the park. It's an incredible quality to have while skating. I'm wondering if she'll maintain that or if some of the pressure/expectation will start to get to her.

 

[Ven]

Btw not that my opinion matters but here are the GOE's I would give for Yuna's Les Mis FS.

3Lz + 3T = +3
3F = +3
FCCoSp = +2
3S = +3
StSq = +2
3Lz = +3
2A + 2T + 2Lo = +2
3S + 2T = +2
LSp = +2
ChSq = +3
2A = +2
CCoSp = +2

And PCS of 9-10 every bit deserved!

 

[kwanatic]

Why bother discussing GOEs on perfect program that i'm 100% positive everyone would agree that it deserves number 1 spot?
instead someone please explain to me how Mao got 2 +1s on her two footed triple axel.

Well, for my own 2 cents it didn't look 2-footed to me. Mao checks her free leg late b/c she lands most of her jumps with her ankles crossed...that's what it looked like to me in realtime. Knowing how she lands her jumps, it looked like a cleanly executed jump to me. But it's obvious from the spread of GOE that no one was 100% sure what happened there...

 

[Ven]

She just seems a lot more relaxed and at ease to me...it didn't really seem like a big deal for her. Everyone else had this tension to them when they skated but Yu-Na just sort of breezed through it all like a walk in the park.

She's skated in 30 international events and finished on the podium all 30 times, winning 21 times. She's won 2 World Championships, and the Olympic Gold Medal. She's one of the greatest skaters if not the greatest skater of all time. She's accomplished everything she could possibly ever accomplish in figure skating, and she is now a grown woman. I would expect her to be confident and have a different mentality than a teenager who is still trying to achieve their career goals. The first skate you mentioned this past year might have just been nerves from returning after not competing for so long.

 

[Mathman]

I scored the top 10 ladies at worlds this year (I posted all of the scores/explanations on my blog.

Link?

When you computed your GOEs, did you follow the ISU rules for how many bullets must be satisfied for a +1, +2, and +3? Or just go by your intuition and experience, good , better, best?

I think that is the crux of the disagreement. Should we follow the ISU rule book or instead go by what was referred to above as common sense?

Here is a textbook example. Yuna's triple Lutz-triple toe combination. To me, common sense says this is the most nearly perfect performance of this element ever. IMHO any scoring system that does not give this element the maximum, right there it shows that the system is all wet.

Here are the ISU bullets. She needs 6 for +3 GOE.

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

1) no. A perfect entry, but not unexpected, creative, or any more difficult than any Lutz jump is.
2) no. Nothing much.
3) no.
4) yes.
5) borderline. Not particularly creative, extension is fine.
6) yes.
7) yes. (That is, the element had the appearance of effortlessness. Nothing in skating is without effort. )
8) not particularly. The music is playing away in the background without much going on right then. OK, but nothing special.

By the ISU rules this barely qualifies for a +2. But it obviously deserves a +3. So who are we going to believe, me or the ISU rule book?

 

[Ven]

Btw that brings me to another point, I see some of the Yuna haters think she's not emotional enough on the ice. Let's look at two different skates:

1. 2009 Wolds FS -- Yuna was 18 years old and still climbing the mountaintop, trying to prove herself and accomplish her goals. It must have been a tremendous experience for her to go out and finally win the world championship, skating so well, and you can see how she was genuinely smiling and reacting throughout her performance.

2. 2013 Worlds FS -- Yuna now 22 years old and has already accomplished everything she can accomplish in figure skating. She no longer has to prove herself or validate all of her hard work. It must be much more personal now for her when she skates, and I think it's silly to expect her to go out there and skate like she's a 16 or 18 year old girl who hasn't won anything yet and is delighted and excited that she's skating so well.

If you can view her performance through the proper context, I thought it was very emotional and touching.

 

[kwanatic]

She's skated in 30 international events and finished on the podium all 30 times, winning 21 times. She's won 2 World Championships, and the Olympic Gold Medal. She's one of the greatest skaters if not the greatest skater of all time. She's accomplished everything she could possibly ever accomplish in figure skating, and she is now a grown woman. I would expect her to be confident and have a different mentality than a teenager who is still trying to achieve their career goals. The first skate you mentioned this past year might have just been nerves from returning after not competing for so long.

I know what she's done...I've witnessed it

I'll just glean your answer from your last two posts though: Yu-Na is older now, has accomplished everything and therefore doesn't need to be nervous.

I agree.

 

[kwanatic]

Link?

When you computed your GOEs, did you follow the ISU rules for how many bullets must be satisfied for a +1, +2, and +3? Or just go by your intuition and experience, good , better, best?

I think that is the crux of the disagreement. Should we follow the ISU rule book or instead go by what was referred to above as common sense?

Here is a textbook example. Yuna's triple Lutz-triple toe combination. To me, common sense says this is the most nearly perfect performance of this element ever. IMHO any scoring system that does not give this element the maximum, right there it shows that the system is all wet.

Here are the ISU bullets. She needs 6 for +3 GOE.

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

1) no. A perfect entry, but not unexpected, creative, or any more difficult than any Lutz jump is.
2) no. Nothing much.
3) no.
4) yes.
5) borderline. Not particularly creative, extension is fine.
6) yes.
7) yes. (That is, the element had the appearance of effortlessness. Nothing in skating is without effort. )
8) not particularly. The music is playing away in the background without much going on right then. OK, but nothing special.

By the ISU rules this barely qualifies for a +2. But it obviously deserves a +3. So who are we going to believe, me or the ISU rule book?

I usually do go by sight. Having been watching skating for the last 20 years and having familiarized myself with the system, I feel I'm a rather knowledgeable fan I honestly think that's how most of the judges do it. I agree w/ your assessment but I do think a +2 is fair...and I even get why some people think a +3 is justifiable as well.

Here's the link to my blog (Just so the mods know, someone asked for this!)

www.thenakedice.blogspot.com (The post should be on that first page; there's a part one (SP) and part two (FS/Final))

 

[Mathman]

I've conceded all their points (and any other points that they will make, now and forevermore) and disengaging from this thread.

I am constantly lying in wait for an opportunity to quote Rhett Butler, in declining a duel: "I apologize again for all my shortcomings."

 

[cornell08]

You know Yu-Na was never really known for having perfect programs. She'd have a small mistake here or there but she usually had either a cushion from the SP or enough firepower in the FS to make up for it. Her FS at nationals and then both performances at worlds this year were pretty much perfect. I wonder if that kind of consistency will carry over into next season?

I think this has more to do with the fact that she is skating with far less pressure than when she was gunning for her first world or olympic gold. So I don't think this consistency is going to change next season.

 

[deedee1]

Okay the dreadful Olympic season here we go again...:sarcasm:
My wish right now is that each and every one of threads will not end up discussing only on the same skater(s) time and time again, and that GS Forum won't get crushed down once Free skates Sochi are over. We've been there before, you guys...:no: After Vancouver, a number of nice GS members seemingly decided not to come back to the forum discussions, remember? In my lurker days, I used to enjoy reading their posts so much, especially of those from European countries that are full of significance and sharp wits (to be honest, I loved even twisted ones ). I miss them a lot. I don't want to see it happen again. What I would fear is I might be one of them.