Team Event: Pairs SP Report - 2014 Winter Olympics | Golden Skate

Team Event: Pairs SP Report - 2014 Winter Olympics

Joined
Jan 22, 2004
XXII Olympic Winter Games
Team Event
Pairs – Short Program

Result (OWG Website)
Detailed Classification
Judges Scores
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_TeamPairs_SP_P_Scores.pdf

Links to other Olympics Reports:
Team Event - Ladies SP
Team Event - Men SP
Team Event - Ice Dance SD

Disclaimer:
The aim of these reports is to attempt to look critically at skaters’ performances, try to pay close attention to detail and evaluate each of the technical elements, as well as the program components aspect, on their own merit, whilst attempting to avoid getting anchored by things like noticeable mistakes, an overall ‘wow effect’ or skaters’ reputation, as much as possible.

What that means is that a skater can, for example, fall but execute everything else in their program to very high standard. Or make a great overall impression but commit numerous mistakes, once you look more closely. The point to those hypothetical examples is, it’s never just black or white and there are always both positive and negative aspects to every performance. What makes figure skating different from any other sport is its complexity and the numerous layers you can uncover. Finally, in an ideal world, skaters’ past accomplishments should have no bearing on how their current performances are evaluated.

The GOE values listed next to the elements are ones I would consider appropriate based on the quality of execution of that element. I’m very much a stickler and the numbers will probably be likely lower on average than those handed out by the actual judging panel, but I try my best to hold all skaters to the same standard. They’re also intended to give you a general impression of how each element was executed. I try to describe each of the elements in detail but there's not always time to be as precise as I would like (and sometimes the element is simply ‘ok’ and there isn’t really much to say about it).

I’ve added suggested PCS, as per marcolee925's request but given the lack of framework for establishing those, they are to be taken with a grain of salt. And as you can see, avoiding anchoring on those is very difficult (it is an unconscious process, after all).

Of course, it’s impossible to notice everything and figure skating is inherently subjective so any questions, comments, criticism and different points of view are all very welcome. I am always grateful for any feedback and an opportunity to look at things from a different perspective.

Issues with the Judging:

Some of the major problems with judging in figure skating in general are:
- judges getting anchored and giving very similar PCS and GOE instead of using the whole range of marks to reward each element and program component on its own merit (the ‘higher ranked’ the skaters are, the higher will those marks be all across the board)
- lack of attention to detail resulting in mistakes not being noticed unless they are ‘in-your-face’ obvious

In pair skating the latter issue is very apparent on the triple twists. There are still very few teams that can perform a clean triple twist and you rarely see that element executed cleanly. Common mistakes on the triples twist are the lady landing on the man’s shoulder (-1 to -2 deduction) and the man exiting on two feet (-1 deduction). Sometimes you also see the rotation not being fully completed which isn’t listed as a deduction on its own but you could argue it could be considered as a ‘weak landing.’ Those mistakes don’t seem to get noticed.

The issue with how double twists are being judged is that the judges seem to let the difficulty anchor and restrict their GOE. So even if a double twist is performed to a very high standard, it might see a +1 and an occasional +2 but it won’t see the kind of GOE that triple twists can receive. This results in a possibility of skaters can receiving a higher grade of execution for a flawed triple twist than for a clean double twist, executed to a high standard.

On the lifts there occasionally can be issues with both the lifting process (like lack of flow and difficulty in changing positions) and the footwork (scratchy, insecure edges, lack of flow and speed, poor ice coverage). When those issues do happen, they don’t seem to get reflected in the marks and you usually see +1 or +2 marks across the board for every lift, based on how ‘high ranked’ the team is.

Fianally, it seems to me that on the twist lifts and throw jumps, instead of looking at all possible positive features, the judges seem to mainly consider the height (and distance) with +2 being reserved for those elements which appear ‘very big.’ But that’s just one out of possible eight positive features.

1. TAKAHASHI Narumi / KIHARA Ryuichi /JPN/
Samson and Delilah by Camille Saint-Saens

3salchow [-2] – off-synch on the take-off, she under-rotated over 1/4 and was a little off-balance on the landing
2twist [-1] – not a lot of height, two-footed
step in lasso to one hand [-2] – tentative footwork, two-footed landing
throw 3salchow [-3] – quite long and cautious entry, two-footed landing
catchfoot spiral into back inside death spiral [-1] – took her a while to assume the position on entry, edge a little wobbly in the second revolution
straight line step sequence [0] – good flow but quite slow
pair change combination spin [1] – quite good rotation speed

They have been skating together less than a year and Kihara hasn’t had any prior pairs experience. Taking that into consideration, they have done very well to have already learned as much as they did. However, this also means that their skill level is still quite low. The elements weren’t executed to a high standard and they were also slow and cautious throughout. Their edges are actually very decent so they probably kept the speed low in order to maintain control. The choreography was quite basic and whilst there were some arm movements here and there, they looked like an afterthought and there wasn’t much relation to the music with the main focus seemingly being on making it through all of the elements.

Suggested PCS:
SS 5.25 TR 2.75 PE 3.75 CH 4.00 IN 3.75

2. Stacey KEMP / David KING /GBR/
Piano Concerto No. 1 by Petr Ilyich Tchaikovski

3twist [-3] – under-rotated, landed on his shoulder, her landing edge was scratchy and he was on two-feet
2axel [-3] – she underrotated over 1/2 and her landing was shaky
ina bauers into spread eagles into axel lasso to changes of position and one hand [0] – lifting was ok but his footwork was a little tentative
throw 3flip [-3] – fall
shoot-the-duck(not extended well) into back inside death spiral [-1] – edge a little weak
into pair change combination spin [0]
straight line step sequence [0]

Their basics aren’t very strong but they make up for it somewhat, showing good commitment to presenting their programs and their skating has an ebullient quality. Unfortunately in this performance, they seemed a little tense.

The program was decently choreographed, with them setting the mood at the start well and showing a few transitions, appropriate to the music.

Suggested PCS:
SS 4.50 TR 5.00 PE 5.00 CH 5.50 IN 5.75

3. Julia LAVRENTIEVA / Yuri RUDYK /UKR/
City of the Birth by Armand Amar

dance lift to steps to 2twist [1] – solid catch
2flip [-1] –good height, hers was well balanced but he stepped out (+1-2)
throw 3loop [-1] – slightly off balance and a scratchy edge on the landing
spread eagle and forward spiral into axel lasso to change of position and one hand to difficult dismount [0]
catchfoot spiral and spread eagle into back inside death spiral with change of hold [0] – decent position
to pair change combination spin [0]
straight line step sequence [-1] – slow and tentative

Their speed seemed decent but they skated through the music with no projection or emotional involvement. It looked like their only focus was on executing their technical elements.

Suggested PCS:
SS 4.75 TR 4.50 PE 3.50 CH 3.50 IN 3.25

4. Maylin WENDE / Daniel WENDE /GER/
November Rain performed by David Garrett

coe spread eagles into 2twist with arms above [2] – quite high, solid catch
3toe [-1] – off-synch, slightly shaky landings from both (especially him)
spread eagles into axel lasso to one hand to change of position [1]
throw 3flip [2] – high, solid landing
straight line step sequence [1] – quite good edges and flow
shoot-the-duck into back inside death spiral with change of hold [1] – decent position and flow (he raised his position a bit when changing hold so this feature probably wasn’t counted)
into pair change combination spin [0] – decent positions and rotation speed but they got very slightly off-centred in the last two positions (+1-1)

It was a confident performance and the program flowed well from start to finish. The choreography was a little bland, however. It seemed appropriate enough to the music but it could have used more highlights and character.

Suggested PCS:
SS 6.75 TR 5.25 PE 6.75 CH 6.25 IN 6.25

5. PENG Cheng / ZHANG Hao /CHN/
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (soundtrack) by Tan Dun

3toe [1] – good height and solid landings from both
L spiral into back inside death spiral holding foot and then releasing it [2] – good (and very difficult) position from both partners, flowed very well from start to finish
to pair change combination spin [1] – quite good positions and rotation speed
dance lift into 3twist [3] – fantastic height, very solid catch
throw 3loop [1] – shaky landing but very good height and distance
straight line step sequence [0]
backward lasso to changes of position and one hand to difficult dismount [0] – strong lifting with the changes of position flowing well for her positions were poorly extended and he was on two-feet on the landing

They have clearly been working on their basic skating, posture, carriage and lines and whilst they’re still somewhat deficient in those areas (and she still has a lot of catching up to do), they’ve made a clear improvement since last season. The program was well choreographed with an interesting element layout and very good attention to detail (no ‘empty spots’) but the relation between their movement and the music was questionable (the mood seemed to be reflected decently enough but I am not sure about the timing).

Suggested PCS:
SS 6.25 TR 5.75 PE 6.50 CH 7.50 IN 5.75

6. Marissa CASTELLI / Simon SHNAPIR /USA/
Black Magic Woman by Santana
Smooth by Santana

3twist [1] – good height, his free foot was a late coming out but there was hardly any weight on it and the catch was quite solid
3salchow [-3] – take-off a little off-synch, both had a step out; hers was a near fall and she put her hand down as well
transitions into shoot-the-duck into back inside death spiral [1] – quite good position
into pair change combination spin [1] – put together very well, with good entry and matching the music, very well extended positions from her; could use a little more speed though
dance lift towards throw 3salchow [1] – landing a little shaky but incredible height
straight line step sequence [0] – could have used a little more speed and attack
axel lasso to one hand to change of position to difficult dismount [1] – very strong lifting with good flow but a two-footed landing (+2-1)

She was generally hitting elegant positions throughout but he skated with rounded shoulders and his posture and carriage are very subpar. Great choreography from Julie Marcott featuring constant and varied transitions throughout coming both into and out of the elements as well as in between.

Suggested PCS:
SS 6.00 TR 8.50 PE 6.00 CH 7.25 IN 6.25

7. Vanessa JAMES / Morgan CIPRES /FRA/
Minnie the Moocher by Cab Calloway
Jumpin' Jack by Big Bad Voodoo Daddy

3twist [-2] – huge but the catch was late, he didn’t manage to impede her landing and she fell down on two feet (he was on two feet as well)
3toe [-3] – she fell
transitions to throw 3flip [1] – landing a little shaky but good entry, height and distance
backward lasso to one hand [-1] – his footwork was a little tentative, two-footed dismount
straight line step sequence [0] – he was selling it quite well but she looked like she has given up (although she picked the energy up a little in the second half)
catchfoot spiral and spread eagle into back inside death spiral with change of hold [0] – quite good position and flow until the change of hold which was a little laboured and seemed to have affected her edge
into pair change combination spin [0] – decent positions and rotation speed at the start but they didn’t manage to maintain it going into the second and third positions

Their basics are decent and they seemed to move in time to the music but whilst he kept selling the program quite well - with good energy - until the end, she seemed to have given up after the two big mistakes at the start and appeared to be just going through the motions. The choreography was a little generic.

Suggested PCS:
SS 6.50 TR 5.25 PE 5.75 CH 5.50 IN 6.75

8. Meagan DUHAMEL / Eric RADFORD /CAN/
Tribute by Eric Radford

steps towards 3twist [0] – two-footed landing but a solid catch (+1-1)
3lutz [-1] – slightly off-synch, she didn’t have a lot of flow on the landing
axel lasso to change of position and one hand to pull-through dismount [1] – decent flow throughout (but the landing was two-footed unless the pull-through counts as a landing simple landing variation – if it doesn’t than, I’d go with base GOE)
transitions to pair change combination spin [1] – decent positions and rotation speed
pull-through into dance lift towards throw 3lutz [2] – very solid landing, quite effortless from start until the end; she seemed off-axis in the air, however
straight line step sequence [1] – decent flow
dance lift into creative transitions into back inside death spiral with change of hold [0] – rotation a little slow but a very creative and difficult entry

They seemed fast throughout and the choreography was quite creative, reflected the character of the music well and featured a fair amount of interesting transitions. Their basics still aren’t the best, however, with her lines are posture being a little weak. They have been steadily improving each season though.

SS 7.00 TR 7.25 PE 6.25 CH 7.25 IN 7.00

9. Stefania BERTON / Ondrej HOTAREK /ITA/
The Mask (soundtrack)

transitions towards 3toe [2] – performed quite close together, very solid landings, good flow out
3twist [-2] – under-rotated slightly, she landed on his shoulder, two-footed
reverse lasso to change of position and one hand to difficult dismount [-1] – a very difficult and creative position but the lifting was laboured and lacked flow (they seemed to struggle with changing the position)
throw 3loop [0] – well balanced and a lovely extension of the free leg on the landing but it was a little scratchy and the jump didn’t get a lot of height or distance
catchfoot spiral into back inside death spiral with change of hold [1] – decent position, speed and flow
arabesque entry into pair change combination spin [1] – quite good positions and rotation speed
straight line step sequence [1] – good energy

Their basics are decent and they showed good energy and projection throughout. The choreography and program construction were nothing out of the ordinary, however. The program could have used some more variety, highlights and transitions.

They’ve improved their Personal Best by 0.93.

Suggested PCS:
SS 6.75 TR 5.50 PE 7.50 CH 6.25 IN 7.00

10. Tatiana VOLOSOZHAR / Maxim TRANKOV /RUS/
Masquerade Waltz by Aram Khatchaturian

steps to 3twist [3] – incredible height, very solid catch
3toe [0] – hers was solid but his landing was shaky (he was a little off-axis in the air)
throw 3loop [1] – clean but balance on the landing wasn’t perfect, there was a big swing of the free leg from her and not a lot of flow out; great height and distance covered though and a nice extension of the free leg
Y spiral into back inside death spiral with change of hold [1] – decent position and flow
into pair change combination spin [0] – well extended positions; rotation speed ok at the start but quite slow after the change of foot
reverse lasso with changes of position to difficult dismount [1] – strong lifting and nicely extended positions from her but his footwork was a little tentative
circular step sequence [2] – skated to the music very well with good flow and good use of their upper body throughout

Volosozhar/Trankov have been getting extremely high marks lately and in order to try to understand the whole phenomenon, you want to look at the larger context. Maria Mukhortova and Maxim Trankov were an elegant and stylish team with a lot of potential which never got fully realized because of her tendency to choke in competition (although it’s him who blew it at the Olympics). Tatiana Volosozhar has long been regarded as an exceptionally strong pair skater who never had a partner who would match her skill level. So before they even became a team, they had all of this goodwill, being seen as stronger partners who never managed to make it big, because somebody else stood in their way. Once they teamed up, they seemed to have gelled quite quickly and at a relatively early stage in their partnership, they were already capable of executing some very impressive technical elements. Early videos of them in training wowed skating fans and insiders. Meanwhile, after the very disappointing results in Vancouver and with the next Olympics happening on home soil, there was a huge push to secure better results in Sochi. Volosozhar and Trankov became poster children for that effort and the federation started to campaign heavily for them. The ground was already fertile and it didn’t take that much effort which brings us to where we are now, with V&T becoming figure skating’s second coming of Brian.

Of course, there are things about their skating which are undoubtedly exceptional. They have the best triple twist ever seen, which when performed to the top of their ability - as they did here - has an absolutely incredible height and a strong and secure catch and landing. Their throws are also incredibly high and cover great distance.

It seems to me that the process that is happening in judges’ heads is those memorable, big and impressive elements, bolstered by the ‘aura’ around this team, anchor their judgement. They become a lens everything else is perceived through.

Some of their technical elements are not as impressive, however. Their combination spin was quite slow. It started well but they didn’t manage to maintain the speed and flow after changing positions and later also the direction of rotation. The landings of the side-by-side and throw jumps were not perfect this time.

Their movement was quite elegant and refined and there was an ease to it. It looked quite effortless and there was a sense of continuous flow throughout the performance. The program was choreographed to the music quite well, featuring some movements in character of the waltz and their timing seemed very good. Their movement wasn’t very varied, though, the way the elements were put together wasn’t particularly complex and there weren’t many transitions. Their basic skating is quite good but it’s not exceptional.

Suggested PCS:
SS 7.25 TR 6.00 PE 8.25 CH 6.75 IN 8.00
 

zamboni step

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
It's sad to see a recommended TR score of 2.75 for Takahashi and Ryuichi because Takahashi and Tran had some of the best transitions going when they were together. Thinking of T/T only makes me sad though so I'll stop. I like how people bash you for purposefully being harsh when actually you're just truly impartial, what most judges aren't sadly. Thanks for the awesome post :biggrin:
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Volosozhar/Trankov's short program has a lot of dance holds. This dance holds are more difficult transitions because you have to be skate close and face to face without losing speed. A lot of ice dancers can't skate that close and WHO can skate are already ice dance champions. Watch entrance of their step sequence and then go watch Virtue/Moir's free dance for same element and I'm very sure you are going to see diffrence in transitions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF5wZHIU4QE watch 2.40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FSAseScTHE watch 1.02 and 3.32.

Please tell me which one is pairs team? This is why their PCS are in 9.00. Some fans thinks just showy elements are transitions.:rolleye:
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
It's sad to see a recommended TR score of 2.75 for Takahashi and Ryuichi because Takahashi and Tran had some of the best transitions going when they were together. Thinking of T/T only makes me sad though so I'll stop.

Well she is at the Olympics, which is what she wanted but yeah... :slink:

Takahashi/Tran had exceptional programs that indeed featured some very creative transitions. And Tran was expressive and had good carriage. Kihara is a little stiff and when you watch him perform back in singles he wasn't exactly very emotionally involved in his performances.

Volosozhar/Trankov's short program has a lot of dance holds. This dance holds are more difficult transitions because you have to be skate close and face to face without losing speed. A lot of ice dancers can't skate that close and WHO can skate are already ice dance champions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF5wZHIU4QE watch 2.40

I see the closed dance holds but they are happening during the step sequence, which is a technical element, called by the technical panel and rewarded under TES.

Volosozhar/Trankov do a few steps in a closed hold at the start of the program, setting up the mood (and doing so very effectively) but I don't remember seeing closed holds as transitions later on. I'll have another look later.

(Btw, pretty much all of the pair teams perform half of their step sequence in a closed hold nowadays, in order to try to get the highest level. But as you said, most of them aren't anywhere near as close. Which is one of the reasons why V/T's step sequence deserved high GOE.)

This is why their PCS are in 9.00.

A well performed closed hold during the step sequence? That's something take into account when considering the GOE for that element. Just because somebody does something well doesn't justify their every single mark being high. Every element and every program component should be considered on its own merit.

Some fans thinks just showy elements are transitions.:rolleye:

They aren't. Both upper body movement and connecting footwork (anything other than cross-overs and progressives) should get considered.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
A few thoughts...

--I really thought for a moment James had to have twisted her ankle. I'm not surprised if she lost some spunk after that. I imagine landing like that must be very painful. It's a fun program. I hope they skate it clean during the Pairs Comp.

--Castelli and Shnapir have improved to the nth degree over the last two years and that's one of my favorite Pairs' SPs of the year. She really is a little firecracker. He still skates like a cyborg, though at least he's not lumbering across the ice like a constipated trucker the way he used to. I hope they hit their quad sal throw--that will be their gold medal, no?

--V/T. Well it's miles better as a program than their long. The dance is very integrated into the tricks. Provided they don't make any major errors I don't see how any other pair is going to touch this program.

--D/R. What I found MOST interesting about them this time was the absolutely, total, conscious effort to turn Megan into a "girly girl." The soft pink costume, the softer hair (tragic though it may be), the frills and frippery. All very calculated I thought. Still, I always wind up watching him. I like this program so much more than their LP, Some very very inventive transitions into and out of moves (especially into their death spiral--a definite highlight). I just wish she would clean up some very sloppy lines and extend more. It would make them so much more polished.

Your usual boffo job Ziggy. I don't know if I would go as a low as a 2. 75 for ANY PCS score, but I think your general range is on target. They really should have a PCS judging panel like they do for tech elements. Ah well, maybe one day...
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Hopefully you are going to watch again their SP and will see a lot of harder things no pairs team can do. I will read your report on free dance. I'm curious about what you will gave Virtue/Moir for transitions.:laugh:

For fans who don't know about transitions, Volosozhar/Trankov have close dance holds and elements after immediately one after another. This is why even most pessimistic judge gave 8.50 worst. You can justify Plushenko's 4.50 but you can't justify If you gave 6.00 for Volosozhar/Trankov in short program. A lot of dance team struggling with height difference because of dance holds. (Shib-Chock/Bates) You can see height difference of Tatiana and Maxim. They don't even looks awkward and they don't löse speed because of their excellent skating skills. Judges are rewarding that. I don't remember a pairs choreography like a dance program.

I'm still laughing your marks for skating skills.:laugh: Duhamel/Radford to 7.00, Volosozhar/Trankov to 7.25. :laugh:

The Presentation Score is for Single and Pair Skating (Short Program and Free Skating):
Skating Skills
Overall skating quality, edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated
by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns etc), the clarity of
technique and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed. Varied
use of power/energy, speed and acceleration.

In evaluating the Skating Skills, the following must be considered:
– Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement;
Flow and effortless glide;
Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns;
Power/energy and acceleration;
Mastery of multi directional skating;
Mastery of one foot skating;
Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison (Pair
Skating).

Transitions/Linking Footwork and Movement
The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link
all elements. In singles and pairs this also includes the entrances and exits of
technical elements.

In evaluating the Transitions/Linking Footwork and Movement, the following
must be considered:
– Variety;
– Difficulty;
– Intricacy;
– Quality (including unison in Pair Skating);
– Balance of workload between partners (Pair Skating).

Performance/Execution
Performance: is the involvement of the Skater/Pair physically, emotionally and
intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography.
Execution: is the quality of movement and precision in delivery. This includes
harmony of movement in Pair Skating.

In evaluating the Performance/Execution, the following must be considered:
– Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement;
– Carriage;
– Style and individuality/personality;
– Clarity of movement;
– Variety and contrast;
– Projection;
– Unison and "oneness" (Pair Skating);
– Balance in performance (Pair Skating);
– Spatial awareness between partners - management of the distance between
partners and management of changes of hold (Pair Skating).

Choreography/Composition
An intentional, developed and/or original arrangement of all types of
movements according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern,
structure and phrasing.
In evaluating the Choreography/Composition the following must be considered:
– Purpose (idea, concept, vision, mood);
– Proportion (equal weight of parts);
– Unity (purposeful threading of all movements);
– Utilization of personal and public space;
– Pattern and ice coverage;
– Phrasing and form (movements and parts structured to match the phrasing
of the music);
– Originality of purpose, movement and design;
– Shared responsibility in achieving purpose (for Pair Skating).

Interpretation of the music
The personal and creative translation of the music to movement on ice.

In evaluating the Interpretation of the music, the following must be considered:
– Effortless movement in time to the music (timing);
– Expression of the music's style, character and rhythm;
– Use of *finesse to reflect the nuances of the music;
– Relationship between the partners reflecting the character of the music
(Pair Skating).
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
D/R. What I found MOST interesting about them this time was the absolutely, total, conscious effort to turn Megan into a "girly girl." The soft pink costume, the softer hair (tragic though it may be), the frills and frippery. All very calculated I thought. Still, I always wind up watching him. I like this program so much more than their LP, Some very very inventive transitions into and out of moves (especially into their death spiral--a definite highlight). I just wish she would clean up some very sloppy lines and extend more. It would make them so much more polished.

I'd assert virtually everything about this team is calculated. I like them, but I find that aspect fascinating.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Thanks so much, Ziggy! Your eye for detail is helping me get a lot more out of the programs. And thanks for the background on V/T.
 

Frenchie

I'm gonna customize the CRAP out of this title!
Medalist
Joined
May 4, 2013
again, great post! :)
looking forward to your take on the upcoming events :)
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
For fans who don't know about transitions, Volosozhar/Trankov have close dance holds and elements after immediately one after another.

They had some steps before the twist, Y spiral before the death spiral and pair combination straight afterwards and that's pretty much it. I guess the circular step sequence was only a few strokes after the lift. There were also some empty spots in the program with not much happening other than cross-overs. It's not just about transitions going immediately into elements, some teams had steps, busy upper body movement or dance lifts happening in between the elements. V/T, not so much.

Closed dance holds I only saw at the very start, where else did they do them?

I'm still laughing your marks for skating skills.:laugh: Duhamel/Radford to 7.00, Volosozhar/Trankov to 7.25. :laugh:

Which is why I said that the PCS should be taken with a grain of salt. ;)

But I was actually surprised how fast D/R were and with how much flow they have skated. They've improved a lot in that regard.

As for V/T, I don't think that SS were ever their particularly strong point and I don't see what's so great about their skating skills. They are good but I don't think they are exceptional. There's a mismatch between him and her (he has the 'classical Russian' basics), the edges aren't particularly deep and they aren't very fast.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
They had some steps before the twist, Y spiral before the death spiral and pair combination straight afterwards and that's pretty much it. I guess the circular step sequence was only a few strokes after the lift. There were also some empty spots in the program with not much happening other than cross-overs. It's not just about transitions going immediately into elements, some teams had steps, busy upper body movement or dance lifts happening in between the elements. V/T, not so much.

Closed dance holds I only saw at the very start, where else did they do them?



Which is why I said that the PCS should be taken with a grain of salt. ;)

But I was actually surprised how fast D/R were and with how much flow they have skated. They've improved a lot in that regard.

As for V/T, I don't think that SS were ever their particularly strong point and I don't see what's so great about their skating skills. They are good but I don't think they are exceptional. There's a mismatch between him and her (he has the 'classical Russian' basics), the edges aren't particularly deep and they aren't very fast.

Ziggy, I have heard numerous people state that V/T are very powerful and fast on the ice. More so then other teams.
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
elif - After I'm done with everything else, I'll rewatch V/T's SP trying to pay close attention to TR in particular, as promised. Maybe there were things I have missed.

Ziggy, I have heard numerous people state that V/T are very powerful and fast on the ice. More so then other teams.

I don't doubt that they are fast. I just don't think they are exceptionally fast. I do think they deserved the highest SS here but not by a huge margin (although maybe more than 0.25 ;)). And that goes for their PCS in general, as well. There is no doubt they are good. I just don't see them being head and shoulders above everybody else, as the marks would have us believe.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
elif - After I'm done with everything else, I'll rewatch V/T's SP trying to pay close attention to TR in particular, as promised. Maybe there were things I have missed.



I don't doubt that they are fast. I just don't think they are exceptionally fast. I do think they deserved the highest SS here but not by a huge margin (although maybe more than 0.25 ;)). And that goes for their PCS in general, as well. There is no doubt they are good. I just don't see them being head and shoulders above everybody else, as the marks would have us believe.

Well the only reason I'm question you there a bit is there have been enough reports about those who are seeing it live that V/T really are faster etc more powerful than the others. I know there was an article I believe at Skate America on Ice Network, where the second best Canadian coach praised them, and basically said you could take away an element from them, they'd still be in the lead. When the coach of the team that was ranked 4th in the world is saying that, I take it kind of seriously. And she was praising the elements, and calling it beautiful skating. She wasn't criticizing the marks.

I agree a lot of their programs aren't worthy of their talent, although I think this short is the direction they should go in..

Steur himself tends to go after their transition/choreograph score-not the skating skills mark I suspect for a reason.
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
I know there was an article I believe at Skate America on Ice Network, where the second best Canadian coach praised them, and basically said you could take away an element from them, they'd still be in the lead. When the coach of the team that was ranked 4th in the world is saying that, I take it kind of seriously. And she was praising the elements, and calling it beautiful skating. She wasn't criticizing the marks.

Yeah, I am very well aware of the reaction they get and the point I have tried to make is that it's a situation where the whole somehow becomes much more than the sum of its parts and where other factors seem to influence how people see V/T's skating. We now have this 'V/T are absolutely amazing' meme which self-perpetuates. Maybe I am being way too harsh and I am not giving them enough credit for some things but I just want to question whether everything they do really is as amazing as we're led to believe.
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Well the only reason I'm question you there a bit is there have been enough reports about those who are seeing it live that V/T really are faster etc more powerful than the others. I know there was an article I believe at Skate America on Ice Network, where the second best Canadian coach praised them, and basically said you could take away an element from them, they'd still be in the lead. When the coach of the team that was ranked 4th in the world is saying that, I take it kind of seriously. And she was praising the elements, and calling it beautiful skating. She wasn't criticizing the marks.

I agree a lot of their programs aren't worthy of their talent, although I think this short is the direction they should go in..

Steur himself tends to go after their transition/choreograph score-not the skating skills mark I suspect for a reason.

Even Ziggy says they deserved high GOE for step sequence but doesn't question why? Why they can skate close holds while others can't, why they are still faster then other teams in steps? Their skating skills are excellent, should be way higher than someone like Duhamel/Radford. At least compare them to Savchenko/Szolkowy. :laugh: You don't need very high skating skills to toss lady here and there as transitions but you need them very much If you are skating Volosozhar/Trankov's short. Skating experts got it right this time.
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
As I said before, almost every single pair team nowadays performs half of their step sequence in a dance hold, in order to try to get Lv4.

You keep focusing on one moment from the step sequence but it's just one moment in that program. It doesn't make the rest of their program have a lot of closed holds or other transitions. And they spend like what, less than 3 second or so, in that closed hold. You don't need exceptional skating skills in order to perform a face-to-face hold for a few steps.

When you're 'throwing a lady around for some transitions' that's time spent not doing stroking. So you do need decent skating skills in order to be able to get away with it and still generate enough speed. ;)

And I am not comparing them with anyone else. You keep insisting on the comparisons. ;) I think their skating skills are good but not very good so I'd give them something in the 7.00-7.75 range depending on a particular performance (assuming there were no major problems or stamina issues).
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Ok, so as promised, I did a close look at how V/T's program is constructed element-by-element. I'll dump more info in the Pairs SP thread but to get back to you elif:

You were right and I was wrong in that very well executed face-to-face holds are recurrent throughout V/T's program. It's good choreography as it's consistent with and appropriate to the waltz theme and they execute it well and I didn't give them enough credit for it.

Those face-to-face holds, happen at three points in the program:
- at the start, when they are setting up the mood
- after coming out of the twist
- after coming out of the 3toes

Whilst they are well executed and you don't see them noticeably slowing down doing them, they happen at points when they aren't skating very fast ('winding down' after an element or right from posing at the very start) so they are not that hard to control.

The actual entries into their big elements (and the death spiral), however, are mostly cross-overs.
 
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