Technical question regarding the skating foot edge on Flip/Lutz jump

[palmhand]

Hi everyone, I have a question regarding the take off edge on Flip/Lutz jump. There's a saying I've noticed from another forum that "!" or "e" calls are only being given based the edge before the toe pick hits the ice. The poster further stated that after the toe pick hits the ice, even if the edge changes to outside edge for a flip jump or changes to inside edge for lutz, there should be no calls on edges. Is there any rule book justification for her saying?
Let's say during the very short time period between toe pick hits the ice and skating foot completely leaves the ice, if the skating foot edge has changed to an outside edge for a triple flip, should the judges give an "e" call on that? Thanks in advance to anyone who can give some thoughts and rule support！

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Hi everyone, I have a question regarding the take off edge on Flip/Lutz jump. There's a saying I've noticed from another forum that "!" or "e" calls are only being given based the edge before the toe pick hits the ice. The poster further stated that after the toe pick hits the ice, even if the edge changes to outside edge for a flip jump or changes to inside edge for lutz, there should be no calls on edges. Is there any rule book justification for her saying?
Let's say during the very short time period between toe pick hits the ice and skating foot completely leaves the ice, if the skating foot edge has changed to an outside edge for a triple flip, should the judges give an "e" call on that? Thanks in advance to anyone who can give some thoughts and rule support！

Here you go. Have fun. What you want starts around page 18.

 

[palmhand]

Here you go. Have fun. What you want starts around page 18.

Thank you very much for your replying. could you be more elaborate on page 18 of what? You didn’t post any link yet

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thank you very much for your replying. could you be more elaborate on page 18 of what? You didn’t post any link yet

Actually I did. Click on the word here in my first post it should be blue.

 

[palmhand]

Actually I did. Click on the word here in my first post it should be blue.

Got it, great thanks! I’ve read this rule book before, it did rule that take off edge should be clear and right ( that is to say be outside edge for lutz and inside edge for flip). But it didn’t answer my question regarding what happens after the toe pick hits the ice. The poster I mentioned was saying that after toe pick hits the ice the body should rotate, which means changing edge is inevitable, thus any edge change after toe pick hits wouldn’t be given calls. I’m very doubtful about it and what I’m looking for is there any rule supporting her arguments

 

[bostonskaterguy86]

I’m not sure where your friend got her information, but I’m not aware of any ISU publication or rule that discusses this. Honestly, that’s a big part of the problem in a lot of these debates about technical rules - the official rulebooks aren’t always very specific about what they mean when discussing things like “wrong edge,” “forward takeoff,” etc.

One thing I’d disagree with this person about is her statement that a change of edge is “inevitable” after the pick-in. There are plenty of examples of skaters who jump lutzes and flips with no change of edge at all, either before or after they pick in. Here’s an example from Liza Tuktamysheva, who has excellent technique on her lutzes: https://youtu.be/huGupjwIuS8

You can see that she maintains the outside edge right up to the moment her left blade leaves the ice. For me, I can usually tell a lutz was done with the proper edge if the skating foot looks like it “flicks” to the outside as it comes up off of the ice (you can see that in Liza’s jump). That “flick” motion happens because the lutz is a counterrotated jump - meaning that the rotation of the jump (in this case, counterclockwise) is in the opposite direction of the curve of the edge (in this case, the left backward outside edge which moves clockwise around in a circle). Because of this, the skater can use that outside edge to push up off the ice, giving some additional lift to help the picking foot propel the jump upward, and to help generate the rotation of the jump. When the blade lifts off the ice, there’s suddenly no resistance against the skating foot pushing into that outside edge - which produces that “flick” to the outside.

So in a sense, she is right that inevitably, the motion of the skating foot does have to change from the clockwise edge to the counterclockwise rotation - but that change should happen after the blade leaves the ice, not before!