The High Kick Toe Takeoff and the Dangling Free Leg Lay Back

[Spun Silver]

Then why get rid of figures? Why all the bother about music and expressiveness? Why do people carry on about posture and airplane arms? I see your point, but maybe it's a bit overstated?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Mathman Quote:

Do the best have "good technique," or is "good technique," by definition, what the best do? Who would dare to tell Lucinda Rue that they don't like her spin position?

Good technique means ability to execute a move without error in definition and very important, consistently.

Plushenko, for me, had extraordinary jumping technique and musicality, but that didn't make me enjoy his programs all that much. Enjoying Style is another matter to determine what one perceives as a 'best' performance. Style is very subjective to the fan, and audience.

Kwan's elements were not the greatest but she did them all with great technique, and her Style was what made her endearing to many viewers.

 

[Bennett]

"Correct" in skating is usually defined primarily by what the blades are doing on the ice. If you want to look at the basics of skating, you need to look below the skater's foot.

What the body does to get the blades to achieve the desired edges, etc., may have a preferred form, but part of what puts the "free" in free skating is the fact that so many variations are possible.

Some moves (e.g., spin and spiral positions) may have minimum requirements for body position to meet the definition. The best skaters performers of any given move will go well beyond the minimum. The worst will fail to achieve even that and won't get credit for the element at all, or will get negative GOE.

Even with spins and spirals, it's possible to have excellent "form" or body line and still deserve negative GOE or no credit because of what the blade was (or wasn't) doing on the ice.

Or vice versa.

Thanks a lot for your explanations!

I understand that spins could allow great variation in positions. But the overall stretch and toe point in skating and spirals seem to be like unwritten rules that the vast majority of coaches tell their skaters to do. Perhaps less frequently so the attitude in layback.

Regarding the wrap in jumps, I think it really interesting that they do not care too much about the air position.

Then why get rid of figures? Why all the bother about music and expressiveness? Why do people carry on about posture and airplane arms? I see your point, but maybe it's a bit overstated?

I agree with your points. My mom with no experience or particular interest in FS still comments on whose spirals are most beautiful (her vote goes to mao asada). My dad with even less interest in any dances also comments that there is something strange about Yukari's jumps and he is kind of puzzled whenever he sees her skate.

 

[Mathman]

I agree with your points. My mom with no experience or particular interest in FS still comments on whose spirals are most beautiful (her vote goes to mao asada). My dad with even less interest in any dances also comments that there is something strange about Yukari's jumps and he is kind of puzzled whenever he sees her skate.

This is a little off the main point, but one thing to consider is whether a skater will be in demand for shows, exhibitions, and tours, either during or after her competitive career is over. In that case, pleasing the audience becomes the whole objective.

If you have trained unattractive technique and unpleasing positions, it seems like your value to a professional show or company would go down, even if the CoP forgives you in competitions.

 

[steyn]

I agree with your points. My mom with no experience or particular interest in FS still comments on whose spirals are most beautiful (her vote goes to mao asada). My dad with even less interest in any dances also comments that there is something strange about Yukari's jumps and he is kind of puzzled whenever he sees her skate.

This may be a bit off topic but TV usually emphasize ony the position because cameras follow the skater. It is hard to feel the speed of spirals on TV which I think could have more (or equally good) visual impact if seen live. Non-experts may not recognize the edge, though.

 

[Bennett]

I wonder if judges and coaches have different standards.

They are both professionals, but judges seem to be less concerned about positions perhaps because of the paucity of rules on these matters. I think that most coaches teach you "correct/good" bodily positions. Even though these may not be specifically written in the CoP rule book, they would be written in textbooks. It is hard to believe that there is no consensus on these matters despite that some variations might be allowed.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

This may be a bit off topic but TV usually emphasize ony the position because cameras follow the skater. It is hard to feel the speed of spirals on TV which I think could have more (or equally good) visual impact if seen live. Non-experts may not recognize the edge, though.

This is so true. The camera always follows the skater and can give the appearance of fast, medium, and slow. When one is in the Arena, one actually sees the speed utilized. I never realized how fast Yuka Sato was until I saw her LIVE.

 

[antmanb]

Zhang does have a high toe-off kick but then so did Sarah Hughese and she won the Olympics,

While that is true enough i think there is a world of difference between Hughes's high kick pick in technique which was just that and Zhang's technique which is practically a spiral position before the pick in - the right hip completely closed - boot a quarter turn in and simultaneously out to the side, and the heavily counter rotated body position. Hughes's jumps may have kicked high to pick in but Zhang's jumps are truly ugly and only highlight the poor technique throughout the jumps.

Ant

 

[dwiggin3]

I only skated as a low level skater when I was younger and no expert at all., So let me only talk about (2) What you want to see.

Wrap. To me, Yukari's wrapped triples tend to look as if it were one revolution less. It's not like other skaters' jumps looking short of 1/4 or 1/2 less. I also know that Yukari DO often underrotate. But even when she fully rotates, it just gives me an impression as if it were one revolution less. Perhaps this is because I am no expert.
Yet I still feel sure that all of my ex-coaches would say that it would be a wrong technique to do. Lots of commentators, ama skaters, and fans complain about the wrap. I do not quite understand why it is not considered "wrong" by definition.

High kick. this is again perhaps because of me not being an expert, but Zhang's high kick and strongly twisted preparation give me an impression as if her jumps prerotated more than other skaters. Even if not, her high kick gives me an impression that that technique is bad because that is a very different technique from what my coaches would say. I understand that it may not necessarily "wrong" by definition. Yet, it gives me an impression that it is a "bad/weak" technique.

Attitude. I think the attitude position beautiful and all of my coaches told me that it was the right position. Besides, it was not difficult for me to do at all. I just wonder, is it difficult if you are not flexible?

In any case, so many top skaters do not do that position. I do not think that they cannot do. But perhaps their coaches did not tell them that they should. So I thought that some coaches might consider it fine not to have the attitude position and that it might be a matter of preference or something. Unlike the high kick and wrap, it does not necessarily give me an impression that it is a "wrong" technique. But it does look an inferior position to me because my coaches were against it.

Let me add bad posture and a lack of stretch, leg turn-out, and toe point (esp. in spirals).

I understand that by definition it is not "wrong" not to have them. Yet, it bothers me really a lot perhaps not only because my skating coaches were picky about these, but also because I practice ballet where these are considered to be very "wrong." When I go and see performing arts, any dancer has good postures. It feels to me kind of bizarre that skaters can pass as elite skaters without these.

Very well said.

 

[Bennett]

While that is true enough i think there is a world of difference between Hughes's high kick pick in technique which was just that and Zhang's technique which is practically a spiral position before the pick in - the right hip completely closed - boot a quarter turn in and simultaneously out to the side, and the heavily counter rotated body position. Hughes's jumps may have kicked high to pick in but Zhang's jumps are truly ugly and only highlight the poor technique throughout the jumps.

Ant

I think that the heavy counter rotation of the body may be where I feel "?" most about her flip rather than the mere high kick. Is it okay to twist that much if you are on a deep curve? I only had learned from three coaches in total while I skated and do not know what the other coaches may teach. But I myself had learned that I should be on a shallow inside edge and should try to keep the square of the body. She also twists her body very heavily going into the loop. She gives an impression that she is using the momentum to release the heavy twist to prerotate a lot more than other skaters. But I heard from another poster that Caro is not prerotating more than others even though her deeper curve may give such an impression. So I suppose that she does not prerotate more than others. But I am still wondering if it is fine to twist the body as heavily as she does. I would appreciate some insights.

 

[Wrlmy]

Just my two cents on Yu-Na's spiral. Her free leg seems relatively more turned out, but it's just because she's twisting her upper body to the side whereas her upper body was completely parallel to the ice last year. So many ladies elect to twist their upper bodies to give impression of turned-out free leg. The most obvious example would be Miki. The only skaters who are able to pull of perfect position without twisting IMO are Sasha, and Mao and Caroline to lesser degree.

I'm pretty sure Yu-Na could create "impression" of turned-out leg by further twisting her upper body. But I'm not sure it's worth it.

 

[Ladskater]

A Picture is Worth A Thousand Words....

Joe:

Here is a link that will show Scott Hamilton executing a textbook Lutz. Notice his takeoff - his opposite skating knee is well bent allowing his toe pick to "vault" him high in the air but not exagerated in the "high kick toe takeoff" as you describe.

http://oasis.dit.upm.es/~jantonio/personal/patinaje/index.htm

Click on Jump/Lutz - Scott Hamilton

I hope this helps.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe:

Here is a link that will show Scott Hamilton executing a textbook Lutz. Notice his takeoff - his opposite skating knee is well bent allowing his toe pick to "vault" him high in the air but not exagerated in the "high kick toe takeoff" as you describe.

http://oasis.dit.upm.es/~jantonio/personal/patinaje/index.htm

Click on Jump/Lutz - Scott Hamilton

I hope this helps.

Great website, L.A.D. It must be written by someone so knowledgeable about FS.

I like the frame where Hamilton is just landing his lutz and it does show that it is on (what I call) the ball of his foot. I think, too, that there is a touch of the lowest part of the toe pick also, but not the whole toe pick.

Indeed, the take off does act as a pole vault when it is done properly.