The Judging Controversy Thread

[Artistry]

Don’t have time to read the thread, maybe someone already posted it, but this story HAS BEEN FRONT PAGE of CNN for several hours!!!!

Does anyone have a link to the press conference - a video?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

IIRC, a couple of years ago when these guidelines were revised to the present language, the intent of the ISU was deliberately to encourage the judges to use a wider range of GOEs. In exchange, the actual values of the GOEs were reduced (to 70% for triple jumps). So the intention was that for a really good jump. go ahead and give +3 GOE if you were really impressed, but that +3 would add only 2.1 points to the total. (There was a bit of controversy at the time of the change -- some people felt that it was directed specifically at Yuna Kim because she got such high GOEs in Vancouver. This way, she could still get +3 GOEs but it wouldn't put her so far ahead.)

Personally, I am not dismayed at the fact that the guidelines are only guidelines. We know going in that the GOEs represent the judges' opinions regarding the quality of the element. However, I think if you asked a judge, what was so great about that jump that you gave it a plus three?, that judge would find it very easy to say that besides the height and distance, it also had good flow throughout, extended landing edge, effortless throughout, matched to the music, etc.

Bottom line, of course, yes, if the judge wants to cheat outright no set of guidelines can prevent it.

I'm so glad you're the one who answered. Thank you!!!!

 

[chloepoco]

I felt that the issue placement came only into context of inconsistent judging. I think if she felt the judging was consistent and fair, she probably wouldn't have fussed at the placement.

If she felt the top three placements were fair, then who did she think she came ahead of out of Gracie, Julia and Mao?

 

[millie]

Actually, I think Ashley was questioning her placement as well--I thought I read where she questioned her placement being below someone who fell.

Didn't Gracie fall and her marks were ahead of Ashley. When she said that on NBC, Gracie was standing right next to her....was she referring to Gracie or Julia. The look on Gracie's face was priceless. Gracie said she was happy with placements.

 

[kwanatic]

Is there something wrong to be hung up about BLATANTLY questionable judging bias? I can't get behind an argument that just asks everyone to "forget about it" and to turn a blind eye because what happened, happened.

If Yuna and Carolina are causing a ruckus, people would probably slam them for being poor sports (ala Wagner).

No, by all means continue with your hang ups if that's how you need to deal with it. I'm just saying blatantly questionable judging is nothing new to this sport. There has always been and will always be instances like this in scoring. I suppose I'm ready to move on b/c I realize, understand and have accepted that about this sport. Apparently other people feel the need to take up arms and attempt to fight back. To that I say if there was a way to correct it/prevent it from happening, it wouldn't continue to happen time and time and time again...hwell:

The sooner people understand that judging bias/favorites/snubs/lowballing/cheating/etc. is just the way it is, the sooner they'll learn to appreciate the sport for the skating rather than get hung up on the results. Honestly, that's the only reason I still continue to watch. I've made my peace with the "judging" aspect of the sport and no longer base my satisfaction on a fair outcome b/c fair figure skating competition is an oxymoron.

 

[Mathman]

Didn't Gracie fall and her marks were ahead of Ashley. When she said that on NBC, Gracie was standing right next to her....was she referring to Gracie or Julia. The look on Gracie's face was priceless. Gracie said she was happy with placements.

I am a big Ashley fan. She gives it her all, bless her heart. What she does not understand, though, is that the basic quality of her skating is a notch below the top rung, including Gracie and Julia (we won't mention Kim, Asada and Kostner).

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Didn't Gracie fall and her marks were ahead of Ashley. When she said that on NBC, Gracie was standing right next to her....was she referring to Gracie or Julia. The look on Gracie's face was priceless. Gracie said she was happy with placements.

Without trying to sound mean...Ashley kinda dares you to call her a b#^*h and she is really good at it. Ill take Gracie and Yulia making snow angels on the ice to Ashley's "bad girl skates" personally. If she would play to the hearts of the judges and the fans she would score much better I think. Like I said, her strength is not being liked but in your face and she kinda dares the judges to score her bad. While Plushenko mean muggs the crowd Ashley kinda "mad dogs" the world and starts with the judges first. It seems to backfire but I have to admit I kind of respect her for it. Yup. I can respect that.

 

[Mrs. P]

Didn't Gracie fall and her marks were ahead of Ashley. When she said that on NBC, Gracie was standing right next to her....was she referring to Gracie or Julia. The look on Gracie's face was priceless. Gracie said she was happy with placements.

If she felt the top three placements were fair, then who did she think she came ahead of out of Gracie, Julia and Mao?

I'm willing to give Ashley the benefit of the doubt and believe she was questioning how the scoring inconsistencies affected her score and placement. I don't think she was singling out a single skater. But YMMV.

I am a big Ashley fan. She gives it her all, bless her heart. What she does not understand, though, is that the basic quality of her skating is a notch below the top rung, including Gracie and Julia (we won't mention Kim, Asada and Kostner).

Good point, MM. While I agree with Ashley in that there's a lot of inconsistencies in judging and it's quite confusing for even those IN skating, I also agree that she was actually scored correctly for what she put out there last night.

 

[Rachmaninoff]

No, by all means continue with your hang ups if that's how you need to deal with it. I'm just saying blatantly questionable judging is nothing new to this sport. There has always been and will always be instances like this in scoring. I suppose I'm ready to move on b/c I realize, understand and have accepted that about this sport. Apparently other people feel the need to take up arms and attempt to fight back. To that I say if there was a way to correct it/prevent it from happening, it wouldn't continue to happen time and time and time again...hwell:

The sooner people understand that judging bias/favorites/snubs/lowballing/cheating/etc. is just the way it is, the sooner they'll learn to appreciate the sport for the skating rather than get hung up on the results. Honestly, that's the only reason I still continue to watch. I've made my peace with the "judging" aspect of the sport and no longer base my satisfaction on a fair outcome b/c fair figure skating competition is an oxymoron.

Enjoying the performances and complaining about or even getting angry at unfair judging are not mutually exclusive. Plenty of people complaining about the scoring also made appreciative comments about the performances. There's a place to simply enjoy skaters' performances and ignore how they're ranked: exhibitions. As far as I'm concerned, if we're going to have figure skating competitions there should be continuing effort made to make scoring as fair as possible. If you're correct in that events like this just can't be prevented no matter what, perhaps the detractors are right and this should not be an Olympic sport. *shrug*

I happen to care about the integrity of a sport I've followed for 20 years. I realize there will always be some subjectivity to it and people's biases toward their countrymen or their favourites, but multiple skating insiders from multiple countries expressing shock and suspicion is something else. It isn't about Yu Na or Carolina. I haven't really been an uber-fan of any singles skaters since Michelle Kwan, and I would have been fine with anyone winning here as long as they genuinely earned it. But I do care about the state of figure skating, so I would want to see something done to give the judging and results more credibility. I want to see reason to take it seriously; I want to see skaters and coaches and countries focus on being truly exceptional enough to achieve great results, rather than politicking to get them.

And I don't agree that controversies to this degree, ones that see skating insiders from all over the place drop their jaws in shock, happen all the time. This isn't like some Russians saying Plushy should have won in Vancouver or some Canadians saying Stojko should have won in Lillehammer or MK fans upset she didn't win Nagano. This is numerous former skaters, commentators, journalists, officials, etc. from countries that didn't have a skater anywhere near the ladies podium expressing great surprise and suspicion. We should just shrug and ignore it and let it keep happening? No thanks.

 

[Mrs. P]

Enjoying the performances and complaining about or even getting angry at unfair judging are not mutually exclusive. Plenty of people complaining about the scoring also made appreciative comments about the performances. There's a place to simply enjoy skaters' performances and ignore how they're ranked: exhibitions. As far as I'm concerned, if we're going to have figure skating competitions there should be continuing effort made to make scoring as fair as possible. If you're correct in that events like this just can't be prevented no matter what, perhaps the detractors are right and this should not be an Olympic sport. *shrug*

I happen to care about the integrity of a sport I've followed for 20 years. I realize there will always be some subjectivity to it and people's biases toward their countrymen or their favourites, but multiple skating insiders from multiple countries expressing shock and suspicion is something else. It isn't about Yu Na or Carolina. I haven't really been an uber-fan of any singles skaters since Michelle Kwan, and I would have been fine with anyone winning here as long as they genuinely earned it. But I do care about the state of figure skating, so I would want to see something done to give the judging and results more credibility. I want to see reason to take it seriously; I want to see skaters and coaches and countries focus on being truly exceptional enough to achieve great results, rather than politicking to get them.

And I don't agree that controversies to this degree, ones that see skating insiders from all over the place drop their jaws in shock, happen all the time. This isn't like some Russians saying Plushy should have won in Vancouver or some Canadians saying Stojko should have won in Lillehammer or MK fans upset she didn't win Nagano. This is numerous former skaters, commentators, journalists, officials, etc. from countries that didn't have a skater anywhere near the ladies podium expressing great surprise and suspicion. We should just shrug and ignore it and let it keep happening? No thanks.

:agree:

 

[Ophelia]

A+ post Rachmaninoff.

 

[Lyanpark]

A++ post Rachmaninoff.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

:agree:

A+ post Rachmaninoff.

A++ post Rachmaninoff.

:agree:

 

[Elaine]

A++ post Rachmaninoff.

We really need the 'like' button. :agree:

 

[kwanatic]

Enjoying the performances and complaining about or even getting angry at unfair judging are not mutually exclusive. Plenty of people complaining about the scoring also made appreciative comments about the performances. There's a place to simply enjoy skaters' performances and ignore how they're ranked: exhibitions. As far as I'm concerned, if we're going to have figure skating competitions there should be continuing effort made to make scoring as fair as possible. If you're correct in that events like this just can't be prevented no matter what, perhaps the detractors are right and this should not be an Olympic sport. *shrug*

I happen to care about the integrity of a sport I've followed for 20 years. I realize there will always be some subjectivity to it and people's biases toward their countrymen or their favourites, but multiple skating insiders from multiple countries expressing shock and suspicion is something else. It isn't about Yu Na or Carolina. I haven't really been an uber-fan of any singles skaters since Michelle Kwan, and I would have been fine with anyone winning here as long as they genuinely earned it. But I do care about the state of figure skating, so I would want to see something done to give the judging and results more credibility. I want to see reason to take it seriously; I want to see skaters and coaches and countries focus on being truly exceptional enough to achieve great results, rather than politicking to get them.

And I don't agree that controversies to this degree, ones that see skating insiders from all over the place drop their jaws in shock, happen all the time. This isn't like some Russians saying Plushy should have won in Vancouver or some Canadians saying Stojko should have won in Lillehammer or MK fans upset she didn't win Nagano. This is numerous former skaters, commentators, journalists, officials, etc. from countries that didn't have a skater anywhere near the ladies podium expressing great surprise and suspicion. We should just shrug and ignore it and let it keep happening? No thanks.

I get where you're coming from. It would be great if everything were judged fairly and people earned scores based on what they actually do on the ice rather than relying on reputation/politicking, but the odds of that happening in a subjective sport like this are very low. The fact that even the ISU officials don't seem to care enough to question the scoring is all the proof I need that it is pointless.

Is it right? No. That's just the way it is. We can start petitions/tweet about it/leave comments/write to the ISU/etc. but from Cinquanta's statements, it's obvious all of it will fall on deaf ears. Like I said, if there was a way to stop stuff like this from happening it wouldn't continue to happen. It's just the nature of a subjective sport like figure skating.

 

[whatif]

What I fail to see in this whole corrupt Russian judges scandal and evidence to some very strong claims made. Everything so far has been opinions, suspicions, xenophobic attitude towards certain parts of the world without any evidence. I am not Russian but if I were I would be offended. The SP panel of judges did not have a single Russian or Eastern European judge, yet the PCS of top three skaters were comparable to what the FS judging panel gave out. I just do not understand why all these skaters and insiders suddenly woke up when the over scoring trend was going throughout the entire competition.

IMO, the only solution is to not hold world competitions at all. There will never be an agreement and consensus opinion about PCS among the top federations. Let Russians have their competition and let the other have their own. These scandals will never end because it's judged by humans and judged subjectively.

 

[miki88]

I agree with Lakernik's comments. Results are different depending on your angle of perception.

 

[yuki90]

Today's Washington Post.

Her component marks were as high as Kim’s, but the idea that Sotnikova is anywhere as close to an artist as Kim is laughable. They are both good, yes, but there are levels of good. One is good in the way you call your grandmother a good dancer because she does the cha-cha slide at the family reunion. The other is a prima ballerina. 

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...kova-beat-kim-yu-na-because-of-russiaflation/

 

[Ven]

I too would click "like button" for Rachmaninoff's post. :thumbsup:

Not only Yuna, but Caro was robbed too, and all of the other skaters were cheated out of fair chances.

 

[hikki]

Entire post by Rachmaninoff, especially:

I happen to care about the integrity of a sport I've followed for 20 years.

It isn't about Yu Na or Carolina.

But I do care about the state of figure skating, so I would want to see something done to give the judging and results more credibility. I want to see reason to take it seriously; I want to see skaters and coaches and countries focus on being truly exceptional enough to achieve great results, rather than politicking to get them.

We should just shrug and ignore it and let it keep happening? No thanks.

Absolutely, Rachmaninoff. Absolutely.

And now that the problem with the selection of the judging panel, one of whom was was a former cheat, and the blatantly evident conflict of interest with the technical panel have ben raised, you can see this is not about some uber fans being sore losers.