The Worst Programs...

[Rgirl]

Rgirl, where does that info about "Jungle" programme come from? Already in Skate America 1996 Yagudin skated to an exhibition number which sounds very much like it, LOL:

http://groups.google.com/[email protected]&output=gplain

Excerpt:
>Alexei Yagudin's exhibition program is the one that made the show worthwhile for me, because you had to be there -- I don't think words are adequate to describe it. He was wearing black leggings, a grass skirt and tiara, and had "war paint" on his face and bare chest. He was also carrying some ears of dried corn that he tossed into the stands at the beginning of his program.>
Marjaana

OH MY GAWD, Jaana! I thought poor Yags only did it once and heard that the only reason he did that humiliating thing was that Mishin hadn't planned an exhibition program. Obviously my info source was wrong! The fact that Mishin PLANNED it makes it even worse! (Rgirl tearing her hair out, gnashing her teeth.) It even has a grotesque, "jungle bunny," phallic name--"One Banana." I hope Yags kicked Mishin right in the keester before he left just for making him do that putrid program. Argh! More than once! I wish I'd never known! But thanks, Jaana. I've got to face the truth.
Rgirl--Exhausted

 

[RIskatingfan]

It even has a grotesque, "jungle bunny," phallic name--"One Banana."
Rgirl--Exhausted

 

[Jaana]

Yes, that was Yagudin´s 1996-1997 season exhibition number (which of course got a bit "finetuned" as the season went on). Actually, as far as I remember, it looked to me that he seemed to be enjoying as he skated to it in Worlds, LOL. It did not look like he was an unwilling victim on the ice... I did not see it from 1997 Europeans (I think), as Eurosport did not show all exhibition programmes, I believe.

LOL, yes, Mishin can be blamed for a lot... I wonder who invented that "explanation" about the programme being a sudden idea? Well, some skating fans have been around longer than since SLC Olympics and do remember these matters from the past, LOL. Besides there is the Google search for rssif, where skating discussions and reviews can be found with very little effort.

Marjaana

 

[rtureck]

Now what was the real subject of this thread?

The pianist?

For me, if one doesn't like Wagner, one is not well versed in music and the introduction of leitmotifs.

ITA with the description of "not well versed in music", I am not entirely sure I 100% agree with the reason as stated. Of course no one here IMHO is as well versed in music as Realtorgal, the resident musician of GS, she has the degree, and a wealth of personal and teaching experience.

I understand you are an avid Wager appreciator. Could the accesibility of Wagner opera e.g. attending the MET made a difference? I am sure watching a Wagner opera live or Michelle Kwan live at the SLC helps one to appreciate and understand the art/ sports. I speculate younger posters who stated they don't like to sit through 10 hours of Wagner opera may change their appreciation if they are given opportunities to watch Wagner performances live. A grand Wagner opera is expensive, a local community college drama departament can not pull it off. How much is a ticket at the MET, approaching $200? plus the parking, the handling fee.

One more thought about Wagner, I think his place in music history is secure, the greatest composer of music drama. I agree he cast a huge influence in future composers, like "R. Strauss learnt from Wagner in using Leitmotiv, e.g. in Salome" BTW, I am quoting directly from the Oxford music companion, this is not a piece of spontaneous knowledge

Now what was the real subject of this thread?

Back to topic, I actually like the pink panther program, and I agree with some programs listed by patsue.

 

[RealtorGal]

Back to topic, I actually like the pink panther program, and I agree with some programs listed by patsue.

It really does boil down to taste, doesn't it?! It depends on whether you are into lighter, fun programs or not. You know, now that I think of it, that Pink Panther program could have been fun--I just think it needed better, dare I say it, wilder choreography. When you do a program like that, it really needs to go ALL the way. That's why I liked Kurt's clown and Viktor's doll programs so much. They were just so incredibly OUT THERE! PP was too tame by comparison.

 

[Mathman]

OK, now, what was the topic? Was it the Kwanderfulness of all things Michelle? We seemed to be going astray there for a minute, discussing Wagner and all.

Oh what the heck: To me, Wagner is the only composer who was such a bad man that it detracts from the enjoyment of his music. I know, its my loss.

I also wanted to add this about show biz, about "singer's face" and over the top emoting, versus showing your true heart: When you perform on stage (as in an opera, for instance) you have to use large melodramatic gestures, a big bellowing voice, layers and layers of stage make-up and exaggerated facial features stretched to the limit. This is because you have to be seen and heard in the last row of the balcony.

In movies or on TV, with the camera right in your face, this looks ridiculous, so you have to depict emotion more subtly.

In a figure skating performance, are you skating for the audience in the nose-bleed seats, for the judges in the front row, or for the ESPN cameras pointed down (or up) your costume?

I think Jenny Kirk is a good example. On TV she always has a HUGE ear to ear grin on her face, even when she falls. But when you see the same performance live from the 20th row, she looks pretty and joyful. Is this emotion "genuine?" In the case of Nationals we know that what Jenny was really thinking was, please God let me make it through this performance without throwing up.

All art and entertainment is illusion and the suspension of disbelieve. Michelle and Sasha and Jenny -- we know they're not really princesses of enchanted myth and long-forgotten legend. But for four minutes they can make us think they are, and for one brief shining moment take us

B-A-A-A-A-CK

T-O-O-O

C-A-A-A

M-E-E-E

LOT!

 

[hockeyfan228]

The other day I was listening to the orchestra music that follows the "Immolation Scene" from Die Gotterdammerung, and though that excerpts could make a wonderful pairs LP.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Hockeyfan - We're back to bad boy richard. I would like to see a a pairs to the Quintet from Die Meistersinger, but I think it would need some additional music for a change of pace. Maybe the overture to Der Fliegender Hollander.

Oh well, I still think it's tough to skate to his music. I've watched ballets to his music and they were all bad.

Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

Oh well, I still think it's tough to skate to his music. I've watched ballets to his music and they were all bad.

Joe

That's because choreographers use entire pieces, without judicious editing

 

[Rgirl]

ITA with the description of "not well versed in music", I am not entirely sure I 100% agree with the reason as stated. Of course no one here IMHO is as well versed in music as Realtorgal, the resident musician of GS, she has the degree, and a wealth of personal and teaching experience.

RT,
You are SO right about Realtorgal. She has the musical education, professional performing experience, and teaching experience on a variety of levels. Actually, there are a lot of posters on GS who have master's degrees or above in their fields and/or high level professional experience. Also, a lot of their expertise relates to skating and, as Rgal does on occasion, they will use their knowledge if they feel it will add to the topic(s) of the thread.

Occasionally we get a poster or two who will flaunt his/her knowledge just to try to "show off" how much they know. Actually, I find it to be kind of like how you describe Sasha's "bravura" skating--"Look at me! Look at me!" Although in the right threads and to a point, I often find this information very interesting and valuable. But some of them--well, one poster in particular who no longer posts here, or at least I don't know if she does--used to get so carried away with minutia about her area, which also happened to be classical music--though like you, she too was just a passionate fan--going on and on and ON about things that had nothing to do with anything, that although I used to copy her lists of music recommendations so I could check them out, eventually it seemed she got carried away with I don't know what, but her posts became all "Look at me!" and no substance. She would also copy out whole chapters of textbooks, which I found very odd.

Anyway, it was really a shame. A lot of people loved hearing about her music info and I actually liked her. But she was one of those posters who needed to hate certain posters and skaters and for some reason seemed to have this need to endlessly badger them. It seemed like once she got a fixed negative idea about a poster or skater in her head, even if it was based on false information, nothing could change it. Don't get me wrong, to the people she liked, she was super nice. But for the posters who were on her s**t list, she seemed obsessed with picking apart and tearing down everything they said. A very unfortunate waste of what could have been at best an opportunity for further positive interaction and at worst peaceful coexistence, but she would have none of it with the posters she hated. Very sad. Don't know whatever happened to her.

But back to Realtorgal and other posters who are experts in certain or even several fields. I guess people like Rgal are secure enough in their own self-esteem that they don't feel the need to "show off" every day how much they know about whatever. OTOH, I love it when posters such as Rgal, Mathman, Yazmeen, Tharttell, Sk8m8, Show, and many others--I'm sure I'm leaving many names out, please forgive!--contribute their expertise to a thread where it applies to the topic, or start a topic in Le Cafe about it, whether it be a "brain teaser" thread or just sharing information. I know I've sure learned a lot from these people and I know others have too. For example, the music experts on the "American Idol" threads in Le Cafe are so great to have. And at least right now, with people such as Rgal, Mike79, Guinevere, Show, JohhnyCoop, Tonichelle, and others I can't think of off-hand, I can miss a show like I did last night and feel I get a great range of well-informed if not expert opinions on how things went.

Well, off topic again, lol. But speaking of music and "worst programs," I think poor music choices often ruin what could have been an excellent program and just drive it into the ground. One of my pet peeves is the use of movie soundtracks that are mediocre at best. Of course there have been some great scores written for film; some, IMO, stand on their own as music and some are appropriate for skating. The other night I was watching "The English Patient" and because a lot of the score reflects flight, I wondered if it would work for figure skating. BTW, I thought the music for "Catch Me if You Can," like "The English Patient" also captured that feeling of flight, though in a very different way. Both are rare, IMO, among film scores in being stand-alone good. Plus, in "The English Patient" there's the use of Bach overlaid with Hungarian folk music, which I thought was especially interesting. Finally, although I wouldn't want the skater to "play" a character from "TEP," the female lead is a very passionate and sensuous woman. If the right skater just used passion, sensuousness, and the idea from the film that our bodies are the true maps of the world and skated a well choreographed program to a well edited version of music from "TEP," I think it just might work. However, speaking of experience, I had enough as a choreographer and dancer to know that what seems like a great idea in your head often tanks when you actually try it. So somebody skating to music from "TEP" might be a future "worst program" lol.
Rgirl

PS--HockeyFan, ITA re Wagner, dance, and judicious editing--like with chainsaw, lol. Or rather, to pay homage to "Parsifal," a certain Roman soldier's spear. I once choreographed a dance using the Cambridge Buskers playing "Ride of the Valkyries" (they play recorders and kazoos) and it was received very well, but then it was only about four minutes long

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

ITA Rgirl. And it's not just music. Surgeries, bone structures, statistics, and chiken pox too. I think that makes for an interesting forum rather than takes away from the forum.

There are posts on the "Worst Program" which I disagree but they are so well written that I understand the poster's views on their subjective likes and dislikes. I find that interesting.

Joe

 

[Pati]

There are posts on the "Worst Program" which I disagree but they are so well written that I understand the poster's views on their subjective likes and dislikes.

And there are also the usual posts that bash certain skaters, irregardless of whether or not the poster has their facts right. Anything to get in another insult seems to be their main goal in forum-life.

You don't have to have a degree in music to appreciate it, or dislike it, whatever the case may be. I'm not an opera fan, and I can barely tolerate classical music. Gimme some good ole Rock&Roll!

 

[rtureck]

you don't have to have a degree in music to appreciate it, or dislike it, whatever the case may be. I Gimme some good ole Rock&Roll!

I don't have a music degree either, bring on jazz too.

I think Joesitz is the one who has written quite a lot on Cohen and bravura style IIRC last time I talked about it, I said I wasn't sure I agree that Cohen has a bravura style, maybe, maybe not.

I love Petrenko's doll program

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

rTurek - When I mention Sasha having a bravura style I am indeed giving an exceptionally praiseworthy compliment.

Her is the definition:

Music.
Brilliant technique or style in performance.
A piece or passage that emphasizes a performer's virtuosity.
A showy manner or display.

adj.
Music. Of, relating to, or being a brilliant performance technique or style.
Showy; ostentatious.

Nothing wrong with the above definition. It's highly complimentary.

Joe

 

[Lotta]

Michelle's Tosca. *sobs* I love her, but she skated to overused music. Michelle doesn't DO that. She skates to music unskated before.

Totmianina and Marinin's Cotton Club. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wake me up when it's over.

Anything Wuss skates except in his exhibitions.

Sokolova's LP last year and THIS year. It's not doing a thing for me and I like her a lot.

 

[Tenorguy]

Worst Performance

I know its been a while since I last posted, but I assure you all I've been reading the board religiously since it moved and really enjoyed reading the coverage of the Nats and this particular thread is just great - wonderful stuff!

Here are some scattered comments:

RealtorGal: loved your analysis of the dangers of unearned sentimentalism re FOG. We all have had "cringy" moments when the artist goes over the top for no apparent reason. I had a wonderful acting coach who worked with me on a tearful monolugue and he clued me in on the real power and potential traps of portraying strong emotion. He said (and I think you'll agree) what can move the audience during a sad moment is to watch the character fighting bravely to hold back the flood - that's what we can identify with; the struggle to NOT be overwhelmed.

Watching MK during the Oly exhibition I sensed, for me, her true fight to skate through her heartbreak and I must say, I was hearbroken along side her. Now, I hate false "Hallmark " moments but that did me in. I also got to see Michelle do FOG live after the 2002 Nats in LA and the mood she portrayed was one of radiant calm; no bathetic sad-ballerina schlockfesting allowed.

I am a singer, so I can relate to you as a teacher leading a student out of relying on the emotional crutch of "indicating" feeling rather than portraying it. Ouch - I must admit to being guilty of overloading Die Neugierige from time to time!

Joesitz: I will make a blanket statement here; NO skater should attempt to skate to Tristan! At least I hope they don't!! How could anyone screw their bodies into the ground to properly portray the mental anguish/borderline hysteria/rapture associated with Isolde's death-throes? Can you imagine Sasha's attempt to portray that by spinning in the Charlotte position whilst simultaneously twisting her hips into a backward, en dedans Ina Bauer? Oy - such emotion.... yikes!

RGirl: ITA regarding Catch Me if You Can score. Great fluttering fun stuff - subtle and like what a surprise from J Williams huh? What's so necessary I think for a great (not merely good) skate is for the skater to LISTEN to the music as carefully as you do. Sorry to blow air up a person's skirt (do you wear skirts?) but its true! So funny cause as I write this I have Flower Drum Song on the tv in the background. Now wouldn't THAT be THE worst source material - if not the most inappropriate - for a good skate? I don't know if you like Mark Morris, but I love how he deconstructed The Nutcracker; and that's a piece that for me is above reproach or critical disdain (kinda like the Wizard Oz and Bananas Foster).

Oh, BTW, I truly believe the skating gods were silenced witnessing the sorcerer program from the Russian Oly gold guy - I can never remember his name..... but you all know the program of which I speak. He wore the feathered pirate's headress and that really big cape..... dude looked like a Sacramento drag queen's version of Cher on a budget!

Peace out - Tenorguy

 

[Jaana]

Tenorguy, it is Alexei Urmanov.

Marjaana

 

[Zanzibar]

Worst programs

I've seen many, many bad programs, but the absolute worst I have ever seen was Victor Petrenko's "Who Let the Dogs Out" program that he skated at COI during the 2002 Olympic tour. I don't know how many people had the dubious privilege of seeing that, but it was an absolute travesty. As if the music weren't bad enough on its own, Victor's program was even worse. It was so horrible that I've blocked most of it out of my memory, but I do remember that it involved him using a handpuppet of a dog, which he "barked" at himself every time the music said "Woof, woof, woof, woof." He didn't really do very much real skating at all in the program, just a lot of posing around with his stupid puppet. Gah! It was horrible!!

YES! I remember seeing this live and it made me cringe...and then all night long those haunting words pounding in my head...."who let the dogs out? Woof, woof!! Who let the dogs out?..."

Thanks for reminding me, LOL. Actually, I think Yag's infamous "One Banana" is a howl - took a LOT of guts to do that number

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Hi Tenorguy - Your description of Sasha skating to Tristan

It's really that Love Potion No. 9.

Joe

 

[Rgirl]

Re: Worst Performance

RGirl: ITA regarding Catch Me if You Can score. Great fluttering fun stuff - subtle and like what a surprise from J Williams huh? What's so necessary I think for a great (not merely good) skate is for the skater to LISTEN to the music as carefully as you do. Sorry to blow air up a person's skirt (do you wear skirts?) but its true! So funny cause as I write this I have Flower Drum Song on the tv in the background. Now wouldn't THAT be THE worst source material - if not the most inappropriate - for a good skate? I don't know if you like Mark Morris, but I love how he deconstructed The Nutcracker; and that's a piece that for me is above reproach or critical disdain (kinda like the Wizard Oz and Bananas Foster).

Hey! It's the wise and wonderful Tenorguy! Glad to hear you've been lurking, but always great to get posts from you. BTW, ITA with what you said about sentimentalism, which James Joyce defined as "unearned emotion." MK's Oly exhib didn't do it for me, but "Aranjuez" at '03 Nats did--as did her all too few performances of "Rush" (yes, "Rush") in fall '98(?) and "White Horses" in '96/97, IIRC. She didn't cry during those but at least for me, I never know what's going to push my chills button. (Well, I know some surefire things but don't we all, lol.)

Yeah, John Williams composing "Catch Me If You Can" and not a glockenspiel to be heard. He's out of control! Next thing you know he'll be doing 12-tone stuff! J/K. I understand he's a very nice man and his musicians love him.

So you had "Flower Drum Song" on TCM's "31 Days of Oscar" too, lol. Or perhaps like me, I should say you had it on as long as you could stand it. I didn't catch what it won an Oscar for. I don't think I want to know.

I'm not much of Mark Morris fan, but ITA that it was great to see him go for the throat of "Nutcracker" in a large scale way. Actually, lots of less well known or smaller modern dance companies had been doing eville Nutcrackers for decades, at least several of which I thought were much better than Morris's. But he has/had the name and got the attention and no matter what I think of Morris's choreography in general, I'm always happy to see an untouchable touched if not downright felt up.

BTW, I do wear skirts. I just don't wear panties. Helps with all that careful listening I do.
Rgirl