Thoughts on TEB

[waxel]

Okay, I just checked a post by kwanfan1212 which reminded me that a competition is fair game in this forum after it airs on television.

So. Without this somehow turning into a Michelle-Sasha-Irina discussion, I'd be interested in hearing some gut opinions. In general and specifically:

Were Asada's PCS scores inflated? I think so. She is a delightful young skater with enormous potential... and I like her. But the fact that she was so close to Cohen and Arakawa in the PCS segment alarmed me. While she did not outscore them in that segment, she DID outscore Rochette.

Inoue & Baldwin: Is there value in attempting a 3 Lutz if you never land it? (Good attempt on the throw 3 Axel.)

Thoughts?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Asada had a joie de patinage (joy in skating) style. It got gold medals for Oksana and Tara. It takes preference over the more serious skaters. Doing so many 3x2s with the joy (and not the scare others have) is a winner both in tech and pcs. that's the way it's been in skateland.

Joe

 

[Jhar55]

Even with Sasha's fll I think she out skated Asada with the more mature program, guess it must have been the triple axle. Asada is a very cute skater who need to mature a little.

 

[Rgirl]

I was disappointed sent by the judges, ie, that nothing has changed in judging but the system.

Judges still see jumps as the be-all end-all in singles skating, or at least for the ladies. If you're the "jumping bean at 15," have okay to excellent spins, good speed, and a modicum of grace, a veteran lady has to skate like Evgeni Plushenko at his best in order to beat the bean. All the pages and pages of what the judges are supposed to be giving more weight to under the NJS, such as musicality, edging, speed (though Asada is good at those last two), control, balanced choreography, a totality of choreographic interpretation, arm movements and control, use of the head, torso, edge control, excellent spin control and speed, and many more, [still as evidenced by the low scores received by Arakawa at Cup of China and now here by Sasha Cohen and Arakawa.

The veteran skaters, most of them, have used the NJS to work hard on improving all their non-jump skills as well as their jumps, only to have the judges give not only high TES scores for jumps--that's fair--but also high levels, with varying degrees of GOE--thanks, Doggygirl--for non-jump elements such as spirals; combo spins; and footwork, any one, some, or all of which may be mediocre at best.

Also, the PCS scores have been reflecting the TES scores on almost a 1:1 ratio. In other words, if you jump well, magically, you also have high PCS for choreography, skating skills, transitions, and most other PCS. True, under the OBO system, those with high technical scores tended to also get high presentation scores, eg, Michelle's presentation scores would tend to be a tenth of a point or more higher than her tech scores, whereas Irina's presentation scores would tend to be a tenth of a point or so lower than her tech scores, to give just two examples.

I think there's always been a "baby ballerina" score if you're a precocious technical skater with a tiny body and frisky personality, but at least with Oksana, her overall speed as well as the speed and positions on her spins, not to mention a level of grace that we have not seen the likes of since 1997, not even from Oksana, all contributed to the "could have gone either way" '94 ladies OGM, IMO.

As for Tara, she too, like Oksana, had a lot more than just consistent jumps and a frisky personality, though the 3lp/3lp was a biggie.

Suzy Wynne said during the Ladies LP about Asada (paraphrase), "The solidity of her jumps makes the observer feel comfortable watching her, which makes one feel she is better than she really is." I agree. I think this was also the case with Tara and Michelle, especially from 1995 until the '02 Olympics. This is obviously the minority opinion and JMO, but I think Michelle's jump stability--except for her uncharacteristically season of poor jumping, due mostly to her fractured toe, IMO--along with Lori Nichol; sophisticated choreography made Michelle look like she was a better than she was, which I also swore I'd never post, lol.

On the other side of the coin, there was the young Russian teenager whose name I can't remember who did the 3Axel in competition the same day a Japanese teen who also did her first competitive 3Axel in the same event on the same day. The Russian girl, unfortunately, could only jump, and I mean ONLY jump, whereas everything else she did was awkward and clumsy. BTW, this was about 3 years ago and at least I've heard nothing about the Russian 3Axel girl since.

Also, the "cute" factor has made many fans and the media celebrate very pretty and/or cute skaters while they went "ho-hum" over more technically proficient and talented skaters because they were not tiny and cute. Example, Sarah Hughes. Sarah had taken the "slow and steady [improvements] wins the OGM" approach, rather than the overnight celebrity approach, which, to be fair, often skaters have no control over the latter happening to them.

However, Sarah also went through an awkward stage, (or at least most people except Idle think so between the ages of about 13 and 15 or so. Sarah was also "tall" compared to other skaters of her time. Sarah towered over Michelle, Tara, Sasha, and Naomi Nari Nam while all but Michelle were "on the rise." Sarah usually won third or second place at Nationals, yet the fans nor the media ever made her "the next big star in skating!" Yet I don't think I saw Sarah fall on a jump but once in four or five years, plus her other skating skills were terrific--except her flutz, the bane of most US ladies' skaters, anyway.

IMO, the only thing holding Sarah back was a somewhat cautious approach to her skating and not being "tiny and cute." that is, until the '02 Ladies LP during which, feeling she had nothing to lose, she skated with a freedom and abandon that made the audience go wild and enabled Sarah to win the OGM at 16. But despite all of this, plus being on a soup can, Sarah never had her millions of "cute rooters," because despite being an intelligent girl accepted to an Ivy League university and quickly growing into a very attractive young woman, it ain't like being tiny and traditionally "pretty" enough to be made into and sold as a doll, the ultimate achievement for a US young woman.

So I think that no matter how much the ISU, national federations, skaters, coaches, and fans say they want a NJS that rewards skating elements relative to their difficulty and quality of performance, a program in which the skater lands, even wonkily (s long as on one foot) a bunch of combo jumps and every solo planned jump, despite weaknesses on most of the program components and non-judge elements, the "cute and tiny jumping bean" will outscore even a clean sophisticated and thoroughly well-rounded skater such as Shizuka. That's what the judges want, that's what most of the fans want, and that appears to be what they're getting.

Until figure skating fans and the culture get serious--ha ha--about giving veteran skaters between 21 and 26 their due in rewarding the genius of their work the way we respect Dorothy Hamill or the way sold-out crowds paid big money to see prima ballerina Dame Margot Fonteyn perform around the world until she was 60, then, without sounding pompous, or more pompa$$ than usual, baby ballerina skaters will be the norm in figure skating for their careers of about four years or until they sustain a career-ending injury, whichever comes first. It won't be because of the judges, the fans, skaters, or coaches. It will be because that's what the general public wants.

So, if you love figure skating, kick and scream--via email or on paper, that is--to the USFSA, the ISU, IOC, and every other group you can think of. Right now, too many dreams of young women who have worked too hard through the toughest parts of their careers are being dashed by a system that values cuteness over skill, capability, training, and the beauty of a superbly talented and well-trained skater. Of course many skaters work as hard and intelligently as possible and never make it, but skaters know those odds going in.

I guess now the ladies also have to add the odds of a cute and tiny superjumper coming along with the right birthday at the right time dashing all their hopes and hard-work toward a World gold or OGM.

As an instructor once said, "Life isn't fair, but if we have the opportunity, we should try to make it as fair as possible whenever we can."

Rgirl

BTW, this is not to take anything away from the hard work and talents of Oksana, Tara, NNN, Sasha, or Mao. They were/are gifted beyond their years. But the preoccupation with "little girls in tiny boxes," and certainly not just by the US, is a topic we could discuss to great depths, though I think the topic is more suited for the Salon.com website.

 

[nymkfan51]

Rgirl, you make some very valid points. Especially in relation to the TES/PCS scores. Joe and I both mentioned similar thoughts, in that each PCS category should be judged separately ... not that if you land your jumps you get high scores across the board for everything ... ie you are a great jumper, but couldn't interpret yourself out of paper bag if you're life depended on it!
I actually think the spins have almost become a joke. Skaters like Sasha who had spectacular spins, now have to tack on 3 more positions to get to a higher point level, even if it then makes the spin slow and ugly. Tell me how this helps the sport.
And I most definitely think that good solid skating ... deep clean edges and speed, great postiions and posture, are overlooked unless you land your jumps and do level 3/4 spins. The message is ... land it (regardless of what it looks like) and we will reward you.
I hope this system doesn't last the way it is now.
If TPTB think figure skating has lost viewership already ... just wait till they get a load of this mess.

 

[Mathman]

As usual, you said a mouthful, Rgirl. A couple of comments.

1. I think you are certainly right in saying that what the general public expects and wants out of figure skating (in so far as it pays any attention to figure skating at all) is "little girls in tiny boxes."

Life isn't fair.

"Dear ISU, USFS, TV networks, etc.: Please stop liking cute little ballerina/jumping bean type skaters, OK?"

2. Did great choreography well executed, precocious athleticism, astonishing reliability on jump elements and an unmatched talent for playing, like a master virtuoso, on the heartstrings of the audience -- did these things make the young Michelle Kwan "look better than she was?" Another point of view is that figure skating is first and foremost visual art -- what you see is what you get.

3. About the New Judging System, yes, the more things change the more they stay the same.

But the objection raised by NYMKfan just above is being expressed more and more frequently by skaters as well. Robin Cousins says in the current issue of Blades on Ice:

"As someone who was brought up to value the quality of what we did on ice, I find it hard to think that we may never (again) see a perfect outside camel spin with no body change or excess movement...

"Skaters have to build so many elements into a program for points that they will lose the very thing we can do on ice that no one in the dance world can do: go 30 miles an hour while holding a beautiful outside edge, body frozen as the music soars."

I agree. All these "ungainly changes of position just to prove that you can do ungainly chances of position" will kill audience interest in this sport.

Mathman

 

[dorispulaski]

Rgirl, Thanks for a great analysis.

One addition:
As far as I can tell, the judges are being even more blatant about using PCS as place holder than they ever were under 6.0. Under 6.0, just as you said, a favored skater might get a .1 or perhaps a .2 addition to their presentation scores. But not more than that. Under PCS, a team that deserves perhaps 6.3.will be bumpted up to 7.5. In pairs, the weighting of the PCS is 1.6, which makes it even worse. I am completely :scratch: at O&S's PCS scores again at COR vs. at SA. I downloaded the clip, and although the lifts are smoother (which is after all, not a skating skill), everything else was the same or worse than SA, including the scratching of skates being loud enough to hear over the Anvil Chorus.

And a biased head caller can make things even worse--for example the decision that Pang's hop between 2A's was a step, and not a hop, and therefore their sequence did not count.

 

[soogar]

I don't know if it was my TV, but Sasha was crawling out there in TEB. She had nice positions but didn't even look like she was getting a lot of speed out there. When Shiz skated after her, the quality and the speed was so much better on everything. As for Mao, I think she gets the benefit of the doubt on her jumps, esp the 3 axel. In slow mo it looked like she landed it with the toe pick forward and turned very quickly on the ice.

My thoughts on Kimmie v. Mao (b/c I downloaded Kimmie), Kimmie and probably Yu Na are going to pass Mao by. I see Mao pushing a lot of jumps and her technique looks questionable on many of them. Kimmie OTOH is doing everything right and developing good technique along the way. It will serve her well in her career.

 

[Frau Muller]

Asada had a joie de patinage (joy in skating) style. It got gold medals for Oksana and Tara. It takes preference over the more serious skaters. Doing so many 3x2s with the joy (and not the scare others have) is a winner both in tech and pcs. that's the way it's been in skateland.

Joe

BINGO! Right on, Joe. Exactly my point in the other threads. Mao was ALIVE (sparkling...bubbly...on fire...registering emotion on her face, etc. etc.). Hence, IMO, Mao totally deserved her artistic/impression marks over the cooller robotics of Sasha.

 

[Mathman]

About the PCS tracking the tech scores, I have to admit that I am not so terribly up in arms about this. If you put on a one-man splat-fest, then naturally you did not exhibit very strong "Skating Skills" and "Presentation/Execution."

If you had an interesting and unusual lead-in to a jump, and that interesting and unusual lead-in made you fall, you are not going to get much credit for "Transitions."

Sitting on your behind with a dazed look on your face is probably not what the music calls for in "Interpretation" and Choreography.

Sasha's TEB marks are a good case in point. As pretty as she looked, as as much as it warmed the cockles of our little hearts to see her out there , in sober fact, as Doggygirl pointed out on another thread, she made mistakes on five of her seven jumping passes.

She got negative GOEs on her 3/2/2 combo, on her triple flip, on her triple toe, on her 2A/3S sequence, and on her triple Sal. Well, no wonder the judges placed Asada and Arakawa ahead of her.

MM

 

[Frau Muller]

I...., this was about 3 years ago and at least I've heard nothing about the Russian 3Axel girl since.....

That was Ludmilla Nelidina. Very sad story. According to Russian news articles, she retired from skating towards the end of the 2003/2004 season (prior to Russian Nationals that season), after experiencing deep depression. I hope that she has recovered emotionally.

 

[Frau Muller]

Somewhat-related question: Is Yu Na Kim eligible for the Turin Olympics? If so, then she may be the 'baby' on which we should be focusing in Feb '06. Along with Czisny, of course.

 

[attyfan]

As I understand it, Yu Na Kim is not age eligible for the '06 Olys. In fact, the way I heard it, her federation didn't even send her to the Karl Schaefer (sp?) Memorial (which, apparently, like the GP, does not have the same age requirements as Worlds or Olys) to secure a spot at Olys for Korea, because they wouldn't have an age eligible skater to go to Olys

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Sasha's TEB marks are a good case in point. As pretty as she looked, as as much as it warmed the cockles of our little hearts to see her out there , in sober fact, as Doggygirl pointed out on another thread, she made mistakes on five of her seven jumping passes.

She got negative GOEs on her 3/2/2 combo, on her triple flip, on her triple toe, on her 2A/3S sequence, and on her triple Sal. Well, no wonder the judges placed Asada and Arakawa ahead of her.MM

Doggygirl saw mistakes on her jump passes. Good for her being observant. I was just carried away by her mature skate that I was happy to be part of the Sashadora fans. If it were a 6.0 system, I would have given it to Sasha.(It's no secret my feelings towards teenyboppers.)

However, Mao skated with the maturity of her age. It was totally comparable to Oksana and Tara who skated the bubbling mature style of a teenager. Mao, imo, was doing the same and it's the best anyone her age can do.

I didn't take note of the jump passes but I did notice the jumps. Let us acknowledge Sasha has never had a WOW jump performance. This one was the no different. But I do not understand why the judges gave her negatives. I would have just have given her the base value. It wasn't special but she did it.

And MM. I think Asada had more going for her than just 3/2/2 for the win.

Joe

 

[shine]

Rgirl, that's a wonerful post and puts the judging, which has been very frustrating, into perspective.
I often question the ability of the judges...I trust that they are all great at evaluating the technical aspects of figure skating, but after recognizing the obvious, how exactly good are they at appreciating the more subtle areas of skating? Flexibility, big smiles, good spinning and jumping are all rather easy to see, but things such as musicalty, interpretation, phrasing, body language (usage of arms, neck, and waist etc, as opposed to extroverted facial expression) are not as much, but to me those are what distinguish the very special skaters from the rest. I cannot even put into words how wrong the marking of PCS I feel has been--granted it's no worth than the 6.0 system--but why invent so much in a new system just so it will look exactly like the old one, at least in the "second mark"? Are the judges really capable of what the rule book requires them to do? Where is the sport going?

 

[Frau Muller]

..... things such as musicalty, interpretation, phrasing, body language (usage of arms, neck, and waist etc, as opposed to extroverted facial expression) ....

Other than 'body language' (extensions), Sasha displayed none of these, IMO. Musicality-interp-phrasing means being aware that the music is playing. Not just skating through the music, with an occasional "oooh-ahhh face," as 95% of the elite-level ladies do.

At TEB, Mao & Joannie were the only two who really interpreted their music, from what was shown on ESPN.

 

[Mathman]

Doggygirl saw mistakes on her jump passes....

Joe, it wasn't Doggygirl who saw mistakes in Sasha's performance, it was the judges. You can check it out here, if you want to see the actual data that I am quoting.

http://www.isufs.org/results/gpfra05/GPFRA05_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

And MM. I think Asada had more going for her than just 3/2/2 for the win.

Again, checking the actual score sheets is quite illuminating. We all have our opinions, but the only opinions that count are those of the judging panel.

According to the judges, the jumps were all that Mao had going for her. As for as the artistic marks, the mature performances of Sasha and Shizuka were ranked ahead of Mao's youthful exuberance.

Program components:

1. Sasha 58.96
2. Shizuka 58.72
3. Mao 56.96

Points from the seven jumping passes:

1. Mao 47.5
2. Shizuka 36.7
3. Sasha 36.5

So the judges agreed with your evaluation that Sasha and Shizuka deserve the highest presentation scores.

But little Mao just absolutely creamed them on jumps. She won, not because the judges "like" a cute little jumping bean, but because points do add up.

Opinions and impressions are nice, but you can't argue with 7.1+6.3+6.4+3.7+9.0+6.7+8.3 = 47.5.

MM

 

[shine]

Other than 'body language' (extensions), Sasha displayed none of these, IMO. Musicality-interp-phrasing means being aware that the music is playing. Not just skating through the music, with an occasional "oooh-ahhh face," as 95% of the elite-level ladies do.

At TEB, Mao & Joannie were the only two who really interpreted their music, from what was shown on ESPN.

I agree- I would never say Sasha has good body language myself either.

 

[Spirit]

Okay, I can't ignore it any longer.

What the freak does "TEB" stand for? I'm going over all the competitions in my mind and can't match a single one of them to that acronym.

The closest I can come is "That Eternal Bliss," but that can't be right since Michelle hasn't skated yet this year.

 

[gkelly]

Trophee Eric Bompard