Tips for faster rotation

[Emily98]

Hi all!

I have been off the ice since the beginning of the pandemic but will finally be able to get back to it next month. I hope to make fast progress once I get back in order to make up for the lost time, so I have been working extra hard on the off ice double jumps I taught myself over the past few months. Today, I decided to take some videos to check my technique, and while the takeoffs and height look fine, I was a bit annoyed to notice that my rotation speed is significantly slower than I expected, and that the jumps are underrotated (between 1/2 and 1/4) most of the time. This was surprising to me, because when actually doing the jumps, it feels like I am snapping into a fast rotation, and my landings feel quite strong and well-balanced on one foot, so I did not realize I was underrotating and finishing the last turn with a quick little "rebound". It also appears that I am opening up my arms and legs a little bit too early in the air, which could be the reason behind the underrotations.

This brings me to my questions:
- What kind of exercises can I do to improve my fast-twitch and rotation speed? How can I learn to avoid opening up early? Everything happens so fast during the jumps that it is hard to actively remind myself to stay in the air position longer, so an exercise to make this "automatic" would be helpful.
- Are underrotations off the ice normal and easily corrected when trying the jumps on the ice, with the extra power provided by entry edges and speed?

Thank you and cheers!

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Hi all!

I have been off the ice since the beginning of the pandemic but will finally be able to get back to it next month. I hope to make fast progress once I get back in order to make up for the lost time, so I have been working extra hard on the off ice double jumps I taught myself over the past few months. Today, I decided to take some videos to check my technique, and while the takeoffs and height look fine, I was a bit annoyed to notice that my rotation speed is significantly slower than I expected, and that the jumps are underrotated (between 1/2 and 1/4) most of the time. This was surprising to me, because when actually doing the jumps, it feels like I am snapping into a fast rotation, and my landings feel quite strong and well-balanced on one foot, so I did not realize I was underrotating and finishing the last turn with a quick little "rebound". It also appears that I am opening up my arms and legs a little bit too early in the air, which could be the reason behind the underrotations.

This brings me to my questions:
- What kind of exercises can I do to improve my fast-twitch and rotation speed? How can I learn to avoid opening up early? Everything happens so fast during the jumps that it is hard to actively remind myself to stay in the air position longer, so an exercise to make this "automatic" would be helpful.
- Are underrotations off the ice normal and easily corrected when trying the jumps on the ice, with the extra power provided by entry edges and speed?

Thank you and cheers!

Hello and welcome!

My first question and most of my answers are going be: Do you have a coach, and if so what does the coach say? And if your answer is that you don't have a coach, my answer is get one ASAP!

You should not be teaching yourself jumps, especially doubles because you run the risk of injury as well as wrong technique, which sounds like it has already happened and it will be hard to correct it if your body has memorized the bad technique feeling. Muscle memory is no joke lol!

I'll wait for you to answer to go any further into answering techniques and how to correct it.

 

[Emily98]

Hi @Ic3Rabbit, thank you very much for your reply!

To answer your question, I am in between coaches at the moment as I am moving to another country in 2 weeks. I was working with a coach (although irregularly, as I didn't have many opportunities to skate) before COVID, and have found a new coach with whom I will work in the country I'm moving to. I will also finally be able to practice a few times per week and have regular lessons, for the first time in my life! Better late than never

I am definitely aware that practicing without a coach is not ideal, at least this problem will be solved soon. But just to give you a bit of context, it is not my first time doing some solo off-ice work: as I did not have nearly enough ice time to properly work on my single axel back when I was learning it, my old coach recommended me to train it at home during the summer. She did not teach remote off-ice classes so I did most of the work by myself, taking slow-mo films and making adjustments by comparing them to correct axel videos online. I landed the axel on ice the following season, which probably wouldn't have been possible if I had stuck to just the occasional lesson with my coach. Concerning the doubles, I briefly worked on some 2Sal technique with her before covid, and had a contact with her this Spring where I showed her a video of my off-ice 2Sal. She said it looked good, gave me one tip for the arm position before takeoff, and didn't seem bothered by the rotation speed. My initiative to start working on other doubles came from a comment she made after I landed my axel, saying that I would probably get the hang of the doubles quickly because once I figured out how to get into the backspin air position from the different entries, the rest would be the same for every jump. I would have stopped attempting them if this first step had caused me trouble, but it actually didn't: my takeoffs look similar to the ones demonstrated by coaches online, and I do get into the right air position. If I were making dangerous technical mistakes, wouldn't I be falling / stepping out / landing on 2 feet or in a generally wonky, unstable position? Apart from the occasional fluke, most of my landings are stable with my weight over the right side, but just not fully backwards. If I could somehow make myself turn faster from the start and stay in the tight position a fraction of a second longer, my jumps would look pretty much the same as the reference videos I have been using.

I have been doing core and arm muscle workouts, as these are important for the pull-in motion, and have noticed improvements in my strength (e.g. I can now hold a plank longer, do more push-ups in a row, etc), but no direct influence on rotation speed so far. This also applies to stationary rotations, which don't depend on a particular jump technique. I can more or less do 2 by jumping high enough, but I look painfully slow in the air. It seems like I struggle with efficiently channeling my strength to snap into the rotation; could be a problem with explosiveness or reaction time? What are your suggestions to work on that? Sorry for the long message and thanks again

 

[gliese]

- Are underrotations off the ice normal and easily corrected when trying the jumps on the ice, with the extra power provided by entry edges and speed?

Yes. I do rotated triples and can't fully rotate a double off ice. I struggle with over rotation in all my jumps. Off ice is just not the same. I use it mostly to focus on air position.

I'd really recommend weight lifting if you struggle with rotation even when in optimal rotation position and working on jumping higher. Arms and core are important, but if your legs aren't jumping up and assisting your rotation, you will be painfully slow forever. I under rotated for three years then started building leg muscle and it all changed for the better (until it became the opposite problem lol).

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Yes. I do rotated triples and can't fully rotate a double off ice. I struggle with over rotation in all my jumps. Off ice is just not the same. I use it mostly to focus on air position.

That's reassuring to hear. I'm around OP's level and my off-ice rotations are also not great :/ It was definitely a relief when rinks reopened!

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Hi @Ic3Rabbit, thank you very much for your reply!

To answer your question, I am in between coaches at the moment as I am moving to another country in 2 weeks. I was working with a coach (although irregularly, as I didn't have many opportunities to skate) before COVID, and have found a new coach with whom I will work in the country I'm moving to. I will also finally be able to practice a few times per week and have regular lessons, for the first time in my life! Better late than never

I am definitely aware that practicing without a coach is not ideal, at least this problem will be solved soon. But just to give you a bit of context, it is not my first time doing some solo off-ice work: as I did not have nearly enough ice time to properly work on my single axel back when I was learning it, my old coach recommended me to train it at home during the summer. She did not teach remote off-ice classes so I did most of the work by myself, taking slow-mo films and making adjustments by comparing them to correct axel videos online. I landed the axel on ice the following season, which probably wouldn't have been possible if I had stuck to just the occasional lesson with my coach. Concerning the doubles, I briefly worked on some 2Sal technique with her before covid, and had a contact with her this Spring where I showed her a video of my off-ice 2Sal. She said it looked good, gave me one tip for the arm position before takeoff, and didn't seem bothered by the rotation speed. My initiative to start working on other doubles came from a comment she made after I landed my axel, saying that I would probably get the hang of the doubles quickly because once I figured out how to get into the backspin air position from the different entries, the rest would be the same for every jump. I would have stopped attempting them if this first step had caused me trouble, but it actually didn't: my takeoffs look similar to the ones demonstrated by coaches online, and I do get into the right air position. If I were making dangerous technical mistakes, wouldn't I be falling / stepping out / landing on 2 feet or in a generally wonky, unstable position? Apart from the occasional fluke, most of my landings are stable with my weight over the right side, but just not fully backwards. If I could somehow make myself turn faster from the start and stay in the tight position a fraction of a second longer, my jumps would look pretty much the same as the reference videos I have been using.

I have been doing core and arm muscle workouts, as these are important for the pull-in motion, and have noticed improvements in my strength (e.g. I can now hold a plank longer, do more push-ups in a row, etc), but no direct influence on rotation speed so far. This also applies to stationary rotations, which don't depend on a particular jump technique. I can more or less do 2 by jumping high enough, but I look painfully slow in the air. It seems like I struggle with efficiently channeling my strength to snap into the rotation; could be a problem with explosiveness or reaction time? What are your suggestions to work on that? Sorry for the long message and thanks again

The part I bolded. Not necessarily, jumping and perfecting technique is alot more complex than that. There are things one probably doesn't even think about, that could be off that an expert coach could point out to correct.

 

[Emily98]

Yes. I do rotated triples and can't fully rotate a double off ice. I struggle with over rotation in all my jumps. Off ice is just not the same. I use it mostly to focus on air position.

I'd really recommend weight lifting if you struggle with rotation even when in optimal rotation position and working on jumping higher. Arms and core are important, but if your legs aren't jumping up and assisting your rotation, you will be painfully slow forever. I under rotated for three years then started building leg muscle and it all changed for the better (until it became the opposite problem lol).

Hi, thanks for replying! That is great to hear. I figured there would be a difference between the rotation one can get off and on the ice, but I didn't think it could be as extreme as this. If you're overrotating your triples, are you considering learning a 3A or a quad?

Weight lifting sounds like a good idea. I have not had access to a gym during the pandemic, for the same reason that I haven't been able to skate (living with high-risk parents and having to avoid every public place...), so I have stuck to plyometric exercises to improve leg strength. It did help a bit with jump height. But there's only so much one can do at home, and I am looking forward to seeing what kind of progress I can make once I get my hands on some gym equipment!

 

[Emily98]

The part I bolded. Not necessarily, jumping and perfecting technique is alot more complex than that. There are things one probably doesn't even think about, that could be off that an expert coach could point out to correct.

Ok, I see. I look forward to starting lessons, it should definitely help with fine-tuning and getting that extra bit of rotation then!

 

[gliese]

If you're overrotating your triples, are you considering learning a 3A or a quad

I still can't land them, they just come down over rotated every now and then and hopefully on one foot. I usually (almost always) fall though. I don't have enough control over my body in the air for a 3A or a quad.

 

[Emily98]

I still can't land them, they just come down over rotated every now and then and hopefully on one foot. I usually (almost always) fall though. I don't have enough control over my body in the air for a 3A or a quad.

Good luck mastering those triples then! You can do it

 

[kolyadafan2002]

That's reassuring to hear. I'm around OP's level and my off-ice rotations are also not great :/ It was definitely a relief when rinks reopened!

Standing rotation either requires a lot more leg/ankle strength, (and possibly arm strength but I'm not 100% sure), or the right body build to be extremely aerodynamic.

On the ice you can use momentum and technique to compensate to produce good results. (And often you can make up 0.5 on prerotation for many of the jumps)

For some off ice jumps will be better, for others worse. Some like off ice axel better for example but worse on standing rotation.

I'd strongly recommend learning how to do double rotations off the ice generally for skaters who want to learn doubles, but the more rotation you add the larger the disparity between off ice and on ice. For example, if a skater can do triples on the ice, I'd assume they'd be able to do 2-2.5 rotations.

But some people will reach a point where every 1/10 of a rotation extra is ridiculously difficult compared to adding more rotation on the ice. Some jumping quads on ice may not get much more than 2.5 off the ice for example.

 

[gliese]

Good luck mastering those triples then! You can do it

Thank you! Maybe one day I could try a triple axel. Your comment makes me kinda want to. I dream about it a lot but that's dreams lol. But goals are formed by dreams.

Good luck on your jumps too. I also forgot to give advice for opening early. I find that once I'm on the ice it's less of a problem because when you're actually traveling a distance through the air (instead of jumping up mostly straight), it's easier to know when you're close enough to backwards to open up. A lot of problems fix themselves once you have a pair of blades under your feet. But if it persists, the harness will be your best bet in my opinion to really figure out when to begin to open up.

That's reassuring to hear. I'm around OP's level and my off-ice rotations are also not great :/ It was definitely a relief when rinks reopened!

Yeah I was honestly surprised when the rinks opened and I suddenly was a rotational jumping bean. I had been off the ice longer than most because I had been injured before. Then I decided to go back to skating and could only do off ice because no rinks were open. I used to underrotate a lot pre injury and even though I didn't gain any rotation in my off ice jumps, I fixed a lot of the technique (straighter air position, proper use of arms) and that made a much bigger difference than when I was just trying to jump and rotate as much as possible. Like I can do crappy off ice doubles, but it's not worth it because they're crap and don't really improve anything. My biggest advice for using your off ice wisely is to focus on improving, not numbers. The number of rotations changes on the ice. The number of minutes you can sustain activity changes on the ice. The number of sit spin squats (also known as a pistol squat) you can do changes on the ice. Focusing on these numbers and comparing them to what you need on the ice is a waste of time. Just focus on improving something all the time and always begin with technique.

 

[WednesdayMarch]

My biggest advice for using your off ice wisely is to focus on improving, not numbers. The number of rotations changes on the ice. The number of minutes you can sustain activity changes on the ice. The number of sit spin squats (also known as a pistol squat) you can do changes on the ice. Focusing on these numbers and comparing them to what you need on the ice is a waste of time. Just focus on improving something all the time and always begin with technique.

This. 100% this.

 

[Emily98]

Thank you! Maybe one day I could try a triple axel. Your comment makes me kinda want to. I dream about it a lot but that's dreams lol. But goals are formed by dreams.

That's the spirit! My goal is to land a 2A at some point, not sure triples will be an option as I'm already 22 years old, but I'll definitely work through the double jumps at least. Crossing my fingers for both of us to achieve our dreams!

But if it persists, the harness will be your best bet in my opinion to really figure out when to begin to open up.

I hadn't thought about that as I never really worked with the harness except for one session when learning the axel. I'll bring it up with my new coach if necessary. These past few days I tried to work more on the air position in my off-ice exercises, focusing on the feeling of my hands against my torso and on the ankle contact, and actively thinking about maintaining this contact longer than usual. I also practiced landing jumps into a backspin. Apparently that was helpful, I already feel more in control in the air and seem to complete a bit more rotation.

My biggest advice for using your off ice wisely is to focus on improving, not numbers.

I will think of it this way from now on! Going from my experience with the 1A and discussions with some other skaters, I had the wrong belief that jumping off ice was easier and that I should land every jump on the floor to have a chance of mastering them on ice. This is why I was trying so hard to get all my off-ice doubles clean and fully rotated. After reading the replies here, I will focus less on this and more on correcting / improving one detail at a time.

 

[gliese]

That's the spirit! My goal is to land a 2A at some point, not sure triples will be an option as I'm already 22 years old, but I'll definitely work through the double jumps at least. Crossing my fingers for both of us to achieve our dreams!

If you tell yourself triples aren't an option, then they definitely won't be. In all seriousness though, that extra amount of rotation to get from 2A to triples is super easy for some and insanely difficult for others.

 

[Emily98]

If you tell yourself triples aren't an option, then they definitely won't be.

I am trying not to tell myself anything until I actually get there. I believe that nothing is impossible, and will challenge myself to reach as high a level as I can. After all, being a figure skater is one of my childhood dreams, and I am motivated to chase it now that I finally have the chance! But I am also aware that 22 is a relatively late age to transition from recreational skating to more serious training, so I have to stay realistic. I'd rather break down the dream into manageable goals, be happy and aim higher every time one is achieved, than imagine myself having all my triples right away and get disappointed in case my body doesn't let that happen.

that extra amount of rotation to get from 2A to triples is super easy for some

Crossing my fingers to be in that lucky group of people! From your experience, is the gap between 2A and triples somewhat correlated with the one between 1A and doubles? E.g. if someone got the hang of doubles quite quickly after landing their single axel, do they also usually have an easier time going from 2A to triples?

 

[gliese]

I am trying not to tell myself anything until I actually get there. I believe that nothing is impossible, and will challenge myself to reach as high a level as I can. After all, being a figure skater is one of my childhood dreams, and I am motivated to chase it now that I finally have the chance! But I am also aware that 22 is a relatively late age to transition from recreational skating to more serious training, so I have to stay realistic. I'd rather break down the dream into manageable goals, be happy and aim higher every time one is achieved, than imagine myself having all my triples right away and get disappointed in case my body doesn't let that happen.

Crossing my fingers to be in that lucky group of people! From your experience, is the gap between 2A and triples somewhat correlated with the one between 1A and doubles? E.g. if someone got the hang of doubles quite quickly after landing their single axel, do they also usually have an easier time going from 2A to triples?

It wasnt' for me. I landed my axel 6 years ago and didn't have clean doubles until this year and I rotate triples even though I don't really land them. I guess it depends on when the ability to properly rotate "clicks" for someone.