Top 10 Ladies in Skating History?

[Tonichelle]

Where is the love, Toni? Where is the love?

it's with the pretty skater boys

 

[antmanb]

Even Frank Caroll said that Michelle skated too cautiously at Nagano. Perhaps he said this to ward off any idea in Michelle's head that she was robbed. He had witnessed how such negative thoughts had turned Linda Fratianne bitter -- a bitterness that has follwed her all of her life.

You can but hope because in that case it would have been Frank that learned the biggest lesson since he did the most wuzrobbing of anyone about Fratianne and was still all piss and vinegar about it even a couple of years ago!

Ant

 

[janetfan]

To me, the most important criterion is body of work. That is why I would still put Michelle Kwan at number one. Just read through the list of her programs from 1996 to 2004. Without peer or rival, IMHO.

I think I agree to an extent with this statement and Michelle does indeed have an impressive body of work.

But I wonder if some of this has to due with the circumstances of her era?

When we think of the top skaters who preceeded Michelle in the 80's and early 90's what was different?

Do people remember Kat for her "body of work" or primarily for her medals and titles?
Is Midori remembered for her beautiful programs or her superior jumps and skating skills?
And Kristi? Who can name her LP's or SP's today and associate them with a piece of music the way we do for Michelle?

I think skating changed dramtically in the 90's after the figures were eliminated.
Thinking of how many hours Kat, Midori, Kristi (and the others) had to spend practicing figures I don't see how it was possible for them to come up with the same types of programs Michelle did. When we think of another skater known for her "body of work" Chen-Lu comes to mind. She showed us many memorable programs in the 90's and after the figures were gone.

With figures eliminated from competition this gave the best skaters of the 90's a chance to really work on creating masterful programs, particularly the LP's.

Now it is interesting to consider where we are in 2010.
6.0 is gone - replaced by CoP - and whatever it's supporters try to claim, many fans can see that some of the beauty has gone out of skating.

When we look back and compare Yuna and maybe Mao to Michelle there is going to be a big difference in how we think of them.

Yuna is going to be remembered for her record breaking point totals and possibly a few SP's and not her "body of work."

Is this fair? Comparing their performances of "Scheherazade" it becomes evident that Yuna's skating compares favorably with Michelle's and certain aspects appear to be clearly superior.

If Yuna retires after this season her "body of work" will not be a large as the skaters who didn't have to wait until they were 16 to compete at the Worlds and the Olympics. If Yuna and Mao had been able to compete in '06 they might already have Olympic medals and another Worlds medal.


Michelle has an absolute advantage over the skaters that will follow her because of this age rule.

Then of course is the fact that Yuna, Mao and the others today are skating to score points. Balanced and well paced programs are of secondary nature to them in their quest to rack up points.

My conclusion is that Michelle's place in skating history is very secure. Girls can't compete at 14 anymore and their senior careers will be much shorter.
Because of this and how they are forced to skate under CoP I doubt if another skater will come along anytime soon to challenge Michelle's "body of work."

That makes me a little sad.
I agree with the "body of work" statement and find it a strong condemnation of CoP scoring. In evaluating skaters the era's and rules they competed under must be considered.

 

[i love to skate]

That makes me a little sad.
I agree with the "body of work" statement and find it a strong condemnation of CoP scoring. In evaluating skaters the era's and rules they competed under must be considered.

What about V/M? When they retire they are going to be known for their body of work - and they have only been on the senior circuit for four years. Their four senior free dances have been outstanding, moving, and innovative. Their OD's have been great as well and they had some great junior programs as well (loved their 2003/2004 FD!).

I don't think it has much to do with age, it just matters on how the programs are put together and choreographed. BTW, some could have made a strong case that V/M deserved to go to Torino (Tessa was 16) they didn't get too however, but that hasn't stopped them from skating memorable programs.

 

[janetfan]

What about V/M? When they retire they are going to be known for their body of work - and they have only been on the senior circuit for four years. Their four senior free dances have been outstanding, moving, and innovative. Their OD's have been great as well and they had some great junior programs as well (loved their 2003/2004 FD!).

I don't think it has much to do with age, it just matters on how the programs are put together and choreographed. BTW, some could have made a strong case that V/M deserved to go to Torino (Tessa was 16) they didn't get too however, but that hasn't stopped them from skating memorable programs.

I am not as knowledegable about Dance as the other disciplines. I am aware of the longevity of top Dance teams from the 80's and 90's and think V/M are more like Yuna. They are current "State-of-Art - but 4 programs does not necessarily get a skater or team onto the magical list.

But if you are a Dance fan, it would be interesting if you would share your top 10 or top 5 Dance teams with us.

My list is not worth anything because the "Duchesnays" are second right under T/D and I would put B/K 3rd or 4th because I simply enjoy watching them more.

The Russian/Eastern Euro teams from the past all look the same to me....boy and girl skating together and are passionately in love....... I like a little more varierty. :yes:

 

[i love to skate]

I am not as knowledegable about Dance as the other disciplines. I am aware of the longevity ot top Dance teams from the 80's and 90's and think V/M are more like Yuna. They are current "State-of-Art but 4 programs does not necessarily get a skater or team onto the magical list.

I don't know - I think four programs that were masterpieces and innovative certainly is a great body of work. Skaters are not going to stay around for long periods of time anymore though - so a large body of work like Michelle's isn't going to be very common.

BTW, here's Tessa and Scott's FD from when they were Junior National Champions at the age of 14 and 16. They get a standing ovation - even from Shae Lynn Bourne.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W02hROo1cXI

But if you are a Dance fan, it would be interesting if you would share your top 10 or top 5 Dance teams with us.

My list is not worth anything because the "Duchesnays" are second right under T/D and I would put B/K 3rd or 4th because I simply enjoy watching them more.

The Russian teams from the past all look the same to me....boy and girl skating together and are passionately in love....... I like a little more varierty. :yes:

I have only really gotten into dance since COP came into play. The only dance team I liked pre COP was B/K who were the defiition of innovative and probably the best example of way 6.0 needed to be changed - they were constantly held down because they were from Canada :no: I am too young to have watched the Duchesnays and the majority of the Russian teams I found to be over the top.

 

[janetfan]

BTW, here's Tessa and Scott's FD from when they were Junior National Champions at the age of 14 and 16. They get a standing ovation - even from Shae Lynn Bourne.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W02hROo1cXI



I have only really gotten into dance since COP came into play. The only dance team I liked pre COP was B/K who were the defiition of innovative and probably the best example of way 6.0 needed to be changed - they were constantly held down because they were from Canada :no: I am too young to have watched the Duchesnays and the majority of the Russian teams I found to be over the top.

Thanks, I enjoyed the clip and am a big fan of V/M.

Here is a calmer routine from the Duchesnays - that still managed to break a few rules. This team was to Dance what Toller Cranston was to Men's free skating - but they were even more innovative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMFxoLjFJr0

Dance looks much different today because of Robin Dean's choreos and the "ice-breaking" programs skated by the Duchesnays. They broke so many rules so often in their career than Dance finaly had to move forward and change.

 

[evangeline]

Then of course is the fact that Yuna, Mao and the others today are skating to score points. Balanced and well paced programs are of secondary nature to them in their quest to rack up points.

My conclusion is that Michelle's place in skating history is very secure. Girls can't compete at 14 anymore and their senior careers will be much shorter.
Because of this and how they are forced to skate under CoP I doubt if another skater will come along anytime soon to challenge Michelle's "body of work."

That makes me a little sad.
I agree with the "body of work" statement and find it a strong condemnation of CoP scoring. In evaluating skaters the era's and rules they competed under must be considered.

I completely disagree. Michelle's body of work is a testament to her great talent as a skater, not a strong condemnation of CoP scoring. I think you are forgetting the fact that Michelle Kwan's body of work (and career length) was more of the exception than the rule under 6.0--there were plenty of short careers under 6.0 (Oksana Baiul, Tara Lipinski, etc), just as there were plenty of boring skaters under 6.0. I would even argue that not allowing skaters to compete at 14 is good for the sport artistically--it allows the skaters to find time to grow up, mature as skaters and makes it less likely for the meteoric rise of flash-in-the-pan jumping beans who win everything at 14 and have their jumps disappear just as they develop a style of their own.

I also think that you forget that even in 6.0, skaters design programs to rack up points (however indirectly)--how else can you explain the front-loading of jumps that is found both in 6.0 and CoP? Under every system, skaters will do what gets them more points with the judges.

It's equally possible to do an artistic skate under CoP as it is to do a dull skate under 6.0. In the end, skaters who have artistry have it under any system/era, skaters who don't, do not. John Curry, Toller Cranson and Janet Lynn are known for their beautiful programs even though they had to skate in the era of figures. Skating under CoP hasn't stopped Jeremy Abbott or Stephane Lambiel from having beautiful, well-constructed programs.


And who says Yu-Na won't be known for her body of work? El Tango de Roxanne, Danse Macabre, the Lark Ascending, her Gershwin LP this season are all wonderful programs. Just because Yu-Na excels in SPs doesn't mean that they shouldn't count. SPs are programs too.

 

[jenaj]

ITA.

I love Michelle (and it's paining me to admit this) but Tara skated her LP lights-out that night. Maybe Michelle should've won if she skated in Nagano like she did at Nationals that year, but...well, she didn't.

I can't believe I'm entering into this age-old controversy, but here goes. I think Michelle should have won in Nagano. Say all you want about choreography, etc., Michelle wins hands-down over Tara on presentation. Her positions are better, she feels the music better, her skating skills are superior. She also had a maturity that Tara didn't have. As for tech, if strict judging had been applied, Michelle would have won on tech, too. Tara didn't have a lutz, her jumps were tiny and at least one of her triple combinations was probably underrotated. Her spins were ordinary and her spirals a bit weak. At best, she should have tied Michelle on tech and the gold should have gone to Michelle on presentation.

 

[Mathman]

*whole post*

Still, I think Janetfan makes an interesting point. Katarina Witt is an all-time great skater because she won two Olympic gold medals during an era when the Olympics were riding high. Back then winning the Olympics was like, what else is there?

Nowadays the first thing we hear is, Whoa, did you hear? Yu-na Kim scored 210 points! That's the all time top score ever!

But it was kind of that way during 6.0, too. Alexei Yagudin got more 6.0s in international championships than any other skater in the history of the known universe! Yay!

 

[janetfan]

I completely disagree. Michelle's body of work is a testament to her great talent as a skater, not a strong condemnation of CoP scoring. I think you are forgetting the fact that Michelle Kwan's body of work (and career length) was more of the exception than the rule under 6.0--there were plenty of short careers under 6.0 (Oksana Baiul, Tara Lipinski, etc), just as there were plenty of boring skaters under 6.0. I would even argue that not allowing skaters to compete at 14 is good for the sport artistically--it allows the skaters to find time to grow up, mature as skaters and makes it less likely for the meteoric rise of flash-in-the-pan jumping beans who win everything at 14 and have their jumps disappear just as they develop a style of their own.

I also think that you forget that even in 6.0, skaters design programs to rack up points (however indirectly)--how else can you explain the front-loading of jumps that is found both in 6.0 and CoP? Under every system, skaters will do what gets them more points with the judges.

It's equally possible to do an artistic skate under CoP as it is to do a dull skate under 6.0. In the end, skaters who have artistry have it under any system/era, skaters who don't, do not. John Curry, Toller Cranson and Janet Lynn are known for their beautiful programs even though they had to skate in the era of figures. Skating under CoP hasn't stopped Jeremy Abbott or Stephane Lambiel from having beautiful, well-constructed programs.


And who says Yu-Na won't be known for her body of work? El Tango de Roxanne, Danse Macabre, the Lark Ascending, her Gershwin LP this season are all wonderful programs. Just because Yu-Na excels in SPs doesn't mean that they shouldn't count. SPs are programs too.

First off Michelle's body of work, which I agree is impressive has absolutely nothing to do with CoP. It happens to fall exactly in the time frame I mentioned - after figures and before CoP.

Is it a coincidence? I don't believe in coincidences

You may disagree - but many skating experts feel that today's CoP programs are more physically demanding on the skaters, especially the ladies, than the 6.0 system.

I also mentioned raising the age limit. I neither agreed or disagreed about that but wanted to point out that Michelle had an advantage appearing in her 1st Worlds at age 14 and placing 4th. It is not too much of a stretch to think it may have helped Michelle greatly the following season - 1996 - when she edged out Lulu in a very close decision for the WC. I think exposure to Worlds at such a young age helped accelerate Michelle's artistic developement and I believe Frank Carroll has also said this.

The age limit also effects a skater's Olympic cycle. It is possible Yuna and Mao will only appear in one Olympics as opposed to Michelle's two. And Michelle was even an alternate in '92 and would have skated if a court ruling had not made it possible for Harding to skate. And of course we know what almost happened in 2006.

I agree that Michelle has the best body of work but think there are factors to consider that may have made it possible. I don't think Michelle's programs would have been as great in the 80's because she would have been constantly practicing figures and not concentrating as much on her two programs. I don't see how that statement is not true unless you think Michelle could have won titles with very poor figures.

I also know that if Michelle was skating now her programs would be designed more like Yuna's - with the point of milking as many points out of the CoP as possible. If Michelle didn't do that she simply would not win.

I think most here agree that many of Michelle's programs were beautiful.
Do we think Yuna and Mao's programs are more beautiful?

Has Lori Nichol lost her touch and become incapable of creating choreo today that was as nice as what she did for Michelle? I think the answer is that Lori is creating CoP choreo as opposed to 6.0 choreo and skaters are struggling mightily to master it.

If Yuna retires after this season I don't know anyone but you and Yuna's most loyal fans who would say her body of work is greater than Michelles'.

 

[gkelly]

I also mentioned raising the age limit. I neither agreed or disagreed about that but wanted to point out that Michelle had an advantage appearing in her 1st Worlds at age 14 and placing 4th. It is not too much of a stretch to think it may have helped Michelle greatly the following season - 1996 - when she edged out Lulu in a very close decision for the WC.

Actually, Kwan appeared at her 1st Worlds at age 13 and placed 8th. So she had two years of Worlds experience by the time she first won the title.

The rest of your points still stand.

 

[Mathman]

Actually, Kwan appeared at her 1st Worlds at age 13 and placed 8th. So she had two years of Worlds experience by the time she first won the title.

In fact, wasn't that the year that Frank Caroll wanted to keep Michelle in juniors one more year, but Michelle fibbed to her father that Frank said it was OK to go and take the senior test?

As I recall the story, when she got back (now a senior lady), Frank read her the riot act, saying, well young lady, you have no idea of how much hard work you just committed yourself to.

 

[evangeline]

I also know that if Michelle was skating now her programs would be designed more like Yuna's - with the point of milking as many points out of the CoP as possible. If Michelle didn't do that she simply would not win.

I think most here agree that many of Michelle's programs were beautiful.
Do we think Yuna and Mao's programs are more beautiful?

Has Lori Nichol lost her touch and become incapable of creating choreo today that was as nice as what she did for Michelle? I think the answer is that Lori is creating CoP choreo as opposed to 6.0 choreo and skaters are struggling mightily to master it.

If Yuna retires after this season I don't know anyone but you and Yuna's most loyal fans who would say her body of work is greater than Michelles'.

RE: your last sentence

Oh no you didn't! I like Yu-Na, but I haven't yet traded my closet-Kwaniac credentials for Yu-Nabot ones. Anyways, I never said (and probably will never say) that Yu-Na's body of work is greater than Michelle's, I was just responding to your previous comment that "Yuna is going to be remembered for her record breaking point totals and possibly a few SP's and not her "body of work."' Yu-Na is certainly capable of being known for her body of work, after all.

I'm not going to beat the Age Limit dead horse (as there's another thread for that) but I concede your point about the effect of figures on free skating programs--I suppose that's why someone like John Curry (IIRC) was the rarest of creatures: someone who was talented at both free skating and figures. I only wish the same could be said for Toller and Janet.

Erm, as for your question about whether Yu-Na's and Mao's programs are more beautiful than Michelle's.....I prefer Michelle's, but you have to admit that the answer to that is completely subjective. But I prefer Michelle's programs not because of the fact that they are 6.0 programs, but because I believe Michelle was probably the ultimate vessel for Lori Nichol's choreography. I don't think Lori has lost her touch/CoP has prevented her from creating good choreography. It's just that some choreographers jive extremely well with certain skaters--it's like how Tarasova was wonderful for Yagudin but seems to be terrible for Mao. Lori Nichol and Michelle Kwan (and I guess you can throw Frank Carroll in here too) were a perfect combination of talent and artistic vision that probably cannot be entirely replicated under 6.0 or CoP because, well, there is only one Michelle Kwan.

 

[janetfan]

Actually, Kwan appeared at her 1st Worlds at age 13 and placed 8th. So she had two years of Worlds experience by the time she first won the title.

The rest of your points still stand.

Thanks gkelly - in fact I saw Michelle skate Live when she was 13.

The offseason between 1995 and '96 was when Carroll fed Michelle a steady diet of Janet Lynn tapes. He felt her technique had become secure enough and it is easy to see the difference bewtween Michelle of '95 and '96.

My original post was in no way intended to put down Michelle or other skaters.
I agree Michelle has the best body of work and think she has left an amazing legacy.

I also think Michelle would have been a very successful skater in the '80s or in the present under CoP. I just think she would have skated differently in each era.

I think the 90's and early 2000's was a golden era for Ladies skating.
I am sure another golden era will follow whether it is under CoP as we now know it or perhaps after few more adjustments to CoP are made.

 

[gkelly]

In fact, wasn't that the year that Frank Caroll wanted to keep Michelle in juniors one more year, but Michelle fibbed to her father that Frank said it was OK to go and take the senior test?

No.
She competed junior in the 1992 season, age 11, qualified for Nationals, and placed I think 9th.

Then she decided to move up to seniors for 1992-93. That's the testing up without coach knowing story. She qualified for Nationals as a senior for 1993 Nationals, age 12, and placed 6th.

It was in 1994, age 13, that she went to Junior Worlds (and won), won her first senior silver medal at Nationals (behind Tonya Harding who was later stripped of the title), and went to her first Worlds to place 8th.

 

[janetfan]

RE: your last sentence

Oh no you didn't! I like Yu-Na, but I haven't yet traded my closet-Kwaniac credentials for Yu-Nabot ones. Anyways, I never said (and probably will never say) that Yu-Na's body of work is greater than Michelle's, I was just responding to your previous comment that "Yuna is going to be remembered for her record breaking point totals and possibly a few SP's and not her "body of work."' Yu-Na is certainly capable of being known for her body of work, after all.

I'm not going to beat the Age Limit dead horse (as there's another thread for that) but I concede your point about the effect of figures on free skating programs--I suppose that's why someone like John Curry (IIRC) was the rarest of creatures: someone who was talented at both free skating and figures. I only wish the same could be said for Toller and Janet.

Erm, as for your question about whether Yu-Na's and Mao's programs are more beautiful than Michelle's.....I prefer Michelle's, but you have to admit that the answer to that is completely subjective. But I prefer Michelle's programs not because of the fact that they are 6.0 programs, but because I believe Michelle was probably the ultimate vessel for Lori Nichol's choreography. I don't think Lori has lost her touch/CoP has prevented her from creating good choreography. It's just that some choreographers jive extremely well with certain skaters--it's like how Tarasova was wonderful for Yagudin but seems to be terrible for Mao. Lori Nichol and Michelle Kwan (and I guess you can throw Frank Carroll in here too) were a perfect combination of talent and artistic vision that probably cannot be entirely replicated under 6.0 or CoP because, well, there is only one Michelle Kwan.

What a lovely post Evangeline. :yes: Maybe the first time you ever agreed with me You are right that I was playing with the meaning of your words but I felt you also did the same to me.

I wrote that long post early this morning because I was thinking about what mathman had said about the "body of work."

I agree with him but I thought about it and don't think it was a coinicidence. There was the era, age factor and maybe most important of all, as you stated, that Michelle, Frank and Lori made an incredible team and were fortunate enough to come together at the right time.

ETA: I am a big Yuna fan. I think if she wins the OGM and the WC this season she will retire. We will look back on her career and wonder about '07 and '08 when she performed injured and still made the Worlds podium. I think looking back, when we evaluate her career we will wonder about '06 Olympics and Worlds.

Many believe Yuna and Mao might have medaled at each event.
I think if Yuna retires after this season her legacy will be a fine one. Due to circumstances I don't think it will match Michelle's body of work. She simply wasn't a Senior skater long enough and spent half of her Senior career fighting injuries.

 

[prettykeys]

Quoting myself from elsewhere:

1) I feel that "body of work" is an excellent way of determining "best skaters" and while I agree with janetfan's thesis that CoP possibly makes it harder for many skaters to create artistic "masterpiece" programs while trying to maintain technical excellence due to CoP's exacting, rigorous standards...YuNa is not one of those skaters. She is one of the rarer skaters (between the men and the women) who is actually rewarded better under CoP than probably in 6.0 (which would undercredit some of her technical prowess.)

2) Michelle Kwan has the largest body of very good-excellent programs. I don't feel this has to do with the ISU age limit for certain Senior-level competitions. A good program is a good program no matter what the age. Yes, Michelle did amass those many great programs by having a long career, but she could have had a long career under today's rules (I think). I am not sure how much more damaging competing under CoP is compared to 6.0 as far as physiology goes, but I don't think the difference is enough to say Michelle would have had a shorter career under CoP.

3) YuNa's currently shorter career automatically gives her a smaller body of great programs and skates. Many general fans may also say the quality of her programs/performances aren't up to Michelle's level, which is fine and fair. But the biased YuNa fan that I am, I have an excellent memory of some of my favourite YuNa programs (Tango, Lark, Danse Macabre, Scheherazade) whereas of Michelle's I can think of bits here and there. So in a paradoxical and subjective way, YuNa's repertoire of programs that have touched me is greater than Michelle's, and so by this standard YuNa has the larger body of (notable) work (to me). All under CoP.

In addition, if YuNa continues to skate yearly for another Olympic cycle, at this rate, she may have a body of work that truly could make a strong case for her being one of history's greatest.

The fact that I can remember glimpses of Michelle here and there is a compliment, not a put-down, in case anyone was wondering. I cannot remember almost any programs or "frozen moments" by other skaters who I liked (Kristi, Midori are two examples); I can also recall some Sasha moments, and Alexei Yagudin moments (and his "Winter" is burned into my memory like YuNa's Tango).

If YuNa retires after this season, I cannot make an objective case for her body of work being as large as Michelle's, although I will personally remember it the most. I also could not make the excuse that it's CoP's fault. I will, however, make a strong case that it is harder for YuNa to have as long a career as Michelle because she trains in a location that is so far from her home and family whereas Michelle stayed in her nest, and her nest is one of the largest Figure Skating centres of the world.

Lastly, when I think of the 13-year old Michelle Kwan, who would have known how much she would grow and mature and become an artistic wonder? Somehow, I am reminded of her...in Mao Asada. (Is this treacherous, for me as a YuNa-fan, to say? I don't mean it to be.) But I want so much to see a grown-up, mature, and self-directing Mao skate a program of her own and believe she has that natural feel for skating to become something like Michelle (and in my personal taste, better.) Again, perhaps not as large a body of work since the competitive environment with YuNa (and others) + CoP seems to have almost forced her to put more effort into improving jumps and other technical elements rather than enjoying the already-impressive arsenal she already has and putting them into artistic compositions...but to me she is more exquisite and has that potential. I also realize I may get a huge backlash for saying this--and I do not mean to disrespect Michelle Kwan--but my own personality does not quite mesh with hers. Michelle was a bit too emotional for me, a little too into herself (not in the arrogant way, but like "this program, my skating...is the universe!") and I prefer a slightly more detached, timeless, I'm-a-skater-but-this-is-more-than-about-me, art-for-art's-sake quality in a performance. Mao and Lu Chen have that kind of artistry which I love more.

Related to this ramble is that some people have said YuNa's skating lacks soulfulness or enough emotion...but somehow I feel she can elicit emotions from me without herself getting emotional. So yes, while I feel she could (maybe possibly in the future?) incorporate a little bit more emotion from the gut, I never felt deprived. I was dazzled and made emotional.

Does this make sense? LOL

 

[Mathman]

Does this make sense?

Yes. :thumbsup:

 

[gkelly]

Quoting myself from elsewhere:

2) Michelle Kwan has the largest body of very good-excellent programs.

We may still determine that to be true even after clarifying what counts among the body of work.

Is it only competitive programs performed at the senior level?

That puts skaters like Dorothy Hamill or Denise Biellmann or Katarina Witt or Kristi Yamaguchi at a disadvantage because many of their memorable performances were as pros. And the realities of the amateurism rules and the opportunities for earning money while competing affected their decisions about when to turn pro.

It also puts Yuna Kim and Mao Asada at a disadvantage if you don't count their performances at ages 13-15 and do count Kwan's, just because of the differences in age rules.

The fact that I can remember glimpses of Michelle here and there is a compliment, not a put-down, in case anyone was wondering. I cannot remember almost any programs or "frozen moments" by other skaters who I liked (Kristi, Midori are two examples); I can also recall some Sasha moments, and Alexei Yagudin moments (and his "Winter" is burned into my memory like YuNa's Tango).

This shows how personal the perception of great programs is. We all have our favorites, and their programs tend to be more memorable to us than other skaters'. Especially if we have gone back and rewatched those favorite performances over and over.

Newer fans may not have seen many performances from earlier eras. Older fans may have less interest in following recent skaters after their favorites retired. Japanese fans may have been exposed via television to different "iconic performances" by different skaters than American fans, or Russian or French or Canadian fans. Fans who could often travel to competitions, or who had cable or satellite TV or ability to watch online sooner than others, may have seen performances that fans who could only rely on TV broadcasts never got to see.

And so forth.

It's hard to arrive at a consensus. What's burned in your memory is meaningful to you. It might be just another nice but barely memorable performance to me. Or vice versa.