- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
Where is the love, Toni? Where is the love?
it's with the pretty skater boys
Where is the love, Toni? Where is the love?
Even Frank Caroll said that Michelle skated too cautiously at Nagano. Perhaps he said this to ward off any idea in Michelle's head that she was robbed. He had witnessed how such negative thoughts had turned Linda Fratianne bitter -- a bitterness that has follwed her all of her life.
To me, the most important criterion is body of work. That is why I would still put Michelle Kwan at number one. Just read through the list of her programs from 1996 to 2004. Without peer or rival, IMHO.
That makes me a little sad.
I agree with the "body of work" statement and find it a strong condemnation of CoP scoring. In evaluating skaters the era's and rules they competed under must be considered.
What about V/M? When they retire they are going to be known for their body of work - and they have only been on the senior circuit for four years. Their four senior free dances have been outstanding, moving, and innovative. Their OD's have been great as well and they had some great junior programs as well (loved their 2003/2004 FD!).
I don't think it has much to do with age, it just matters on how the programs are put together and choreographed. BTW, some could have made a strong case that V/M deserved to go to Torino (Tessa was 16) they didn't get too however, but that hasn't stopped them from skating memorable programs.
I am not as knowledegable about Dance as the other disciplines. I am aware of the longevity ot top Dance teams from the 80's and 90's and think V/M are more like Yuna. They are current "State-of-Art but 4 programs does not necessarily get a skater or team onto the magical list.
But if you are a Dance fan, it would be interesting if you would share your top 10 or top 5 Dance teams with us.
My list is not worth anything because the "Duchesnays" are second right under T/D and I would put B/K 3rd or 4th because I simply enjoy watching them more.
The Russian teams from the past all look the same to me....boy and girl skating together and are passionately in love....... I like a little more varierty. :yes:
BTW, here's Tessa and Scott's FD from when they were Junior National Champions at the age of 14 and 16. They get a standing ovation - even from Shae Lynn Bourne.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W02hROo1cXI
I have only really gotten into dance since COP came into play. The only dance team I liked pre COP was B/K who were the defiition of innovative and probably the best example of way 6.0 needed to be changed - they were constantly held down because they were from Canada :no: I am too young to have watched the Duchesnays and the majority of the Russian teams I found to be over the top.
Then of course is the fact that Yuna, Mao and the others today are skating to score points. Balanced and well paced programs are of secondary nature to them in their quest to rack up points.
My conclusion is that Michelle's place in skating history is very secure. Girls can't compete at 14 anymore and their senior careers will be much shorter.
Because of this and how they are forced to skate under CoP I doubt if another skater will come along anytime soon to challenge Michelle's "body of work."
That makes me a little sad.
I agree with the "body of work" statement and find it a strong condemnation of CoP scoring. In evaluating skaters the era's and rules they competed under must be considered.
ITA.
I love Michelle (and it's paining me to admit this) but Tara skated her LP lights-out that night. Maybe Michelle should've won if she skated in Nagano like she did at Nationals that year, but...well, she didn't.
evengeline said:*whole post*
I completely disagree. Michelle's body of work is a testament to her great talent as a skater, not a strong condemnation of CoP scoring. I think you are forgetting the fact that Michelle Kwan's body of work (and career length) was more of the exception than the rule under 6.0--there were plenty of short careers under 6.0 (Oksana Baiul, Tara Lipinski, etc), just as there were plenty of boring skaters under 6.0. I would even argue that not allowing skaters to compete at 14 is good for the sport artistically--it allows the skaters to find time to grow up, mature as skaters and makes it less likely for the meteoric rise of flash-in-the-pan jumping beans who win everything at 14 and have their jumps disappear just as they develop a style of their own.
I also think that you forget that even in 6.0, skaters design programs to rack up points (however indirectly)--how else can you explain the front-loading of jumps that is found both in 6.0 and CoP? Under every system, skaters will do what gets them more points with the judges.
It's equally possible to do an artistic skate under CoP as it is to do a dull skate under 6.0. In the end, skaters who have artistry have it under any system/era, skaters who don't, do not. John Curry, Toller Cranson and Janet Lynn are known for their beautiful programs even though they had to skate in the era of figures. Skating under CoP hasn't stopped Jeremy Abbott or Stephane Lambiel from having beautiful, well-constructed programs.
And who says Yu-Na won't be known for her body of work? El Tango de Roxanne, Danse Macabre, the Lark Ascending, her Gershwin LP this season are all wonderful programs. Just because Yu-Na excels in SPs doesn't mean that they shouldn't count. SPs are programs too.
I also mentioned raising the age limit. I neither agreed or disagreed about that but wanted to point out that Michelle had an advantage appearing in her 1st Worlds at age 14 and placing 4th. It is not too much of a stretch to think it may have helped Michelle greatly the following season - 1996 - when she edged out Lulu in a very close decision for the WC.
Actually, Kwan appeared at her 1st Worlds at age 13 and placed 8th. So she had two years of Worlds experience by the time she first won the title.
I also know that if Michelle was skating now her programs would be designed more like Yuna's - with the point of milking as many points out of the CoP as possible. If Michelle didn't do that she simply would not win.
I think most here agree that many of Michelle's programs were beautiful.
Do we think Yuna and Mao's programs are more beautiful?
Has Lori Nichol lost her touch and become incapable of creating choreo today that was as nice as what she did for Michelle? I think the answer is that Lori is creating CoP choreo as opposed to 6.0 choreo and skaters are struggling mightily to master it.
If Yuna retires after this season I don't know anyone but you and Yuna's most loyal fans who would say her body of work is greater than Michelles'.
Actually, Kwan appeared at her 1st Worlds at age 13 and placed 8th. So she had two years of Worlds experience by the time she first won the title.
The rest of your points still stand.
In fact, wasn't that the year that Frank Caroll wanted to keep Michelle in juniors one more year, but Michelle fibbed to her father that Frank said it was OK to go and take the senior test?
RE: your last sentence
Oh no you didn't! I like Yu-Na, but I haven't yet traded my closet-Kwaniac credentials for Yu-Nabot ones. Anyways, I never said (and probably will never say) that Yu-Na's body of work is greater than Michelle's, I was just responding to your previous comment that "Yuna is going to be remembered for her record breaking point totals and possibly a few SP's and not her "body of work."' Yu-Na is certainly capable of being known for her body of work, after all.
I'm not going to beat the Age Limit dead horse (as there's another thread for that) but I concede your point about the effect of figures on free skating programs--I suppose that's why someone like John Curry (IIRC) was the rarest of creatures: someone who was talented at both free skating and figures. I only wish the same could be said for Toller and Janet.
Erm, as for your question about whether Yu-Na's and Mao's programs are more beautiful than Michelle's.....I prefer Michelle's, but you have to admit that the answer to that is completely subjective. But I prefer Michelle's programs not because of the fact that they are 6.0 programs, but because I believe Michelle was probably the ultimate vessel for Lori Nichol's choreography. I don't think Lori has lost her touch/CoP has prevented her from creating good choreography. It's just that some choreographers jive extremely well with certain skaters--it's like how Tarasova was wonderful for Yagudin but seems to be terrible for Mao. Lori Nichol and Michelle Kwan (and I guess you can throw Frank Carroll in here too) were a perfect combination of talent and artistic vision that probably cannot be entirely replicated under 6.0 or CoP because, well, there is only one Michelle Kwan.
Does this make sense?
Quoting myself from elsewhere:
2) Michelle Kwan has the largest body of very good-excellent programs.
The fact that I can remember glimpses of Michelle here and there is a compliment, not a put-down, in case anyone was wondering. I cannot remember almost any programs or "frozen moments" by other skaters who I liked (Kristi, Midori are two examples); I can also recall some Sasha moments, and Alexei Yagudin moments (and his "Winter" is burned into my memory like YuNa's Tango).