What are "good" skating skills?

[DizzyFrenchie]

??? this is Patrick's Chopin is a masterpiece of choreography and interpretation. Chopin's music can be played differently by different pianists... some only see the shallow virtuosity of it.. because of the flourishes... others do it justice and make the piano sing at all times. Patrick's skating is very lyrical in his Chopin program and to me, shows he understands the music. His 4CC performance remains the ultimate interpretation by a figure skater of Chopin in my opinion. His skating is all about the music and in this case, it's not a flaw... It's the old concept of " less is more" ... and it's not like he is doing nothing !
I won't get into a debate about other skaters, but I guess this thread is very relevant because some people seem to confuse skating skills, a deep level of interpretation and performance versus showmanship. Patrick can be a showman (in galas for instance) but understood how to skate to the pieces that were put together for his Chopin. Also, the pieces were well "glued" together and created a real Chopin experience. It's not always the case in recent Chopin programs.... You have heard me loud and clear about this in the past, so I will just stick to the topic. I have seen a bunch of skaters live and Patrick can generate speed and flow with only a couple strokes like no others.. It is actually extremely difficult to skate like this and this is why some skaters will chose to include more small turns and steps and overload the programs with transitions. While they do this, it camouflages that lack of ease and power obtained by really good technique. It is actually them who are, in my opinion, taking advantage of the judging system.

I do agree that Patrick Chan's Chopin is a masterpiece of choreography and interpretation! (Only the cuts exasperate me but I'm so demanding when it's Chopin. I'm sorry, I stick to it.) I'm sorry if my wording let you think anything different. I can tell you that coming from me it's a huge compliment! He chose pieces well played (to the piano! I positively hate any orchestration of Chopin's pieces for piano, including the ballet Chopiniana; but piano pieces need more precision in... skating skills), with a constant tempo, which is not how Chopin would play them, but in my opinion they're truer to Chopin than some delirious interpretations (now rare, fortunately), a great part of Chopin's work being on counterpoint which must be respected, in particular.
I was purely speaking of the level of skating skills, not of interpretation. With his choice of pianistic interpretation in even rhythms, Patrick Chan gave himself the means of delivering a beautiful, coherent interpretation, expression of the music, which his exceptional skating skills allowed him, and I agree that extremely few other skaters may be, or would have been able of it. Plus, he's a rather reserved skater in his interpretations, another reason to choose even rhythms. Both are a joy to watch.
What I mean, is that exceptional as they are, his skating skills (not any lack of musicality) would not allowed him to interpret a piece played "as Chopin would have played", because he wouldn't have been able to make his skates follow the rhythm alterations. Jeffrey Buttle's choreography was indeed so extremely demanding, even for Yuzuru Hanyu (who didn't have as much smoothness and precision as Patrick Chan in 2014), that he really skated it completely only from 2017. This is not a program overloaded with transitions, this is a perfect program. Had there been too many transitions for this program, by the way, if this is what you're suggesting, this would have justified a higher Transitions score, but a lower Interpretation score, and Yuzuru Hanyu knew that he couldn't expect any leniency from the judges, so what are you speaking about? He was able to express the fire in the music. Able not only in musicality, but also in skating skills.

 

[4everchan]

Hey, 4everchan, are you really trying to argue for Patrick's alleged superiority by discrediting this guy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krystian_Zimerman
just because he played for Yuzuru? He's one of the most accomplished and respected Chopin interpreters in the world, one of the best in his generation, widely believed to have a "feel" and "touch" for the true spirit of Chopin. His countryman, by the way
This thread has gone wild and crazy long time ago but, I mean, really?

Zimerman is my favourite pianist for Chopin. I am not talking about his playing at all. What is going on here? If Zimerman had any say in Hanyu's ballade program, he would have included the main theme of the piece

 

[Magill]

Zimerman is my favourite pianist for Chopin. I am not talking about his playing at all. What is going on here?

So what were you actually talking about referring to what I bolded? It sounded like you were comparing the music pieces Yuzuru and Patrick skated to. No?
Are we now discussing Zimerman and his poor choices? Cause you know, unlike some other poster I do not think he would play anything he would not agree with. He's too big a name, you know. And he's not some late night bistro pianist playing what they tell him to play for a dime or two

 

[4everchan]

So what were you actually talking about referring to what I bolded? It sounded like you were comparing the music Yuzuru and Patrick skated to. No?

I had not brought up Hanyu. I was discussing Patrick's Chopin interpretation which I personally find flawless. Other people are free to have different opinion. I was linking this to the topic on skating skills because to me, the power and flow Patrick demonstrates is perfect for the two faster section of his program while the lyricism of the prelude is perfectly shown with Patrick's beautiful skating. As a pianist myself, I am very picky when skaters choose pieces i have performed hundreds of times... it's hard not to be. I simply praised Patrick's program.

Also, I don't think who is playing, Zimerman or others, has anything to do with skating skills

 

[4everchan]

So what were you actually talking about referring to what I bolded? It sounded like you were comparing the music pieces Yuzuru and Patrick skated to. No?
Are we now discussing Zimerman and his poor choices? Cause you know, unlike some other poster I do not think he would play anything he would not agree with. He's too big a name, you know. And he's not some late night bistro pianist playing what they tell him to play for a dime or two

You have me very confused. Sorry for the off-topic but when Buttle and co did the Chopin program for Hanyu, they used a recording already available of Zimerman and cut it and glued it back together. I have never heard anything though, I admit I do not follow Hanyu as much as some of you do, that there was a collaboration between the two, to establish tempos or anything like that

As a matter of fact, Kotaro Fukuma is the pianist listed for the Ballade when Yuzuru did shows with live musicians. In any case, moving on. Seeing Zimerman live is one of the greatest experience just like seeing Patrick Chan live

I am done with this.. Don't miss me too much and sorry for the

 

[Magill]

I had not brought up Hanyu. I was discussing Patrick's Chopin interpretation which I personally find flawless. Other people are free to have different opinion. I was linking this to the topic on skating skills because to me, the power and flow Patrick demonstrates is perfect for the two faster section of his program while the lyricism of the prelude is perfectly shown with Patrick's beautiful skating. As a pianist myself, I am very picky when skaters choose pieces i have performed hundreds of times... it's hard not to be. I simply praised Patrick's program.

Also, I don't think who is playing, Zimerman or others, has anything to do with skating skills

No, it doesn't. Hard not to agree. But I am under the impression that it was you who brought it up into the discussion of skating skills and confused me, you know
I prefer Yuzu's version, but it is also true that I do love the wild side of Chopin which he seems to have impersonated so well (yes, I will always choose Yuzuru just like you will always choose Patrick but I hope it does not mean we now need to be mean to each other

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I won't answer to the other parts of this discussion, because for me it's just silly to compare Patrick and Yuzuru - that's like comparing apples and oranges (AND, frankly I don't have the knowledge) - but because as someone who plays the piano herself and knows a few professional pianists.
Krystian Zimerman very likely didn't play Ballade the way he does because he thought Yuzuru Hanyu could pull it of, but because he was instructed to do so. Do you really think pianists play commissioned adaptions the way they feel to?
He likely got a reference of the parts and the required tempo.

Also, rubato isn't really a specific tempo and neither a permanent change, but more a term for the progression of a piece to express rythmic freedom by a slight change to the tempo (eg. shortening a few notes and then lengthening them more than normaly for a few bars).

Thank you for wording things better than me (particularly the definition of rubato; I was too much in the skating aspect of following it), and noticing where I'm unclear.
From the little we know, Krystian Zimerman approached Yuzuru Hanyu (who had skated beautifully to Scriabin's Etude in D Minor, the other composer whose piano works it should be forbidden to orchestrate) and asked him if he would like him to play something for his skates. Yuzuru Hanyu chose Chopin's Ballade n°1. Then I suppose that there must have been discussions between the two as to his skating requirements, but it's unlikely that the piece could allow much leeway, without betraying the author. One adaptation he did, because he has spoken a lot (and this reflects decades of intensive intelligent hardwork on existing interpretations) of the importance of considering the environment where a music will be played, is to have notes sounding thicker, probably thanks to a special réglage (adjusting? It's not exactly tuning, and I don't know the word in English; it's a preparation of tuning), giving more harmonics to each note? in order to absorb as much as possible of the unavoidable (and wild) echoes in an ice rink. He's Krystian Zimerman and he wouldn't have played it with an even rhythm. Had he thought that Yuzuru Hanyu didn't have the technical means of overcoming this difficulty, he would have advised another composer. Furthermore, he speaks Japanese and has a second home in Tokyo, he could have explained it. This is what I meant.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Single skaters wearing different skates, particularly the blades, must also affect what they can do easily, or what they can do at all? As separate moves, and as clusters?

Singles blades with extra back actuslly make a lot of stuff easier. Some stuff (that depend on direct toe-to-heel positioning are harder, but vast majority of turns are equal or lower difficulty on singles blades). That being said, it's easier to scratch on blades with larger toepicks.

Ice dance blades are shorter to avoid partners tripping each other up (and also makes some stuff like outside mohawks, blues choktaw to name a few examples). The lack of toepick reduces chance of scratching and allows pointing the toe off a push without toepushing (although probably could do this with free blades, I can't really confirm?)

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

You have me very confused. Sorry for the off-topic but when Buttle and co did the Chopin program for Hanyu, they used a recording already available of Zimerman and cut it and glued it back together. I have never heard anything though, I admit I do not follow Hanyu as much as some of you do, that there was a collaboration between the two, to establish tempos or anything like that

As a matter of fact, Kotaro Fukuma is the pianist listed for the Ballade when Yuzuru did shows with live musicians. In any case, moving on. Seeing Zimerman live is one of the greatest experience just like seeing Patrick Chan live

I am done with this.. Don't miss me too much and sorry for the

Do you mean that they had prepared the program before Krystian Zimerman would propose Yuzuru Hanyu to play something for him? Or that after this proposal and its acceptation, Krystian Zimerman told them the cut it would be, and they started imagining the program with such a sketch?

We are indeed now rather far away from skating skills!

 

[Magill]

Do you mean that they had prepared the program before Krystian Zimerman would propose Yuzuru Hanyu to play something for him? Or that after this proposal and its acceptation, Krystian Zimerman told them the cut it would be, and they started imagining the program with such a sketch?

We are indeed now rather far away from skating skills!

One good thing that came out from this thread so far is that we have unexpectedly managed to find out that although we prefer different skaters and we cherish their skating skills more than some others, many of us do love Chopin all the same which is a relief we can fall back on when threads get tough and entangled with confusion
Thank you, Frederick!!!

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

One good thing that came out from this thread so far is that we have unexpectedly managed to find out that although we prefer different skaters and we cherish their skating skills more than some others, many of us do love Chopin all the same which is a relief we can fall back on when threads get tough and entangled with confusion
Thank you, Frederick!!!

I see a possible explanation to this: Chopin's admiration for, and understanding of Bach works in all their rigour and potential, which are a core to his work (although at first, one perceive more the passion, the melodic wealth...) has lots to do with the rigour needed in building skating skills (to which Yuzuru Hanyu was retive as a child and a young teenager) which when mastered at the highest level, allows a much greater freedom of interpretation. I believe that most Single skaters do this work as a chore, avoiding to think of them when performing exercises, while skaters who achieve(d) an exceptional mastery of skating skills have all performed their exercises thoughtfully and intelligently, thinking about their aim, and how to optimise the exercises for a better result, whether they like it or not, because they love skating so much.

 

[4everchan]

One good thing that came out from this thread so far is that we have unexpectedly managed to find out that although we prefer different skaters and we cherish their skating skills more than some others, many of us do love Chopin all the same which is a relief we can fall back on when threads get tough and entangled with confusion
Thank you, Frederick!!!

Fryderyk !!!!

 

[Magill]

Fryderyk !!!!

Oh, I do know! I was not sure if anyone here knows beside me. Thank you, that was nice!
Fryderyk Franciszek, btw

 

[4everchan]

Do you mean that they had prepared the program before Krystian Zimerman would propose Yuzuru Hanyu to play something for him? Or that after this proposal and its acceptation, Krystian Zimerman told them the cut it would be, and they started imagining the program with such a sketch?

We are indeed now rather far away from skating skills!

I am saying that Zimerman's recording was definitely already available and that though it is possible they had a chat about it, the choreographer probably used the already made recording and cut it down so that a 9 minute piece fits into the SP requirements. This is what my hypothesis is.

 

[Friday]

So what were you actually talking about referring to what I bolded? It sounded like you were comparing the music pieces Yuzuru and Patrick skated to. No?
Are we now discussing Zimerman and his poor choices? Cause you know, unlike some other poster I do not think he would play anything he would not agree with. He's too big a name, you know. And he's not some late night bistro pianist playing what they tell him to play for a dime or two

Are you taking about me?
I never said that he played something he did not agree with, I just said that if someone is asked to do a commission, and choose to do so, they would normally consult with the commissioner.
Do you really think Zimerman was like: 'okay, I'm going to play x cause I think skater y, who I probably didn't even know existed, can pull it of'?

I just said that he likely got parts that should be included and a possible tempo frame. And then he experimented and made different recordings...

 

[Friday]

Thank you for wording things better than me (particularly the definition of rubato; I was too much in the skating aspect of following it), and noticing where I'm unclear.
From the little we know, Krystian Zimerman approached Yuzuru Hanyu (who had skated beautifully to Scriabin's Etude in D Minor, the other composer whose piano works it should be forbidden to orchestrate) and asked him if he would like him to play something for his skates. Yuzuru Hanyu chose Chopin's Ballade n°1. Then I suppose that there must have been discussions between the two as to his skating requirements, but it's unlikely that the piece could allow much leeway, without betraying the author. One adaptation he did, because he has spoken a lot (and this reflects decades of intensive intelligent hardwork on existing interpretations) of the importance of considering the environment where a music will be played, is to have notes sounding thicker, probably thanks to a special réglage (adjusting? It's not exactly tuning, and I don't know the word in English; it's a preparation of tuning), giving more harmonics to each note? in order to absorb as much as possible of the unavoidable (and wild) echoes in an ice rink. He's Krystian Zimerman and he wouldn't have played it with an even rhythm. Had he thought that Yuzuru Hanyu didn't have the technical means of overcoming this difficulty, he would have advised another composer. Furthermore, he speaks Japanese and has a second home in Tokyo, he could have explained it. This is what I meant.

He's Krystian Zimerman and he wouldn't have played it with an even rhythm.

From what I still remember of my music history stuff (not much lol), Chopin is one of the most famous pianist regarding rubato. While it was used before him of others, it became famous with him?

And yes, we are very far from skating skills right now!

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Is this really about Chan vs. Hanyu now?
They are both amazing! skaters with amazing skating skills, why do we need to put the other one down?
They are definitely different from each other.
In general the concept of "great skating skills" in North America and especially in Canada I think focusses very much on stroking, gliding and soft knees, while in other parts of the world fast steps, sudden cuts and transitions are more appreciated.
While I think that it should be better defined how to rate these skills in detail there is a level that is just so high, I don't see a necessity to get into fan wars over who is better when the skaters in question were able to reach this level. I call it god-tier. For me that's 9.50 upwards, depending on the day.

The section that is bolded. It's actually supposed to and used to be about that and so much more in the whole skating world (didn't matter where skater was from). But ISU has allowed slacking off of having to have many to all of those things to be the best of the best and well...here we are. There are a few that have it, but it's rare now.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Single skaters wearing different skates, particularly the blades, must also affect what they can do easily, or what they can do at all? As separate moves, and as clusters?

Not all. There are singles skaters who can skate like ice dancers on singles blades.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I am saying that Zimerman's recording was definitely already available and that though it is possible they had a chat about it, the choreographer probably used the already made recording and cut it down so that a 9 minute piece fits into the SP requirements. This is what my hypothesis is.

I'm sure it wasn't. I have the CD, I know he released VHS for Japan in the 1980s but it's available on Youtube and it's really different. Furthermore, it does sound purpose-played for a rink (which Shinya Kiyozuka, who adapted and played St-Saëns' Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso for Yuzuru Hanyu, this indeed as a command from Yuzuru Hanyu, and the pianist was so intimidated, probably as much from succeeding to Krystian Zimerman than from playing for Yuzuru Hanyu; didn't manage, the notes are normal, not "thicker", but Krystian Zimerman is known to be a sort of magician for adjusting a piano, maybe it's not the place to develop). And, he would never allow anyone to cut a play of his! If the piece was to be cut, it has to be wholly thought by himself and played at once. He wouldn't allow a piece played for a type of recording and to be released in a type of CD/DVD and listened to in a living room with a good sound system, to be played in a skating rink! It's not the same at all, and his interpretation is not the same! I know it too well: he doesn't allow a release in CD of the four Mozart Sonatas he played four decades ago, I worn my tapes so much that they were torn and I'd like so much to have them back in a good quality. He says (about ancient interprets) that digitalising an interpretation made for analogical recording and play, is like undressing the Gioconda and discovering that she hasn't taken a bath. He's as perfectionist as Yuzuru Hanyu and I suppose that he knew the genius and the nerd at once.

@ Friday, he did contact Yuzuru Hanyu and propose him to play something for a skate, not the other way round. Yuzuru Hanyu and his would never have dared! How could they have? And I believe it was unprecedented from Krystian Zimerman, to play for any non-musician performer!
As to tempo rubato, in this wording and meaning it's chiefly Chopin, but contemporary composers had similar concept with other words:

Tempo rubato - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Minz]

This video has a few moments in which you can see some of the differences in ice dance and singles elements as Lloyd was an ice dancer, and Katya is of course, a singles skater. It's quite a fun video as well.

We Skate Yuzuru Hanyu's Step Sequence and Break it down!

Like our videos? Check out our Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/icecoachonline for more content!In this video, I am joined by world-ranked senior skater Ek...

youtu.be