What did Sotnikova do wrong? | Page 7 | Golden Skate

What did Sotnikova do wrong?

Nater

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
I didn't know that Lysacek put some of his jumps into the second half to garner more points, so thanks for pointing this out. However, I still find it hard to agree with the belief that Sotnikova strategized well and collected more points under CoP. In the end there was only 2.94 difference in her and Kim's BV of SP and LP combined, and only 1.44 in jumps. Usually Kim would have crushed this with the GOEs and PCS she gets, but this time Sotnikova was suddenly getting monstrously inflated GOEs which even exceeded Kim's and almost the same PCS as hers. Now I'm not even sure what COP friendly strategy it was that Sotnikova capitalized on, but I don't think it was enough to explain the sudden boost she got in those scores. Did she gain significant competitiveness in her BV by changing her jump placements? or did she raise her GOEs by adding more transitions in and out of those jumping passes, like Kim did in Vancouver? Though I agree with you that these scores can easily be manipulated by the technical panel and judges, how Sotnikova worked those points with her own capacity is just beyond me.

Kim doesn't deserve a lot of the GOE that she has historically gotten on her jumps, and especially not on her spins or spirals.

Kim does 6 crossovers into her opening combo, and after the crossovers she does a back edge pull and then some back cross strokes. That's all. There is literally no transitions/clear steps going in and out of that combo, no delay in rotations, no variation in position (Rip Lutz, Tano Lutz). That combo should get +2 GOE Max. The fact that she skates around in predominately one direction doing crossovers for a fair bit of the program should impact her TR and SS PCS scores. A less-reputable skater who skated Kim's program exactly as she skated it would struggle to break 8s for SS and TR with the way that program is structured, and getting 6 Bullets for a +3 on that combo clearly shows the judges are frequently willing to forego the criteria and simply smash "+3" simply because she did a decent combination. There are clear criteria for awarding GOE to jumps, and a lot of her jumps simply aren't meeting enough of the criteria to get a +3 yet the judges have continued to throw them at her... There is no explanation for this other than: Reputation.

Adelina does 2-3 crossovers and transitions/choreo straight into her opening 3-3, with basically no hesitation.

On Kim's triple flip, she does some crossovers, and then a Mohawk (one of the easiest transitions), steps forwards and glides into a hugely telegraphed triple flip. Again, it's simply criminal to give that +3 GOE if you're going by the criteria. Kim also telegraphs the crap out of her 3F in the SP, which makes me wonder why she gets such high GOE when she has no clear steps directly preceeding the jump, which the requirements call for...

Adelina does Mohawk-Choctaw-Counter straight into her triple flip with barely any hesitation. Before going into it, she skates (with transitions and choreo) in both directions. She also does choreo out of the jump, which counts as a transition.

That's how Sotnikova's program works the system - you can see this throughout the program. Look at the skating into, out of, and between the elements. Kim's GOEs have historically been inflated, but people never really questioned it because she's always stood up on her programs or had such huge leads going into the FS that it didn't even matter - that, or her competitors faltered. Additionally, she's a veteran and she's been getting this type of PCS for a while and she has been smart about only showing up when she was ready to the few major competitions she's competed in in the past few years, so there is not much variation in her performances... Her PCS skyrocketed quite a bit leading up to Vancouver and ever since then the judges have been unwilling to score her programs based on how they were structured and skated, because they simply carried forward the status quo. Her program from 2013 Worlds was magical, but her protocol was a joke.

These programs were not on the same level as her 2013 or 2010 programs. There is a clear difference between even her 2009 Worlds FS and this one. She had two times as many transitions in that program, way more choreo and expression. It isn't even comparable. These programs were "easy skates" for Yuna Kim, and she probably needed them to be easy because she wasn't competing that much and probably does not have the same level of stamina that she had back then.

These YNK programs were cleverly designed to coast to an easy gold on her reputation with as little technical content as possible to win and some of the easiest in-between skating of the competition in the top 12-14 skaters. They were designed to maximize her chances of going clean and bank on her reputation.

The question should not be why Sotnikova is suddenly getting massive PCS.

The question should be why skaters with well-balanced IJS programs are struggling to get high PCS while veterans that take coffee breaks or speed skate through their programs are awarded ridiculous marks. This has always been a problem with the "second mark" in skating. In 6.0 as well as in IJS, and in both cases the only way for an upstart skater to win was for the judges to suddenly inflate their second mark past what they were "allowed" to obtain previous to give them the win.

People on this thread are seriously expecting Sotnikova to get PCS at the level of Miki Ando when she won her last world title, which is a laughing stock.
 

volk

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Kim doesn't deserve a lot of the GOE that she has historically gotten on her jumps, and especially not on her spins or spirals.

Kim does 6 crossovers into her opening combo, and after the crossovers she does a back edge pull and then some back cross strokes. That's all. There is literally no transitions/clear steps going in and out of that combo, no delay in rotations, no variation in position (Rip Lutz, Tano Lutz). That combo should get +2 GOE Max. The fact that she skates around in predominately one direction doing crossovers for a fair bit of the program should impact her TR and SS PCS scores. A less-reputable skater who skated Kim's program exactly as she skated it would struggle to break 8s for SS and TR with the way that program is structured, and getting 6 Bullets for a +3 on that combo clearly shows the judges are frequently willing to forego the criteria and simply smash "+3" simply because she did a decent combination. There are clear criteria for awarding GOE to jumps, and a lot of her jumps simply aren't meeting enough of the criteria to get a +3 yet the judges have continued to throw them at her... There is no explanation for this other than: Reputation.

Adelina does 2-3 crossovers and transitions/choreo straight into her opening 3-3, with basically no hesitation.

On Kim's triple flip, she does some crossovers, and then a Mohawk (one of the easiest transitions), steps forwards and glides into a hugely telegraphed triple flip. Again, it's simply criminal to give that +3 GOE if you're going by the criteria. Kim also telegraphs the crap out of her 3F in the SP, which makes me wonder why she gets such high GOE when she has no clear steps directly preceeding the jump, which the requirements call for...

Adelina does Mohawk-Choctaw-Counter straight into her triple flip with barely any hesitation. Before going into it, she skates (with transitions and choreo) in both directions. She also does choreo out of the jump, which counts as a transition.

That's how Sotnikova's program works the system - you can see this throughout the program. Look at the skating into, out of, and between the elements. Kim's GOEs have historically been inflated, but people never really questioned it because she's always stood up on her programs or had such huge leads going into the FS that it didn't even matter - that, or her competitors faltered. Additionally, she's a veteran and she's been getting this type of PCS for a while and she has been smart about only showing up when she was ready to the few major competitions she's competed in in the past few years, so there is not much variation in her performances... Her PCS skyrocketed quite a bit leading up to Vancouver and ever since then the judges have been unwilling to score her programs based on how they were structured and skated, because they simply carried forward the status quo. Her program from 2013 Worlds was magical, but her protocol was a joke.

These programs were not on the same level as her 2013 or 2010 programs. There is a clear difference between even her 2009 Worlds FS and this one. She had two times as many transitions in that program, way more choreo and expression. It isn't even comparable. These programs were "easy skates" for Yuna Kim, and she probably needed them to be easy because she wasn't competing that much and probably does not have the same level of stamina that she had back then.

These YNK programs were cleverly designed to coast to an easy gold on her reputation with as little technical content as possible to win and some of the easiest in-between skating of the competition in the top 12-14 skaters. They were designed to maximize her chances of going clean and bank on her reputation.

The question should not be why Sotnikova is suddenly getting massive PCS.

The question should be why skaters with well-balanced IJS programs are struggling to get high PCS while veterans that take coffee breaks or speed skate through their programs are awarded ridiculous marks. This has always been a problem with the "second mark" in skating. In 6.0 as well as in IJS, and in both cases the only way for an upstart skater to win was for the judges to suddenly inflate their second mark past what they were "allowed" to obtain previous to give them the win.

People on this thread are seriously expecting Sotnikova to get PCS at the level of Miki Ando when she won her last world title, which is a laughing stock.

Interesting analysis. Thanks for posting.
 

Nater

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
^This.

One place to start investigating would be to look at several years worth of Cup of Russia scores, specifically for Russian skaters, in relation to both other GP scores and other nation's participants. This trend of home cooked scoring boosts is nothing new in Russia.

Skate America and Skate Canada are no different for American or Canadian Skaters. NHK is usually very good to Japanese Skaters.

There's a reason why you only tend to see one nation's top contenders at their own Grand Prix, unless the competitors have a great reputation, etc.

Davis and White would not have wanted to compete at Skate Canada last year, same for Virtue and Moir at Skate America.

Russia send Radionova to Skate America and saved an assignment for both Lipnitskaya and Sotnikova for Rostelecom... Ashley Wagner went to TEB and Skate America. France has no guns in the race for Ladies FS. She would not have wanted to go to Rostelecom or even NHK.

I'm not sure why Cup or Russia scoring is a bit deal, or Grand Prix scoring where a ton of top contenders are absent period... Even GP Final is a bit... Dubious to use as a basis for establishing scoring precedent.

TL;DR: Most Nations send their top skaters to their own Grand Prix for their one of their assignment, and usually try to find the most neutral assignments outside of that to send them so that they will be scored well and not ripped off compared to home skaters.

This is true in Skating. It's also true in other judged sports like Gymnastics. A few times USSR/Russia went years without sending gymnasts to American Cup because the US Gymnasts got scored quite lenient there and their gymnasts were scored ridiculously low. One year Vanessa Atler was scoring 9.8+ on UB at American Cup, which was a laughing stock.
 

Figure 8's

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
^This.

One place to start investigating would be to look at several years worth of Cup of Russia scores, specifically for Russian skaters, in relation to both other GP scores and other nation's participants. This trend of home cooked scoring boosts is nothing new in Russia.
Nor is it new in any other country.
 

Nater

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Nor is it new in any other country.

True. Fact is, scoring precedent cannot be set from a Grand Prix because that happens at all home Grand Prix events. The only GP event that is largely neutral is Trophee Eric Bompard, and that's why the US has sent Ashley Wagner there two years in a row (along with ... yep ... Skate America).

Maybe the GP Final is usable.

Europeans is usable. 4CC would be usable but a lot of top skaters skip that competition as they do not take it nearly as serious as Europeans take Euros. There is Worlds and Olympics outside of that.

You cannot set scoring precedent form a competition as small as a GP event because the judges often use scoring to simply place skaters (esp. on the PCS side) and with such a small field things simply aren't as realistic.
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
These YNK programs were cleverly designed to coast to an easy gold on her reputation with as little technical content as possible to win and some of the easiest in-between skating of the competition in the top 12-14 skaters. They were designed to maximize her chances of going clean and bank on her reputation.

You know, you need to stop with disgusting fabricated assumptions like the above. You have no proof, no evidence whatsoever, and you will never have proof that these programs were "cleverly designed to cost to an easy gold on her reputation with as little technical content as possible to win." If they wanted to make it as easy as possible, Yu-na would've swapped out her 3Lz/3T for a second-half 2A/3T instead, which would make an INCREASE in base value even though the technical content became easier. Yu-Na never said Olympic gold was her goal, so she couldn't possibly have planned for an easy gold.

Adelina surely will win some competitions in the future, and she will surely lose some. One thing's for sure, though--she has a ways to go to matching a fraction of Yu-Na's hard-earned accomplishments. Yu-Na herself was lowballed in PCS when she first came on the senior scene when competing against seniors with more "reputation", but she overcame that to medal at every GP and win her first GP Final. Adelina has yet to even win a single GP, and it's not because she was lowballed in PCS compared to others. Heck, Anna Pogorilaya has won a GP, but Adelina has not. That says a lot.

It's easy to tear down the veterans at the end of their career because we've seen them skate for 5, 6, 7 years on the senior international level, and celebrate the young skaters who are fresh and new. But what goes around comes around.

Adelina is now a veteran and the Olympic champion, and everyone will be gunning for her. Let's see how she deals with having a target taped to her back, and everyone comparing her to younger, fresher skaters with bouncy jumps and lots of energy. Let's see what happens as she gets older, and deals with injuries, and the constant pressure of being expected to win. It will be interesting what her programs/skating will look like in 3-4 years compared to now.
 

Nater

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
You know, you need to stop with disgusting fabricated assumptions like the above. You have no proof, no evidence whatsoever, and you will never have proof that these programs were "cleverly designed to cost to an easy gold on her reputation with as little technical content as possible to win." If they wanted to make it as easy as possible, Yu-na would've swapped out her 3Lz/3T for a second-half 2A/3T instead, which would make an INCREASE in base value even though the technical content became easier. Yu-Na never said Olympic gold was her goal, so she couldn't possibly have planned for an easy gold.

Adelina surely will win some competitions in the future, and she will surely lose some. One thing's for sure, though--she has a ways to go to matching a fraction of Yu-Na's hard-earned accomplishments. Yu-Na herself was lowballed in PCS when she first came on the senior scene when competing against seniors with more "reputation", but she overcame that to medal at every GP and win her first GP Final. Adelina has yet to even win a single GP, and it's not because she was lowballed in PCS compared to others. Heck, Anna Pogorilaya has won a GP, but Adelina has not. That says a lot.

It's easy to tear down the veterans at the end of their career because we've seen them skate for 5, 6, 7 years on the senior international level, and celebrate the young skaters who are fresh and new. But what goes around comes around.

Adelina is now a veteran and the Olympic champion, and everyone will be gunning for her. Let's see how she deals with having a target taped to her back, and everyone comparing her to younger, fresher skaters with bouncy jumps and lots of energy. Let's see what happens as she gets older, and deals with injuries, and the constant pressure of being expected to win. It will be interesting what her programs/skating will look like in 3-4 years compared to now.

No, you don't celebrate new skaters.

You hold them down and use ******** like "maturity" as a reason to justify the judges lowballing their PCS scores so that your beloved "veterans" can continue to wrack up titles with much simpler and less risky programs while speed skating around in between jumps doing nothing but looking bored.

Of course that's what she said. The same way other skaters said they only wanted a "Top Ten" finish or something else ridiculous. Skaters are usually quite PC and skaters like YNK, Costner, Asada, etc. know how to work the media.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Liewise, Yuna Kim's only fault was not being Russian. I have no doubt she would have won had seen been Russian.

Said state of affairs in figure skating competitions.

Listen, Yuna was nothing in Sochi. NOTHING! If you took a different girl with a different name and gave her EXACTLY the same performance as Yuna did, she would not make the top five. Yuna got silver on REPUTATION ONLY. With relatively easier technical program, no choreography, no energy and no connection, she would be maybe 6th or 7th.
 

mwk81

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
:rolleye::rolleye::rolleye:
Listen, Yuna was nothing in Sochi. NOTHING! If you took a different girl with a different name and gave her EXACTLY the same performance as Yuna did, she would not make the top five. Yuna got silver on REPUTATION ONLY. With relatively easier technical program, no choreography, no energy and no connection, she would be maybe 6th or 7th.

:disapp: :rolleye:
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Hey guys, insulting Yuna doesn't make Yuna look bad. Just saying.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Listen, Yuna was nothing in Sochi. NOTHING! If you took a different girl with a different name and gave her EXACTLY the same performance as Yuna did, she would not make the top five. Yuna got silver on REPUTATION ONLY. With relatively easier technical program, no choreography, no energy and no connection, she would be maybe 6th or 7th.

Why are you so angry? Your girl won. Good for her. :clap:
 

Nater

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Hey guys, insulting Yuna doesn't make Yuna look bad. Just saying.

The same could be said about any other skater. But her programs were pretty empty/easy and performed in a pedestrian manner.

I don't have an interest in talking about Yuna as a person. She's a great person and probably the most philanthropic figure skater in history. I'm talking about her skating and her performances.

She (EDIT: Her Skating) is not immune to criticism, and certainly isn't perfect.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
The same could be said about any other skater. But her programs were pretty empty/easy and performed in a pedestrian manner.

I don't have an interest in talking about Yuna as a person. She's a great person and probably the most philanthropic figure skater in history. I'm talking about her skating and her performances.

She (EDIT: Her Skating) is not immune to criticism, and certainly isn't perfect.

Sure her skating is open for criticism, but making a lot of assumptions about her skating and her motivations isn't cool either.
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
No, you don't celebrate new skaters.

You hold them down and use ******** like "maturity" as a reason to justify the judges lowballing their PCS scores so that your beloved "veterans" can continue to wrack up titles with much simpler and less risky programs while speed skating around in between jumps doing nothing but looking bored.

Last I checked, Adelina WON the Olympics. So why are you complaining that Adelina was held down? She wasn't and hasn't been. She's had 2 seasons as a full senior on the international level. She is a multiple time Russian national champion. She was being heralded in 2010 as one of the Russian superbabies, written about on Goldenskate itself. She represents a powerful skating federation. She had a reputation when she debuted on the senior GP in 2011.

There is no justification whatsoever that Adelina was held down for reasons like lacking "maturity" as you say. Adelina has been held back by NOTHING her own inconsistent record. She did NOT deliver at 2013 Worlds. She skated well-enough for her worlds debut, but she didn't outjump, outskate, or out-perform the veterans on the podium, or even fellow newbies like Kaetlyn Osmond, Zijun Li, and Gracie Gold. She was behind all of them. So yeah, you need to stop parroting that Adelina or other newbies have been unfairly held down. Adelina couldn't even beat the newbies at 2013 Worlds (and she got the highest PCS than those newbies, so again, she was not held down in PCS).

Had Adelina skated more consistently these past 2 seasons, her PCS would've gone up sooner. Simple as that. Adelina has been held back by nothing but her relative inconsistency, not because of those "veterans".
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Why are you so angry? Your girl won. Good for her. :clap:

It's you guys, who is angry. I am trying to celebrate a great skating in Sochi, probably the highest skating level ever with a wonderfully surprising result, but bitter people like you took over this place with your venom, insults and false accusations.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
It's you guys, who is angry. I am trying to celebrate a great skating in Sochi, probably the highest skating level ever with a wonderfully surprising result, but bitter people like you took over this place with your venom, insults and false accusations.

Mathman is angry? Wha? That's news to me....

But then again anyone who enjoys math FOR FUN has to be mad, for real.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
No, you don't celebrate new skaters.

You hold them down and use ******** like "maturity" as a reason to justify the judges lowballing their PCS scores so that your beloved "veterans" can continue to wrack up titles with much simpler and less risky programs while speed skating around in between jumps doing nothing but looking bored.

Of course that's what she said. The same way other skaters said they only wanted a "Top Ten" finish or something else ridiculous. Skaters are usually quite PC and skaters like YNK, Costner, Asada, etc. know how to work the media.


De gustibus non est disputandum
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
De gustibus non est disputandum

God, WA! Why you got to be using Latin to make us all look DUMB. Seriously, WA, you are a piece of work. ;)

(An aside: I took two years of Latin because my teacher said I would do better on the SAT. WHAT A BUNCH OF LIES!!!)
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
heck, I did 4 years of Latin in high school, and four more in college. In fact, the Classics dept. helped fund my pursuit of a completely unrelated major ;) Never tell me that it doesn't pay to take Latin.
 
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