- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
Kim's 3f and 3s were much improved at Worlds. She may have had "issues" with them in the past, but they are both gorgeous jumps for her now.
I try to be impartial and not stir up drama on this board but at this point I have to ask...
Why are you unable to elaborate on Jiggs' question? ("What "overall jump technique quality" exactly is Carolina missing to match Yuna?") When you asked me to explain my views (several times, might I add) I did my best to give you an objective reason as to why I feel Yu-Na and Carolina's jumps are of similar quality...why are you unable to do the same?
So I'd like to second Jiggs' question: In your opinion Venlac, when it comes to each individual jump (not 3-3s b/c we've already established Yu-Na is better at executing those), what overall jump technique quality is Carolina missing to match Yu-Na?
I'm not trying to be mean. I honestly want to know. I was courteous enough to offer my explanations to your questions so I'm just asking you to return the favor.
Why? I asked you to elaborate further and your answer is simply "I can never agree". Please give me an example or a reason as of why you think they should not receive similar GOE and why Carolina's quality is inferior. I would really like to know.
Like I did to explain about 3-3, I will explain that comparison each jumps with video. I don't have idea to explain by another way.
Caro has correct edge, and her technique is felt comfortable. But looks less effortless, there is difference in the speed to approached, , and The most important thing is that her jumps are not comparisonable in height- the most important thing in GOE - with Yuna.
Who have similar height in jumps with Yuna is only Gracie gold. I think
lutz
kostner http://youtu.be/NqYLMnyl8VA?t=2m6s
kim http://youtu.be/GIU7Gsbkghg?t=2m47s
flip
kostner http://youtu.be/NqYLMnyl8VA?t=2m45s
kim http://youtu.be/GIU7Gsbkghg?t=1m26s
2A
kostner http://youtu.be/NqYLMnyl8VA?t=2m30s
kim http://youtu.be/6MfgGsf0cZA?t=1m47s
salchow
kostner http://youtu.be/xHmKOhVe_-s?t=4m1s
kim http://youtu.be/GIU7Gsbkghg?t=1m56s
If we say Caro's jump techinique is good as much as Yuna, then, we can say Ando's jumps are good as much as Yuna. I think Caro's jump technique level is same with Ando. Not as much as Yuna.
height- the most important thing in GOE
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure
Okay, I could agree on several of your points...
HOWEVER...the fact that you brought Miki Ando into this discussion and equated her jumps to Carolina's is enough to let me know that there is zero way to continue this conversation in any kind of rational manner. Comparing the quality of Miki's jumps to Carolina's just shot your credibility as an objective poster squarely in the face. So for that reason I'll echo your sentiments and say let's not argue about it anymore and move on...
what i mean is that judges tend to 'jumps height' as the most important thing in GOE. As you said in the second paragraph.The guidelines regarding GOE do not distinguish between bullets in terms of importance. This is what they are:
That said, I think though that while officially, the bullets are not weighted, I think unofficially, there may be a bit of an extra weight by the judges given to jumps that have both good height and distance versus jumps that may fulfill other bullets but don't have good height or distance. I haven't done a scientific test or anything, that's just a guess. .
I think it would be a very close race b/w Yu-Na and Carolina if both are clean. If Carolina had hit all of her jumps at worlds this year, I think she may have beaten Yu-Na judging from the way she was scored in the SP. If Carolina had been clean she would have beaten Yu-Na in the SP.
I didn't. It was OP, and you followed. Does it make you and him/her "above and beyond" stupidity? Judging by your reply it does. Anything new?
Kim has no issues on her flip. Do not let the stupid tech caller fool you.
Also Kim's SP at Worlds was not clean. She had an edge call and her flying camel was a level 1 or 2 I believe. The program was also tenative and extremely boring, and along with that skating early and not established as the dominant skater anymore, like she is now again. I predict her next clean short will be atleast a 75. Even Suzuki got a 66 at the WTT with only a triple toe-triple toe, so even she could score close to 70 with a harder combination, and likewise Sotnikova would have scored around 70 with a fully rotated triple lutz-triple toe, so you had better believe Kim will score alot higher than that (unless there is doubting with a similar combination she would far outscore Sotnikova and Suzuki, LOL) with a triple lutz-triple toe next time around.
Well... she had clean SP in NRW- B class competition which is known that judgement is generous. but her score was 72.
Also, when judges want to hammer her, they can give "e" on flip again in everytime.
just Ando is known for power jumper and received same GOE on some jumps in 2011 world, like Caro at 2013 World. I thought... they are in same position, against kim
You have to realize that GOE isn't weighted against one skater meaning just b/c someone gave Yu-Na a +2 doesn't necessarily mean every other skater they gave a +2 to has matched her quality or execution. It means that within that skater's program, given that skater's ability and the way they executed it, the judges felt it was worth +2. That doesn't diminish Yu-Na's abilities or put said skater on equal ground with her. GOEs have nothing to do with other skaters.
Your questions to me always were related to Carolina's jumps versus Yu-Na's jumps and in that respect, I do believe the two have similar quality in jumps. You can take that to mean that if Yu-Na does a clean lutz and Carolina does a clean lutz, 9 times out of 10, I think both deserve +2 for their execution of that element. Does that Carolina's lutz was as high as Yu-Na's? No. Does that mean Yu-Na's landing of her lutz was as nicely extended as Carolina's? No. It means that given each skater's ability and the way they skate, the quality that the two are able to achieve within their skating is comparable.
Like I said Suzuki and Sotnikova would have both scored around 70 at the WTT with a clean program with a triple lutz-triple toe. If even THEY can do that, I am 110% sure Kim also doing a triple lutz-triple toe will have no problem scoring a 75 next year with a clean and strong short. Kostner can score atleast 70 with her triple toe-triple toe if she goes clean, but she needs a harder combo than that next season or she will lose ground in the SP alone to a clean Kim and certainly a clean Asada (who has a 3axel and hard 3-3) next time around.
As for your last comment perhaps, but judges generally dont want to "hammer" Kim. Her scores tend to be a bit on the generous side more often than not in fact as Mary01 pointed out. Last years Worlds SP was an exception it was the reverse, but dont look for that to become a trend, especialy now that she is established as the top dog again.
Oh, I don't agree with that interpretation at all. The bullets for GOEs are intended to be as objective as possible. In principle, they should be measured against an absolute scale, not just compared with what a skater's limitation in talent allows.
If a skater get "pretty good height for her, poor thing," that does not deserve the same GOE as someone who gets good height, period.
It is so funny that in this thread, who are repeatedly claiming 'if all go clean, Yuna will win!' are almost Asada's fans. You, and Let's talk.(Ah, exceptionally, Ven). I think you and let's talk are more pessimistic than me.Lol, I think you are being too pessimistic, venlac. Yuna will not be taken from her favorite status. Though if all went clean in this thread's scenario, Yuna would certainly not run away with it by a large margin except as claimed by a Kool Aid drinker.
I was talking about whole season, not in one competiton... I mean, In next whole season, if she is no longer consistency like she has been, and usually has similar mistakes with her competitors in competitions, She just would be taken from that place(favorite) immediatelyI agree with Cheerio. Yu-Na is definitely the favorite coming in and even when she makes little mistakes, usually the rest of her skating is strong enough to get by on. I don't think one bad performance will knock her off the top...however, a string of bad performances is another story but when has Yu-Na ever been known to fold? Every now and then she bends but girlfriend is not a breaker
I do think it is closer this time around but (as of now) Yu-Na still outpaces the rest of the field. Personally, I'm hoping everyone brings their A-game this season. It always makes the competitions more interesting and exciting when things are close.