Why I think Cohen deserved silver in Turin.

[slutskayafan21]

I would agree that Sasha's silver was a gift. Didn't Sasha think so too? I would've had her in 4th and Fumie in 2nd, with Irina in 3rd.
You know, the "real" rivalry all along has been Sasha and Fumie. I never did understand the Sasha vs. Kwan thing. It was Fumie that surprised everyone more than once at Worlds and got a medal while Cohen faltered. I would hardly call Fumie 2nd tier, and I doubt Sasha would either considering that Fumie has beaten her at Worlds when it counts.

I agree Fumie vs Sasha is a real rivalry. The events I can think of off the top of my head:

2002-Fumie beats Sasha out for bronze at Goodwill Games. Sasha beat Fumie at Olympics where Sasha is 4th, Fumie 5th. Fumie beats Sasha for bronze at the Worlds after the Olympics.

2003-Sasha beats Fumie easily at Skate Canada. Sasha wins GP final where Fumie comes last. Fumie comes back to beat Sasha out for the bronze at Worlds. At post-Worlds cheesefest Fumie comes close 2nd behind Kwan with cleanest long program I ever saw her do, she was in tears in the kiss and cry in fact, Sasha turns in sloppy performance but comes right behind in 3rd.

2004-Fumie beats Sasha to win GP final which Sasha was heavily favored to win but falls 3 times, once in short, twice in long. Fumie only misses triple loop in long, her worst jump. Sasha easily outdoes Fumie at Worlds though, Sasha wins silver, while Fumie one of the favorites after big GP final win takes only 7th, while teammate Arakawa steals show and wins gold some though Fumie might win for Japan here.

2005-Sasha and Fumie only meet at Worlds IIRC and Sasha takes silver, Fumie 5th.

2006-as talked about this whole thread, at Olympics Sasha takes silver, Fumie 4th, much debated placements for both. Then at Worlds Fumie wins silver, just edging out Sasha who takes bronze.

The events I can think of it is 6-6 since the start of 2002, but if somebody has a more accurate one with events I missed feel free to correct me.

 

[SeaniBu]

If you dont find her overscored that is fine. I do find her overscored, we will have to agree to disagree.

True, I apologize for not making it clearer that opinions are fine and OK with me as well. This is a wonderful thing just to get "fired up" about skating and express our beliefs.

Her edges are flat and her basic skating is clearly below some of her chief competitors. That is why I find her skating skills scores much too high, but judges tend to score all 5 PC categories as 1, so if you are excellent at 1, less excellent at the other, they score you excellent in each anyway.

So you have seen her live in the front row to hear as well? I guess I was blessed with a better night than you saw - entirely likely.

Some fans or analysts agree, some dont, Sasha is always a debate when it comes to judging it seems.

Precisely, a debate amongst those not judging where it counts, the compitition.

Fine, I also trust that people like Brian Boitano and Elvis Stojko who both said they would not have given her the silver that night for sure have opinions worth trusting as well.

Not to say that I would conceder my opinion more substantial than theirs, but I would say there is a bias with skaters that are in or recently removed from that which contribute to their bias opinions. I do have to believe in the judging more than their Highly respected but not as appreciated opinions.

Sasha a quiet skater with little blade noise? Ummm ok. I guess the judges ridiculously generous skating skills scores they award Sasha has everyone fooled in that aspect of her skating.

BTW that is not what was said. Exaggeration is acceptable to some degree, I feel that was a little OOC to exaggerate your point. A little less than respectable - sorry but honestly.

I guess this brings again the thought that maybe my experience with her front row was a fluke that her quite blades just happened just for me.
I don't assume you know how much I admire Ira, but Sasha was quieter than her - Ira being my second fave.

 

[antmanb]

I feel that Sasha deserved silver and Fumie the bronze. I have always thought that Irina was overrated. Her skates were all speed and biellmans. Also, I definitely would not call Fumie a second tier skater. Sokolova would be a second tier skater IMO.

What's the difference between the two??

In my opinion neither are "secnod tier" skaters, in fact top 5 at Championships i would say are all first tier skaters.

Ant

 

[purplecat]

I felt the placements in the ladies' event was fair. I had no problem with the medalists or their order.

 

[R.D.]

Maybe if she entered just as a lark and didn't really care, her nerves wouldn't get the best of her and she'd do fine.
.

I got the impression that that's the way she felt at 06 Worlds. She was just sort of phoning everything in. And it was her worst competition in years. I'm still amazed that she was able to make the podium.

As for the Olympics I initially thought Slutskaya should have won silver. But looking back maybe the placements were right. It was so close between the two. Also remember Cohen made two BLATANT, JARRING mistakes at the beginning.

 

[SeaniBu]

Also remember Cohen made two BLATANT, JARRING mistakes at the beginning.

:agree: The Judges must have been steeping their tea Really was that "scoreable" (new verb) though?

 

[Mathman]

It was so close between the two. Also remember Cohen made two BLATANT, JARRING mistakes at the beginning.

Well, this is the CoP. No one cares about BLATANT, JARRING mistakes any more (check out the pairs silver medal performance).

Sasha did 6 triples, and got full credit (base value) for every one of them. She picked up a net 2 points for her triple Lutz (fall) and 2.64 for her triple flip (almost fall), and 6.38 out of a possible 7.5 for her faulty 3T+3S sequence. Do the math.

But falls, etc., detract form the program compnent scores, right? Skating skills? Flow of the choreography and interpretation? Well, no. In PCSs Arakawa got 63.00 for her breath-taking program, Cohen got 62.41 for her gutsy recovery, and Slutskaya got 61.87 for her flat, disappointing effort. (All ahead of Fumie, of course.)

I think Sasha deserved to be ahead of Irina because Sasha's skate got better and better while Irina's got worse and worse. I would have said Arakawa, Rochette, Suguri, Cohen, Slutskaya (just talking about the long program). But then, I am not the CoP.

 

[Mathman]

I got the impression that that's the way she felt at 06 Worlds. She was just sort of phoning everything in. And it was her worst competition in years. I'm still amazed that she was able to make the podium.

I think this is a different situation. At Worlds, she was emotionally exhausted and wished she was anywhere but in a skating arena.

Plus, she was widely expected to win in a walk in the absense of the other Olympic stars.

If she could come to Nationals saying, I've got nothing to prove, I'll just skate for fun, it could make all the difference.

 

[R.D.]

maybe Worlds she needs that attitude more. At Nats Kimmie will no longer be a pushover; she'll now be serious competition for Cohen. (Her new "Michelle Kwan", maybe? )

So now that she HAS a national gold, does she have the desire to get another one? Will she come with a "do enough to make the world team" attitude or "I want to win this" attitude?

Assuming she goes, of course. I seriously doubt it, though. Supposedly she's going to be on the today show soon so maybe we'll know then.

 

[slutskayafan21]

maybe Worlds she needs that attitude more. At Nats Kimmie will no longer be a pushover; she'll now be serious competition for Cohen. (Her new "Michelle Kwan", maybe? )

So now that she HAS a national gold, does she have the desire to get another one? Will she come with a "do enough to make the world team" attitude or "I want to win this" attitude?

Assuming she goes, of course. I seriously doubt it, though. Supposedly she's going to be on the today show soon so maybe we'll know then.

Sasha has never won Nationals beating a huge rival at the time. She never beat Kwan, and Meissner was not a huge rival at the time of 2006 Nationals. That is something she might like to accomplishment but she does not seem to be showing the commitment to do that.

 

[R.D.]

Sasha has never won Nationals beating a huge rival at the time. She never beat Kwan, and Meissner was not a huge rival at the time of 2006 Nationals. That is something she might like to accomplishment but she does not seem to be showing the commitment to do that.

Agreed.

Then again, just because we don't hear about it doesn't necessarily mean it's not happening. She could still be training "full time" but not even a peep is being made about it.

 

[SeaniBu]

Sasha has never won Nationals beating a huge rival at the time.

:agree: True, yet it would seem Sasha's biggest rival is Sasha:yes:

 

[slutskayafan21]

:agree: True, yet it would seem Sasha's biggest rival is Sasha:yes:

True and she has never really beaten her in a major championship either.

 

[SeaniBu]

True and she has never really beaten her in a major championship either.

:agree:

 

[Mathman]

For MM of Yuka - still such a wonderful smile
http://www.filefactory.com/file/1aec4e/

Thanks for the download. It's not the smile so much as the cute way she is playing with her hair...

 

[SeaniBu]

Thanks for the download. It's not the smile so much as the cute way she is playing with her hair...

No way! I just sent you a PM about the very thing And if I had hair like that I couldn't keep my hands out of it

 

[antmanb]

Well, this is the CoP. No one cares about BLATANT, JARRING mistakes any more (check out the pairs silver medal performance).

Sasha did 6 triples, and got full credit (base value) for every one of them. She picked up a net 2 points for her triple Lutz (fall) and 2.64 for her triple flip (almost fall), and 6.38 out of a possible 7.5 for her faulty 3T+3S sequence. Do the math.

Did she really do 6 triples? I thought she fell (not that COP called the second one a fall) on the opening two triples? Surely Zayak rule means she only landed 5 more (unless she did the triple axel and i missed it?)

Ant

 

[Mathman]

That's what I was saying. Even if you fall, according to the CoP you still did a triple. On her first jump, where it was actually called a fall, she got 6.0 points for doing a triple Lutz, then lost 3 in GOE and 1 for a fall deduction, but still ended up two points to the good.

In contrast, Arakawa double her triple loop and got 1.7 points (including second half bonus).

By the same token, according to the CoP Jeff Buttle did a fully "ratified" quad toe at the Olympics, but Stephane Lambiel did not do a triple Axel at worlds.

OT, someone (a skating insider) over on FSU posted an explanation of why the judges' GOEs were all over the place on Lambiel's Axel. Evidently the judges must key in their GOEs in real time, so if there is a delay or review or reversal in making the call, the judges just have to judge what they saw. Afterward I think they are supposed to adjust their GOEs to the actual call that was made, but usually they don't.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There's never been a public close-up of Lambiel's 3A in worlds. With some of those GoEs there had to be disagreement in that Call.

Maybe the ISU does not want a Caller to look stupid and keep the secrecy going.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

That's what I was saying. Even if you fall, according to the CoP you still did a triple. On her first jump, where it was actually called a fall, she got 6.0 points for doing a triple Lutz, then lost 3 in GOE and 1 for a fall deduction, but still ended up two points to the good.

Oh i see what you mean! I can't get my head out of the 6.0 mentality of - if you fall on the jump, you didn't complete the triple. If you two-footed, stepped out, turned out, double three turn/twizzle out then you stood a triple but you didn't complete it.

Ant