State of US Ladies in skating III: 2014-15 Season

[Tavi...]

Well, if we want to discuss the status of the US ladies...it would be beneficial for the #1 to win an international event. I mean all the discussion on SB scores seem relevant so why not final placements?

Anyway..I also said its not impossible to sneak in there for a WC medal and I was simply trying to answer a question that you posed from my perspective

FWIW..Mariah Bell is one of my favorite skaters and she isn't winning or even medaling so these people do mean something to some people. :yes:

I forgot to say I love Mariah Bell. I think she will be at Midwest Sectionals in a few weeks & am hoping to attend at least the LP. Really looking forward to it!

 

[Tavi...]

Actually Max won bronze, but not big deal. Your point is still valid.

Thank you, I knew that, but just spaced!

 

[Tavi...]

There. That's it. Technical issues. Precisely what keeps holding us back. Forget choreo, music and all that other stuff. That doesn't matter nearly as much as having solid technical skills and the ability to deliver under pressure. The current US crop seems to have either one or the other (or neither), but not both. And that's what the world's medalists of the past decade have all had, and why the US has fallen short every time. I mean, we finally are sending 3 women again to worlds, so things are better than they were just a couple of years ago, but US ladies still find themselves behind the 8-ball technically. Then again, maybe the best talent is just elsewhere in the world these days and we've had our run...What's it going to take to regain that edge?

Did Russia make a concerted effort over the past few years to develop women by seeking out & training kids from a young age, or am I wrong? We don't really do that here.

Agree with you about the importance of ability to perform consistently under pressure, but I have to say that as to technical brilliance, without artistry & performance skill, for me personally it is pretty dull - something I can appreciate intellectually but which doesn't draw me in.

 

[Tavi...]

That is what I was getting at. There probably should be some expectations put on the top girls. With Gracie's abilities she should at least have won something even if only a senior B event. That said....I think the prize this year is WC's and after a grueling season I expect a bit of cooling from the surging youngsters from last year and it may not be until December or January when they start firing on all cylinders.

I expect Polina to come out firing like a college Freshman gunning to ace her AP tests! US nationals will be fun to watch.

Just to play devil's advocate, isn't it possible that by putting expectations on the top women (men, pairs, etc.) we're simply increasing the amount of pressure they're under and actually making it harder for them to give us those medals we so desperately want?

On the other hand, I pretty much have had it up to here with Jay Cutler & the Bears this year so in that sense, I can understand putting expectations on our top women - all I have to do is remember that the Russian women are more or less like Aaron Rogers (invincible).

 

[Tavi...]

Jason has at least won an international competition (Nebelhorn Trophy), which Gracie has yet to do in 2.5 years on the international circuit. Jason arguably is probably outperforming considering he doesn't have a quad.

Gracie on the other hand has the technical goods and should be able to win competitions.

Ah, that makes sense. I really hope she gets it together. It was really extraordinary to watch her up close at SA - there is just so much talent there.

Sorry for all the separate posts - I still have not learned the art of multi quoting on my phone.

And I was surprised to find that Frank Carroll was taller than I expected!

 

[flying camel]

For me personally I'm not disappointed that we have had skaters who won silver and bronze medals. I am not happy with some of the performances. Some of the jumps aren't great, I don't like some of the music selections. I just don't see top level performances. That's just my opinion. I happen to love Cesario, but without the proper technique she is not getting anywhere. She puts out good performances, but that's it. Maybe she can be helped because she has the confidence to get out there and give it her best. She needs a jump coach.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

For me personally I'm not disappointed that we have had skaters who won silver and bronze medals. I am not happy with some of the performances. Some of the jumps aren't great, I don't like some of the music selections. I just don't see top level performances. That's just my opinion. I happen to love Cesario, but without the proper technique she is not getting anywhere. She puts out good performances, but that's it. Maybe she can be helped because she has the confidence to get out there and give it her best.

It's also early season too, post-Olympics season. There's bound to be several skaters slumping/struggling.

 

[flying camel]

Yea, but some of us have been frustrated waiting on someone who can just skate with no drama.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yea, but some of us have been frustrated waiting on someone who can just skate with no drama.

I'd say most people are waiting on the sport to return to skating with drama.

 

[cooper]

who knows really?? the russians are clearly the ones to beat.. but who knows in pyeongchang.. you will never know..

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Oh wow... Polina.... :disapp: I mean, it would have been hard for her to best Julia and Liza in the SP but she bommmmbed that SP... and Cain too.

 

[ice coverage]

Caught a few thoughts about pollution in the Cup of China threads.
In the Wednesday installment (pre-SP) of Polina's blog from Shanghai, she made general remarks about the local pollution (not in relation to her skating):

The weather was supposed to be sunny with clear skies, but when we looked outside, all we could see was thick fog -- or so we thought. We later learned it was not fog but pollution. It seemed all the pollution from Beijing had shifted over to Shanghai; even at eye level, walking around outside, it was foggy. ...
At 2 p.m., we left for the rink on the shuttle. It was so interesting to see the buildings in the near distance appear fuzzy from the pollution/fog. I was fascinated by it.​

LOL, seems that Polina is addicted to those dumplings:

After returning to the hotel, we went to the Yang's Dumplings restaurant again for dinner. We just love the dumplings! We ate with Ashley Cain and her parents there, and it was a sight to see us eating. I was using my chopsticks, while Ashley abandoned them completely. We were dropping them and laughing, while the people around us were taking pictures of us trying to eat! We foreigners were pretty amusing to them.​

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2014/11/04/100494286/shanghai-ice-edmunds-reports-from-cup-of-china​

Nice off-ice photo of Gao, Edmunds, Cain at Cup of China practice on Thursday.

https://www.facebook.com/278550292537/photos/pcb.10153316935387538/10153316915597538/?type=1 (posted by International Figure Skating)​

 

[Kittosuni]

looks like babysitter Ashley will claim the US no. 1 spot from the sonogram and princess wannabe once again

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

looks like babysitter Ashley will claim the US no. 1 spot from the sonogram and princess wannabe once again

I felt bad for Polina and I really did not see that coming. To top it off she looked pretty crushed in the K&C. She'll probably save face in the FS. Go get em girl!!

 

[ice coverage]

Stat-fact re Wagner's speed going into her combination jump, per Craig Buntin's VeriSkate analytics:

It was distinctly lower than the corresponding speeds of her Russian counterparts in the Skate Canada International SP.

http://www.tsn.ca/video/skate-canada-new-skating-technology-1.122680​

Pogorilaya: Speed 1 = 23.6 km/h; Distance = 2.5 m; Speed 2 = 12.1

Wagner: Speed 1 = 20.6; Distance = 2.2; Speed 2 = 10.3

Leonova: Speed 1 = 23.4 ; Distance = 3.5; Speed 2 = 15.8​

Speed 1 = Speed into first jump

Distance = Distance covered by the first jump

Speed 2 = Speed being carried into second jump​

The discussion of VeriSkate starts at approx. 1:16 at the link above; the data above are from the chart at approx 1:37.

 

[R.D.]

Oh wow... Polina.... :disapp: I mean, it would have been hard for her to best Julia and Liza in the SP but she bommmmbed that SP... and Cain too.

Hate to say I told ya so, but...yeah. This was always a strong possibility. Give her time as well, but I know I'm just as D&O as most other US fans that the Americans just can't seem to deliver when it counts. Still, remember it's only November. We'll see if the Russians can keep up this level throughout the rest of the season...

 

[louisa05]

There. That's it. Technical issues. Precisely what keeps holding us back. Forget choreo, music and all that other stuff. That doesn't matter nearly as much as having solid technical skills and the ability to deliver under pressure. The current US crop seems to have either one or the other (or neither), but not both. And that's what the world's medalists of the past decade have all had, and why the US has fallen short every time. I mean, we finally are sending 3 women again to worlds, so things are better than they were just a couple of years ago, but US ladies still find themselves behind the 8-ball technically. Then again, maybe the best talent is just elsewhere in the world these days and we've had our run...What's it going to take to regain that edge?

I wonder how much of it is just downright cultural at this point?

In our sports for young children in this country, technical correctness is not emphasized across the board. Early success is valued more. When I taught high school, coaches of team sports would complain regularly about some supposed phenom who was scoring 40 pts in Y League basketball at age 7 who was now a freshman and had to be retaught how to shoot--because a 7 yr old doesn't have the arm strength to shoot correctly and compensates with bad technique. Or the kid that learned to tackle wrong playing tackle football at 8 when he was not strong enough. Or the pitcher in baseball or softball...you get the idea. And how many times have we seen a Caroline Zhang doing ridiculous jumps at an early age with horrible technique that means she doesn't succeed as a senior? She is far from the only one.

It seems U.S. Figure Skating needs to start from the bottom, not the top. Champs Camp isn't the answer. It is far too late. Coaches working with beginning skaters are where the change needs to come. Technique needs to be emphasized over early success. And we all need to relax about the Jason Browns of skating who get those big jumps slowly--because better to master them later with proper technique than at ten with a mule kick or whatever else.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It is interesting though that Ashley has so far been the best US skater so far this season... and unless Polina pulls out a miracle FS and the others bomb, she's likely the US' best chance at making the GPF.

Not to be an I-told-you-so, but I-told-you-so, re: Ashley still being a contender and not out of the equation in terms of US #1 this season. I just didn't expect to be right about it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hate to say I told ya so, but...yeah. This was always a strong possibility. Give her time as well, but I know I'm just as D&O as most other US fans that the Americans just can't seem to deliver when it counts. Still, remember it's only November. We'll see if the Russians can keep up this level throughout the rest of the season...

This was quite the bombing though. There's no reason she should have at least tacked on a 2T to her 3F. It's Short Program 101. A fall is disappointing, but she would at least have spared herself from being out of the final flight had she done a simple 2T.

 

[NaVi]

I hope Polina pulls herself up because she has so much potential. A clean skate would have easily put her into 3rd.

I think some of things may have worked against her psychologically...
1. She was essentially skating in what is normally her sleeping time. (The Russian girls were skating in essentially their afternoon period)
2. There weren't many expectations on her last year, but now people except good results. Gracie and Ashley have each placed and she would need to place too to compete with them and have an outside shot at the final.
3. She's skating with Lipnitskaia...
4. But in the first group where she can expect a lower score ceiling and see others crash before she gets onto the ice...
5. Maybe the blogging was a distraction... I think trying to write for public consumption while prepping for a competition may put you in an non-optimal mindset.
etc, etc...

She's not going to make the Grand Prix final, so she should relax and enjoy getting the experience in. She'll have new platforms to prove herself soon... platforms that probably won't be available for 1 or 2 of the top 5 Russian ladies.