Random Figure Skating Questions

[BravesSkateFan]

I'm sure Ziggy is up there pulling his hair out at my attempts to explain how his language works...

From what I've picked up, it is only the "z"'s that are in strange places the middle of words that are silent.

Taking the Rally Raid driver Krzysztof Hołowczyc as an example, his first name is pronounced as if it was just a straightforward "Kristof", while his surname is pronounced "Hollovchic"

But, you would still pronounce the "Z" at the start of Dorota Zagorska's or Agnes Zawadski's surnames.

Personally, I reckon it's a deliberate ruse to confuse us foreigners...

CaroLiza_fan

Thanks CaroLiza. That makes sense.

 

[peg]

This is for CaroLiza_fan. Back to skaters' names .. one of my favorite English (Welsh?) words is cwm, because it is the only word I know that doesn't have an a, e, i, o, u, or y in it. (Unless nth is a word.) Or you could spell it Coomes, like ice dancer Penny Coomes. I assume that Penny's first name is the Greek Penelope?

In Czech you can say a whole sentence without vowels

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

This is for CaroLiza_fan. Back to skaters' names .. one of my favorite English (Welsh?) words is cwm, because it is the only word I know that doesn't have an a, e, i, o, u, or y in it. (Unless nth is a word.) Or you could spell it Coomes, like ice dancer Penny Coomes. I assume that Penny's first name is the Greek Penelope?

Thanks for putting me on the spot!

"Cwm" is indeed Welsh, and means "valley". And that is about as much as I know about it! I didn't know that it was pronounced the same as Penny's surname, so thank you.

And, yes, Penny is normally a shortened version on Penelope. Although, it has become a name in it's own right in recent years (as a lot of shortened versions have).

Getting back to Welsh, and it must be one of the most complicated languages for non-native speakers to understand, as it is so different to English.

I know practically nothing about Welsh, except that their word for Wales, Cymru, is pronounced "Kim-ree" (sounds like a Korean name!), and that "llan" (as in the towns Llanelli and Llandudno) is pronounced "klan".

So, taking this further, you would expect Llanelli to be pronounced "Kla-ne-kli". But, just to confuse us, it is actually more like "Klan-eth-li"

You know, I never thought of it before, but I suppose that would mean that Lloyd Jones' name should be pronounced "Kloyd"...!

Speaking of Lloyd, with living in France, he has developed a very unique Franco-Welsh accent. Here he is doing an interview game for the Spanish fans that we see at a lot of the competitions.

So that it doesn't sound like I'm picking on poor Lloyd, here is Jenna McCorkell's version.

Getting back to Lloyd, it is amazing how some people's accents can change when they live somewhere else for a while. Like, a lot of people from Northern Ireland (but not Jenna!) who move away end up with an American accent. The person most infamous at home for this is golfer Graeme McDowell.

Here is an interview that BBC NI reporter Stephen Watson did with golfers Darren Clarke (from Dungannon - 10 miles south of me), Graeme McDowell (from Portrush - 40 miles north of me), and Rory McIlroy (from Holywood - 50 miles east of me).

Can you see what I mean?

CaroLiza_fan

 

[StitchMonkey]

In the short program, I know it is a bit more regimented in terms of what is done, but had some questions.

Could a skater do a 1/2 loop 3S after any other jump for their combination, or is a sequence not allowed? If they are allowed, is there any reason that it would be better to avoid it?

Could a skater do an axel in combination in the short or is that flat out not allowed? If they can, how would the other jumps likely end up playing out?

 

[Mrs. P]

In the short program, I know it is a bit more regimented in terms of what is done, but had some questions.

Could a skater do a 1/2 loop 3S after any other jump for their combination, or is a sequence not allowed? If they are allowed, is there any reason that it would be better to avoid it?

Could a skater do an axel in combination in the short or is that flat out not allowed? If they can, how would the other jumps likely end up playing out?

No on both accounts.

the 3X-1L-3S combo is consider a three-jump combo. Only two-jump combos are allowed, I believe.

I believe that a 3A combo was allowed at one time (and then you do another 3A?)...but that changed sometime in the 1990s.

 

[bebece]

was there any skater that deaf or have hearing problem?
was their interpretation of music became problem

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, there was a very good deaf ice dancer here in the US, Eve Chalom!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_Chalom

Eve and her partner Matthew Gates are two time US silver medalists.

From her bio

Chalom is almost entirely deaf, having lost most of her hearing in both ears after a childhood accident. She received bachelor degrees from the University of Michigan[2] in English and Philosophy. Chalom currently resides in New York City where she works as a modern dancer. In addition, she teaches figure skating part-time.

My understanding is that deaf dancers can feel.the vibrations of the beat, even if they cannot hear the music.

Chalom& Gates 1998 OD US Nationals
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b_dLdB-fFEo

Chalom & Gates 1998 FD US Nationals
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DXbqp21ONMI

 

[bartlebooth]

According to Wikipedia, Adam Rippon was born deaf, then underwent surgery as a child and now he can hear almost perfectly.

 

[iluvtodd]

Yes, there was a very good deaf ice dancer here in the US, Eve Chalom!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_Chalom

Eve and her partner Matthew Gates are two time US silver medalists.

From her bio



My understanding is that deaf dancers can feel.the vibrations of the beat, even if they cannot hear the music.

Chalom& Gates 1998 OD US Nationals
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b_dLdB-fFEo

Chalom & Gates 1998 FD US Nationals
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DXbqp21ONMI

Very impressive! I remember them fondly.

According to Wikipedia, Adam Rippon was born deaf, then underwent surgery as a child and now he can hear almost perfectly.

I had no idea. Thank goodness he can now hear well!

 

[inskate]

In the short program, I know it is a bit more regimented in terms of what is done, but had some questions.

Could a skater do a 1/2 loop 3S after any other jump for their combination, or is a sequence not allowed? If they are allowed, is there any reason that it would be better to avoid it?

Could a skater do an axel in combination in the short or is that flat out not allowed? If they can, how would the other jumps likely end up playing out?

Mrs.P is correct in that 3X-HL-3S combo is considered a three-jump combination under the current rules and thus now allowed in the SP.

However, it's actually possible (if risky and not particularly point-efficient) to use an Axel in combination in the SP. Mao Asada used to go for 3A-2T and 2A in the SP, since the ladies were not allowed to use 3A to fulfill the axel jump requirement until the 2010-11 season. Since the rules have been changed, it's possible to go for:
- 3A-2T (triple in combination) + 2A (Axel jump) - Mao's old layout (also attempted by Tonya Harding and Yukari Nakano). Not point efficient now.
- 3A (Axel jump) and 2A-3T or 2A-3L (triple in combination) - potentially more point efficient for a lady skater, but extremely risky. Doubling the 3T/3L would make the entire jumping pass an invalid element, since 2A is not a triple Also, doubling the first 3A would make it necessary to replace the 2A-3T combo with something else, since you can't repeat jumps in the SP (unless they are a part of the same combo).
- 2A (Axel jump) and 3A-3T (triple in combination) - technically possible, but not point efficient. Chances are, a skater capable of landing 3A-3T would be also able to land other 3-3s, so 3A + 3Lz-3T (for example) would be much better option. However, it was once a popular jumping layout for men (see: Ilia Kulik's Olympic SP from 1998).

 

[Sandpiper]

Mrs.P is correct in that 3X-HL-3S combo is considered a three-jump combination under the current rules and thus now allowed in the SP.

However, it's actually possible (if risky and not particularly point-efficient) to use an Axel in combination in the SP. Mao Asada used to go for 3A-2T and 2A in the SP, since the ladies were not allowed to use 3A to fulfill the axel jump requirement until the 2010-11 season. Since the rules have been changed, it's possible to go for:
- 3A-2T (triple in combination) + 2A (Axel jump) - Mao's old layout (also attempted by Tonya Harding and Yukari Nakano). Not point efficient now.
- 3A (Axel jump) and 2A-3T or 2A-3L (triple in combination) - potentially more point efficient for a lady skater, but extremely risky. Doubling the 3T/3L would make the entire jumping pass an invalid element, since 2A is not a triple Also, doubling the first 3A would make it necessary to replace the 2A-3T combo with something else, since you can't repeat jumps in the SP (unless they are a part of the same combo).
- 2A (Axel jump) and 3A-3T (triple in combination) - technically possible, but not point efficient. Chances are, a skater capable of landing 3A-3T would be also able to land other 3-3s, so 3A + 3Lz-3T (for example) would be much better option. However, it was once a popular jumping layout for men (see: Ilia Kulik's Olympic SP from 1998).

I believe the double axel was a requirement in the men's SP until around the 1998-99 season (when quads began to become allowed). Under 6.0, 2A + 3A-3T + 3Lz was the most point-efficient/technically challenging layout, since you get the hardest jump (3A) into the SP, and you get to put it in the most difficult allowed combination (no longer rewarded under COP).

 

[StitchMonkey]

No on both accounts.

the 3X-1L-3S combo is consider a three-jump combo. Only two-jump combos are allowed, I believe.

I believe that a 3A combo was allowed at one time (and then you do another 3A?)...but that changed sometime in the 1990s.

Mrs.P is correct in that 3X-HL-3S combo is considered a three-jump combination under the current rules and thus now allowed in the SP.


However, it's actually possible (if risky and not particularly point-efficient) to use an Axel in combination in the SP. Mao Asada used to go for 3A-2T and 2A in the SP, since the ladies were not allowed to use 3A to fulfill the axel jump requirement until the 2010-11 season. Since the rules have been changed, it's possible to go for:
- 3A-2T (triple in combination) + 2A (Axel jump) - Mao's old layout (also attempted by Tonya Harding and Yukari Nakano). Not point efficient now.
- 3A (Axel jump) and 2A-3T or 2A-3L (triple in combination) - potentially more point efficient for a lady skater, but extremely risky. Doubling the 3T/3L would make the entire jumping pass an invalid element, since 2A is not a triple Also, doubling the first 3A would make it necessary to replace the 2A-3T combo with something else, since you can't repeat jumps in the SP (unless they are a part of the same combo).
- 2A (Axel jump) and 3A-3T (triple in combination) - technically possible, but not point efficient. Chances are, a skater capable of landing 3A-3T would be also able to land other 3-3s, so 3A + 3Lz-3T (for example) would be much better option. However, it was once a popular jumping layout for men (see: Ilia Kulik's Olympic SP from 1998).

Thanks for the lesson, fun stuff. Interesting that the 3A was not allowed as the axel in the female discipline. Almost think that in that case 2A should not be allowed for men, but ohh well. Seems not allowing it would give women less incentive to train for it. Kinda sad.

I do wonder if they will start allowing the 1/2 loop salchow as an option eventually. Given the virtual disappearance of 3Ls from combinations (or at least the second jump, not sure if I recall one way or the other if some skaters are doing it for their first jump of a combo) I wonder if they may open the door for a little more variety.

Have any skaters tried doing a 1/2 loop with a flip for the end? If I have not completely gotten lost, in theory they are on the correct edge/foot for a flip after the 1/2 loop, so it would just be a matter of swinging the landing land around to dig the toe pick in unless I am missing something weird or just not familiar with the logistics. Can't help but think a 3Z 1/2L 3F would be interesting to see. Might also be an interesting way to demonstrate clear edges doing them back to back like that.

Have any guys tried tossing a 1/2 loop salchow onto a quad? I keep thinking a 4S 1/2L 3S would be fun to see. Might also be a better option for someone like Max Aaron who seems to really want do do multiple quads/quads in combination, but struggles with doubling the planned triple toe on the end. Wouldn't that allow them (in the long, i kinda switched gears here) to jump a 4S alone, then the 4S in sequence. Then they would still be able to have 2 3As and 2 3Ts available for the rest of the jumping passes. So maybe 4S, 4S+1/2L+3S, 3A, 3A+3T, 3Z, 3Z+3T, 3F, 3L for an example, but maybe not in that order. If they replaced one of the 3As with a 2A, they could even drop one of the 4Ss down to a triple if things go wrong without worrying about Zayaking.

For that matter have any women tried doing a 3S+1/2L+3S? Can you tell I am bit of fan of the 1/2 loop sequence?


I also noticed something odd about the sequence when looking at the protocols. How did Ivan RIGHINI (10th place page 5 viewable here if you are interested) manage to get an UR on the 1/2 loop in the middle? Did he just hop to the other foot in place? Is it possible it is a weird typo and it was one of the others jumps that was under? It seems odd to have a half jump under rotated. Maybe that was their compromise rather than calling it a step out on the first jump that interrupted the sequence?

 

[Mathman]

Given the virtual disappearance of 3Ls from combinations (or at least the second jump, not sure if I recall one way or the other if some skaters are doing it for their first jump of a combo)...

Some ladies do a 3Lo combo (with the 3Lo as the first jump) in the short program -- Pogoilaya and Oba both did at Rostelcom last weekend. A triple loop is worth only two tenths of a point less than a triple flip, so it's a viable option if your loop ois better than your flip?

Have any skaters tried doing a 1/2 loop with a flip for the end?

Plushenko did a triple Axel+1/2 loop + 3flip. ]

 

[inskate]

Thanks for the lesson, fun stuff. Interesting that the 3A was not allowed as the axel in the female discipline. Almost think that in that case 2A should not be allowed for men, but ohh well. Seems not allowing it would give women less incentive to train for it. Kinda sad.

A leftover from the 6.0 system, I think. The purpose of short/technical program was to compare the quality of elements of similar difficulty (whether or not it accomplished this goal successfully is another question altogether). Not so long ago a required solo jump in the senior ladies SP was a double... It's kind of odd now to watch Midori Ito do 2Lz in the SP (albeit an awesome one!) when she could land a 3A in the LP.

I do wonder if they will start allowing the 1/2 loop salchow as an option eventually. Given the virtual disappearance of 3Ls from combinations (or at least the second jump, not sure if I recall one way or the other if some skaters are doing it for their first jump of a combo) I wonder if they may open the door for a little more variety.

The loop combos are still kicking around! I saw some jumps with 3L either on the end (mostly from novices, i.e. Yuna Aoki) or at the beginning (3L-2T, 3L-2L, at least one 3L-3T).
I don't think it's very likely they'll allow jump combos with a half loop in the middle; the purpose of the "a triple jump in a combination" requirement is to test the skaters' ability to land a triple with a landing controlled enough to tack on a double or a triple on the end; I could see many skaters "saving" themselves with half loop combos when their landings were messy.

Have any skaters tried doing a 1/2 loop with a flip for the end?

Evgeni Plushenko has landed 3A-HL-3F (well, technically, 3A-HL-3Lip). Shoma Uno landed 2A-HL-3F last season. This season I saw some combos with 2F at the end (2Lz-HL-2F) at the novice/junior level

Have any guys tried tossing a 1/2 loop salchow onto a quad?

I can't remember any, at least not in competition. My hat off to anybody who might have attempted it at least in practice - checking the rotation of the quad qould be quite difficult.

So maybe 4S, 4S+1/2L+3S, 3A, 3A+3T, 3Z, 3Z+3T, 3F, 3L for an example, but maybe not in that order.

TBH it looks like a Zayak violation waiting to happen - tripling one of the quad salchows would make it necessary to double one of the repeated triples. Actually, the above layout is already Zayaked - you have repeated 4S, 3A, 3Lz and 3T - only two types of triple or quadruple jumps may be attempted twice in a program

For that matter have any women tried doing a 3S+1/2L+3S?

I can think of any. I think most ladies capable of landing this sequence would prefer to repeat a triple worth more points. ^^'

I also noticed something odd about the sequence when looking at the protocols. How did Ivan RIGHINI (10th place page 5 viewable here if you are interested) manage to get an UR on the 1/2 loop in the middle? Did he just hop to the other foot in place? Is it possible it is a weird typo and it was one of the others jumps that was under? It seems odd to have a half jump under rotated. Maybe that was their compromise rather than calling it a step out on the first jump that interrupted the sequence?

Despite its name, the half loop actually turns a full revolution in the air It's called half loop because in contrast to the normal one (right back outside edge takeoff, right back outside edge landing) it lands on the inside edge of the opposite foot (right back outside edge takeoff, left back inside edge landing).
Ivan actually underrotated his half loop - if you watch the video in slow-mo, you'll see his blade touched the ice too soon. He should land backwards on the inside edge of his left foot.

 

[Skater Boy]

Thanks for the lesson, fun stuff. Interesting that the 3A was not allowed as the axel in the female discipline. Almost think that in that case 2A should not be allowed for men, but ohh well. Seems not allowing it would give women less incentive to train for it. Kinda sad.

I do wonder if they will start allowing the 1/2 loop salchow as an option eventually. Given the virtual disappearance of 3Ls from combinations (or at least the second jump, not sure if I recall one way or the other if some skaters are doing it for their first jump of a combo) I wonder if they may open the door for a little more variety.

Have any skaters tried doing a 1/2 loop with a flip for the end? If I have not completely gotten lost, in theory they are on the correct edge/foot for a flip after the 1/2 loop, so it would just be a matter of swinging the landing land around to dig the toe pick in unless I am missing something weird or just not familiar with the logistics. Can't help but think a 3Z 1/2L 3F would be interesting to see. Might also be an interesting way to demonstrate clear edges doing them back to back like that.

Have any guys tried tossing a 1/2 loop salchow onto a quad? I keep thinking a 4S 1/2L 3S would be fun to see. Might also be a better option for someone like Max Aaron who seems to really want do do multiple quads/quads in combination, but struggles with doubling the planned triple toe on the end. Wouldn't that allow them (in the long, i kinda switched gears here) to jump a 4S alone, then the 4S in sequence. Then they would still be able to have 2 3As and 2 3Ts available for the rest of the jumping passes. So maybe 4S, 4S+1/2L+3S, 3A, 3A+3T, 3Z, 3Z+3T, 3F, 3L for an example, but maybe not in that order. If they replaced one of the 3As with a 2A, they could even drop one of the 4Ss down to a triple if things go wrong without worrying about Zayaking.

For that matter have any women tried doing a 3S+1/2L+3S? Can you tell I am bit of fan of the 1/2 loop sequence?


I also noticed something odd about the sequence when looking at the protocols. How did Ivan RIGHINI (10th place page 5 viewable here if you are interested) manage to get an UR on the 1/2 loop in the middle? Did he just hop to the other foot in place? Is it possible it is a weird typo and it was one of the others jumps that was under? It seems odd to have a half jump under rotated. Maybe that was their compromise rather than calling it a step out on the first jump that interrupted the sequence?

Plushenko did a triple axel 1/2 loop triple flip which was awe inspiring so it is possible. to get the flip at the end of a combo.

 

[gravy]

Alexander Johnson did a 3Z+1L+3F combo in 2013.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-1AI1fXdiE#t=89

 

[Icey]

Hasn't Zhang been doing a triple loop/triple loop in recent years?

 

[Krunchii]

Hasn't Zhang been doing a triple loop/triple loop in recent years?

I think she stopped because it keeps getting marked as underrotated, she usually does a 3Lo-2T I think

 

[humbaba]

According to the new GS article on Samantha Cesario, she does a triple flip/triple loop in the short and a triple loop, half loop, triple Sal in the long.

 

[Krunchii]

According to the new GS article on Samantha Cesario, she does a triple flip/triple loop in the short and a triple loop, half loop, triple Sal in the long.

Samantha attempted it at Skate America at Skate America this year but it was marked as underrotated, I know Adelina got in a 3Lz-3Lo at last years GPF, didn't get marked underrotated but she did get an edge call