Why I Love Men's Figure Skating as it is Today

[cheerknithanson]

Any system can always improve, some more than others. There is no such thing as a perfect way to do something IMO And yes, haha! I wish you lived in my city, I need more people my age to talk fs with! arty:

Maybe SMALL improvements but nothing drastic.

And yippee!!!!

 

[Mathman]

To everyone I offended in this thread, I'm sorry.

You didn't offend any one, and thanks for starting the thread.

We are all friends on this board. :yes:

 

[Mrs. P]

To everyone I offended in this thread, I'm sorry.

I'm also sorry that I acted like a 10 year old here. Because that's how I feel like I'm acting.

I know quite a number of guys prefer the 6.0 system.

BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT.....

That was not the main point of my thread. The main point was to tell you guys that "I" think the men's discipline is fine now. Sure there are imperfections, but EVERYONE has imperfections. Not everyone is going to be happy. It has not turned horrible. The technical complexity wows me a lot.


I feel like I made myself look like a big fat idiot.

You don't need to apologize for your opinions.

Just keep in mind that not everyone agrees with you. Some people do feel like IJS is terribly flawed.

I'm a bit older than you -- I'm 32 -- so I have seen a bit of 6.0 (I started watching in the early 1990s, when I was 10 or so) and I also saw the beginning of IJS and its various changes.

My opinion is somewhere in the middle. I, like you, love the fact we can quantify some of the numbers. But i think, like many others, falls are not penalized enough while other mistakes are penalized much more heavily. What's worse -- a UR jump or a jump you fall on? According to IJS, it's the former.

You lose BV AND GOE when you have a wrong edge or a UR. You don't when you fall, you only lose GOE (plus the penalty).

That's my main criticism of the system.

I think the main thing i miss about 6.0 is the fact that things that made a program interesting would be worth a lot less under IJS.

For example: Yuka Sato's AMAZING step sequence at 1994 Worlds. That baby would be like level 1 under IJS now.

Or Tonya Harding's moves in the field during this slow part of her 1991 Skate America FS. Today, she would have put a few more brackets in there. She show such edge control in that move I linked. What is it worth in IJS? Nothing.

ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nLhA7CVIok <--- Paul Wylie's skate of his life in 1992 Olympics, which won him the silver medal. It absolutely thrilled the audience. But funny enough, while it's still a classic watch, now everyone notices that he didn't do any combination jumps! I think viewing it in the IJS era makes that noticeable.

That said, there has been magical performances under both systems.

 

[Interspectator]

Cheerknithanson, I too am a young person who likes the excitement of Men's Skating. I think the current scoring system is good but could use some tweaks especially in the deductions for a fall.
There is room in COP to have a program that is not 'too busy'. Look at Kozuka and Jeremy. plenty of breathing room in their programs, and the only thing holding them back is injury and nerves.

 

[silverfoxes]

Maybe old people like comfort and young people like excitement.

I'm "old," I guess (well - a lot older than 20!), and I still prefer excitement. But I didn't really pay attention to skating until Vancouver, so maybe there is something to the theory about expectations. I've watched a fair amount of 6.0 era skating though and I'd say both eras have their good & bad points. To be honest, I like men's skating now because of the skaters themselves. I would watch my favorites no matter what system we were using, no matter how annoying the judging can be at times. When they do well, it's just a bonus. I like watching skaters from the old era, and of course some of my favorites straddled both 6.0 and COP (Plushy, Joubert, etc.) but it's more exciting to me to see someone's career develop in real time. Wish I had started earlier, but I can't change that.

 

[Matilda]

People missing the old era could post the best performance in her/his opinion to compare? I only remember Yagudin 2002 LP, I didnt follow much skating before that.

I don't necessarily "miss the old era", but I do get frustrated when programs with multiple falls win. Go for quads by all means, but falls should, imo, be punished much harder than they are now. Men's competition has always been my favorite, and still is. I like several current skaters, although I definitely prefer the more artistic skaters with excellent musicality, like Yuzu and Jason. I love a good step sequence, but only when executed well--long, slow steps sequences are simply torturous to me.

One of the things I do miss are spirals and secure, long landings, and in general an emphasis on the QUALITY of jumps (air position, height, landing--not just the number of rotations). In fact, my coach recently expressed her frustration on the emphasis in IJS on transitions directly from jumps, and pointed out that it takes a lot of skill to do a smooth landing and to be able to hold it, and in her opinion it is a skill that should count just as much as the ability to make a quick transition from a landing to another move.

One of my favorite "old" programs: http://youtu.be/_n5r6IMecE8

ETA. I forgot extension: I want each and every skater to focus more on their extension!

 

[cheerknithanson]

Cheerknithanson, I too am a young person who likes the excitement of Men's Skating. I think the current scoring system is good but could use some tweaks especially in the deductions for a fall.
There is room in COP to have a program that is not 'too busy'. Look at Kozuka and Jeremy. plenty of breathing room in their programs, and the only thing holding them back is injury and nerves.

How old are you?

I agree with what you said. One thing that could change is to make the URs less harsh.

 

[Meoima]

I'm a bit older than you -- I'm 32 -- so I have seen a bit of 6.0 (I started watching in the early 1990s, when I was 10 or so) and I also saw the beginning of IJS and its various changes.

I am 27 years old (wish I could change my real age on GK acc now). Practically my memories of FS is full of Kwan, Tara, Sasha... Kulik, Yagudin, Plushy... and I remember watching with joy by the time these skaters competed. The system were so easy to understand back then for a little kid like me. I didn't have to understand which jump is which, just simply pick the performance I like the most. My family used to make fun of the judges those days like: "Oh that skater is from Canada, so that's why the Canadian judge gave him high score."
That was fun.

Now I have to study the whole system again, and each Olympic circle they change the rules so complicate I doubt that even the skaters know all.
It's still fun, though. And I don't mind taking time to get to know more about CoP. I like math. And I still have my favourites.

But I hope the whole system should be less complicated. :hopelessness: I find it hard to explain to casual viewer how the system work most of the time.:hopelessness:

 

[Interspectator]

How old are you?

I agree with what you said. One thing that could change is to make the URs less harsh.

I am sitting sedately in my Roaring 20's.

 

[Mrs. P]

My favorite IJS programs:

1.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0bCvXHtzx4 <--- Yuzuru Hanyu 2012 Worlds FS. He went from 7th to get on the podium!

2.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCkICx4L-yI <---- Patrick Chan 2013 Trophee Eric Bompard SP. This was where I think all of his great skills were in full display.

3.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J61k2XjRryM <----- Jason Brown 2014 U.S. Nationals FS. Need i say more? It went viral 4M view son YT. Need I say more?


My favorite 6.0 programs

1.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UlVeNEBFKE <--- Alexei Yagudin, 2002 Olympics SP -- and oh hey, there's a quad-triple combo!

2.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lH9mg_ZneA <---- Rudy Galindo, 1996 Nationals FS. Defied all odds to WIN.

3.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ttNzEwPMLM <---- Johnny Weir, 2005 Nationals FS. I felt that Johnny struggled in IJS, but glad his skills were more appreciated under 6.0. His 3As are BEAUTIFUL here.


I.e. magic in both systems.

 

[Barb]

John Curry, Brian Boitano and especially Minoru Sano are great, I would be happy if figure skating get that direction again. Why now skaters can´t to do a spread eagle like Brian B or Minoru? only Taka has a decent spread e.

 

[Skater Boy]

Off topic. You were born in 1995 and you knit?

Oh Mathman, your so passee lol. Knitting is very in - men, women, young and old even arm knitting. STudies have show it reduces high blood pressure and stress. You can make everything from doilies and cozies ??? of grandma days to modern jewellry, tree ornaments, sweaters, scarves, infinity scarves, blankets, mits and the list goes on.

 

[Sandpiper]

Maybe old people like comfort and young people like excitement.

I found 6.0 more exciting because if a skater went down, there was a greater cost. And the footwork was more exciting back then. (Regarding the whole age thing--I'm not that old. I guess I just have an inner grandpa. Or I still miss Michelle. I wonder which it is...?)

 

[Skater Boy]

I am 27 years old (wish I could change my real age on GK acc now). Practically my memories of FS is full of Kwan, Tara, Sasha... Kulik, Yagudin, Plushy... and I remember watching with joy by the time these skaters competed. The system were so easy to understand back then for a little kid like me. I didn't have to understand which jump is which, just simply pick the performance I like the most. My family used to make fun of the judges those days like: "Oh that skater is from Canada, so that's why the Canadian judge gave him high score."
That was fun.

Now I have to study the whole system again, and each Olympic circle they change the rules so complicate I doubt that even the skaters know all.
It's still fun, though. And I don't mind taking time to get to know more about CoP. I like math. And I still have my favourites.

But I hope the whole system should be less complicated. :hopelessness: I find it hard to explain to casual viewer how the system work most of the time.:hopelessness:

ITA. My friends don't understand why Mirai gets such low marks when she "skates cleanly". THey have no knowledge of edges and UR's. Forget about the difference between an edge or flip v. a lutz or how levels differs in twizzles and twists. THey can't figure out why skaters are wearing so many sequins and flesh spandex or there are more buns than a McDonald's kitchen and more frills on guys costumes than there are commercials at Super Bowl.

 

[Mathman]

I found 6.0 more exciting because if a skater went down, there was a greater cost. And the footwork was more exciting back then. (Regarding the whole age thing--I'm not that old. I guess I just have an inner grandpa. Or I still miss Michelle. I wonder which it is...?)

I think I have reached the "comfort zone" where I enjoy rewatching old performances where I know the skater didn't fall.

 

[unico]

John Curry, Brian Boitano and especially Minoru Sano are great, I would be happy if figure skating get that direction again. Why now skaters can´t to do a spread eagle like Brian B or Minoru? only Taka has a decent spread e.

Well first and foremost you have to have physically have the hip turnout to be able to do spread eagles, and some skaters don't. Spectacular spread eagles like their's are the exception rather than the standard, regardless of 6.0 or IJS. Here's another recent skater besides Kozuka who has absolutely glorious spread eagles, Jonathon Cassar: http://youtu.be/GfRMUgQDAqM?t=57s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ5qaY92LSs

Thanks for this, interesting to see Minoru Sano as the skater instead of only hearing Minoru Sano the commentator.

Even though I became a fan of figure skating during the IJS and I prefer the IJS to 6.0 (both the system and generally the type of skating it produces), there's still many aspects of the CoP that I agree could be addressed. Fall penalties, spin/step sequence levels, GOE factoring, PCS guidelines... the system is far from perfect. That doesn't mean I don't really enjoy figure skating, but maybe it's because I'm still a young fan. Maybe when I'm older I'll become more jaded

 

[kimganos]

My favorite IJS programs:

1.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0bCvXHtzx4 <--- Yuzuru Hanyu 2012 Worlds FS. He went from 7th to get on the podium!

2.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCkICx4L-yI <---- Patrick Chan 2013 Trophee Eric Bompard SP. This was where I think all of his great skills were in full display.

3.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J61k2XjRryM <----- Jason Brown 2014 U.S. Nationals FS. Need i say more? It went viral 4M view son YT. Need I say more?


My favorite 6.0 programs

1.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UlVeNEBFKE <--- Alexei Yagudin, 2002 Olympics SP -- and oh hey, there's a quad-triple combo!

2.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lH9mg_ZneA <---- Rudy Galindo, 1996 Nationals FS. Defied all odds to WIN.

3.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ttNzEwPMLM <---- Johnny Weir, 2005 Nationals FS. I felt that Johnny struggled in IJS, but glad his skills were more appreciated under 6.0. His 3As are BEAUTIFUL here.


I.e. magic in both systems.

Wonderful Selections!

 

[Blades of Passion]

People missing the old era could post the best performance in her/his opinion to compare? I only remember Yagudin 2002 LP, I didnt follow much skating before that.

It's not necessarily about comparing then to now. It's about what objectively constitutes great skating itself. The level of "artistry" in the sport should have continually been reaching new heights and/or new minimum levels of expectation since 2002.

The skating back then was not perfect. It wasn't even consistently great. But it was usually at least pleasant. Performances these days are flat-out ugly and tedious more often than not. And people hardly get punished for glaring mistakes. This is a big problem.

A balance needs to be found where transitions are rewarded but not to the point where they are more important than giving a performance and serving the choreography. Great spins need to be rewarded without requiring skaters to do a million different positions. Great footwork needs to be rewarded without requiring skaters to cram in so many turns and strict requirements. Great jumps need to be rewarded without forcing everyone to do so many of them in the LP and without punishing skaters for completely arbitrary things ("too many combinations", "too many double jumps").

This right here is essentially the pinnacle of CoP skating (if you cut out the requirement of doing change-edge spins, which were mandated at that time) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNW4h2wTmak

 

[mjj]

Sorry, but this is a ludicrous statement. Yes, Hanyu is a skinny little weed. He also gasps and flops like a fish out of water at the end of his programs. But he's far from the only skater in the world landing quads. I wouldn't call Max Aaron a "slim, pencil-like" man. I wouldn't even call Plushenko or Yagudin that. Or Joubert. Or Gachinski, or Menshov, or Voronov. I wouldn't call Abbott, or Farris, or Miner, or Dornbush that either. Or even Han Yan.

I find it offensive and racist to call Hanyu that. Machida looked tired as well after the FS in last two competitions. Their programs are technically challenging due to the quads etc. How do you think Jason, Dornbush, Farris will look like if today they skate the exact same program which Hanyu did last season?

 

[Interspectator]

I find it offensive and racist to call Hanyu that. Machida looked tired as well after the FS in last two competitions. Their programs are technically challenging due to the quads etc. How do you think Jason, Dornbush, Farris will look like if today they skate the exact same program which Hanyu did last season?

It may be harsh and offensive, but not racist.
Of Karnes examples, both Vornov and Menshov are quite slender.