State of the U.S. Men's Figure Skating for 2014-15

[noskates]

I really like Ricky, too, and I think he looks a lot better than he did at Nationals this year. I think he's one of those skaters that has all the skills and the personality but still hasn't totally mastered competing yet. I think there's been a lot of hype at Josh - some of it earned. I don't know if his injury has just been taking longer to heal or what but he doesn't have much time left to get it all together. I would go along with Brown/Farris/Dornbush!

 

[StitchMonkey]

Perhaps it was too soon for Farris to return to competition; I know I've read that he was doing reasonably well in practices (coming back from his injury), but it's another thing to be competition ready. But if he's better recovered and better prepared, I can certainly see him doing well at Nationals. Along with Dornbush, Farris has my favorite LP of the American men this season (so I am a little biased - i want to see him perform it at Worlds!).

Yes they are different. And to be blunt being able to recognize the difference is also a vital part of being an elite level athlete.
This is one of those things that you feel like a jackass for saying, but it needs to be said. How much of Joshua's problems are from a lack of accurate self-assessment by both him and his coaches? Something went wrong, something that needs to be fixed before he should be on the world's team. Either he was not ready to return physically, or there are issues mentally that need to be addressed, in either case I worry that their ability to accurately assess his state is not where it should be.

I don't know if US Nationals is a valid test bed, it is a very different animal. I kinda feel like Josh needs one good showing, or at least decent showing, at an international competition (post time off/injury issues I know he has had some respectable showings before) before I would put him on the team for worlds. This may be another instance where a 4C showdown might be appropriate. Honestly though, unless the next several guys down have major meltdowns, I think I would send of them them to worlds and have Josh work out the bugs in the Grand Prix next season.

Someone has to get cut and sadly, right now Josh might be one of the easier choices to make and narrow the field.


And not that I quoted you on it, but I agree very largely with Dornbush. He had a respectable season and is technically our number two guy. His LP to me is easily my favorite lyric LP to emerge (Alena Leonova's SP might be my all time favorite). Even at TEB i think he deserves some credit for self-assessment. His SP was actually rather well scored (better than COC) even with no quad. His long program was actually enjoyable to watch if you are a fan of the program already (he put some of the arm variations that got left out at COC back in which i loved) but just did not have the tech content. That being said, it is clear he put thought into his retooled program and did what he could. It may have been a disappointment, but it really could have been a lot worse. He seems to have handled the problems in a reasonable manner.

 

[centerpt1]

Jeremy's PCS will be held down at Nationals to prop up Jason (and Josh if he skates well) It's obvious from the promos/videos/tweets who is favored. That's why Jeremy needs to get the TES up. He won't get any help.

 

[Mrs. P]

Jeremy's PCS will be held down at Nationals to prop up Jason (and Josh if he skates well) It's obvious from the promos/videos/tweets who is favored. That's why Jeremy needs to get the TES up. He won't get any help.

Well, at least Arsenio Hall is no longer on television, so Jason can't relay on his "connections" to boost his PCS score.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Jason vs Jeremy PCS scores.

What really got me interested in looking at this was remembering that Jason's Riverdance did win the free at nationals, but it was his TES that beat Jeremy, and be enough that Jeremy's PCS was still higher than Jason's Riverdance.

So let's take a look.

US Nationals Short Program
Brown 41.68 PCS 87.47 Total
Abbott 45.96 PCS 99.86 Total

US Nationals Free Skate
Brown 93.34 PCS 182.61 Total
Abbott 93.42 PCS 174.41 Total

2014 Olympics Short Program
Brown 41.68 PCS 87.47 Total
Abbott 37.37 PCS 72.58 Total
(Team) 39.43 PCS 65.65 Total

2014 Olympics Free Skate
Brown 84.28 PCS 152.37 Total
(Team) 79.22 PCS 153.67 Total
Abbott 82.02 PCS 160.12 Total

World Championships 2014 (Only Abbott)
SP 39.82 PCS 79.67 Total
FS 86.16 PCS 166.68 Total

Nebelhorn-Trophy 2014 (Only Brown)
SP 40.09 PCS 83.59 Total
FS 85.84 PCS 153.58 Total

Skate America Short Program
Brown 40.81 PCS 79.75 Total
Abbott 41.52 PCS 81.82 Total

Slate America Free Skate
Brown 81.36 PCS 154.42 Total
Abbott 79.22 PCS 137.51 Total

Russia (Only Brown)
SP 39.06 PCS 76.32 Total
FS 78.98 PCS 159.24 Total

NHK (Only Abbott)
SP 40.89 PCS 81.51 Total
FS 83.86 PCS 148.14 Total

So really Abbott does still seem to have the upper hand over all for PCS, but we don't really have the most stable sample. Jason did better head to head in PCS in the free at Skate America when Jeremy had a less than impressive skate. Jason also had the upper hand at the Olympics - some would argue where it counts.

So basically Jeremy's 9 years of senior competition have earned him PCS better than Jason's sophomore season PCS but still within reach. He does still have a slight PCS upper hand, but I don't know if I would call it a cushion. Cushions are comfortable, I am not sure Jeremy would be wise to feel comfortable at this point. Jeremy's PCS are well within reach for Jason at this point.

 

[karne]

I don't think he'll make the World Team again....he'll be held down.

*snort* In what world?! Puh-lease. The USFSA wouldn't dare hold down beloved Jeremy - they'd probably even think it made a nice story, the old man having one last shot at the World medal. They'd rather put fan-beloved Jeremy on that World team than fan-hated Max.

Jeremy's PCS will be held down at Nationals to prop up Jason (and Josh if he skates well) It's obvious from the promos/videos/tweets who is favored. That's why Jeremy needs to get the TES up. He won't get any help.

What are you smoking? Go have a look at the pre-season NBC promos last year. Jeremy got wayyyyyyy more air-time than the reigning National Champion (and the reigning silver medallist got none!) It's Max who won't get the help - Max and Josh won't get any help, people hate Max, and Josh is practically invisible. Josh didn't get any help the year he deserved bronze over Jeremy.

Well, at least Arsenio Hall is no longer on television, so Jason can't relay on his "connections" to boost his PCS score.

Poor Arsenio! That was a short-lived comeback.

 

[centerpt1]

I'm talking this year. Jason with multiple shots in each promo, name first, etc, despite the fact both Max and Jeremy are former National Champs. Watch the tweets-and the video promos.

There is a big Jason push.

Josh got a lot of press after Champs camp but it's died down.

You are right that Max has been shafted. He's in the promos even less than Jeremy.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

Generally I like to support older skaters and I think people have the right to retire when they want, but I think Jeremy definitely peaked several years ago and there is nothing about his skating that would attract me now as a new fan. Putting the lack of tech content aside, the dreary music, his costumes that look like he picked them out of the laundry hamper, and the scrubby facial hair are all major turnoffs. When he looks like he just rolled out of bed a few minutes before the competition, it only adds to the impression that he does not have the mentality of a winner.

I think something doesn't click with Jeremy, he is in a sort of bubble that I think Jason and/or Yuka created. They coddle him and stroke his ego and it really isn't helping him. Yes, I agree his music and costume are dreary. His trademark stare into the distant clouds and the sappiness of his programs are tiresome, they all seem the same after a while.

At this stage in his career he should be going for everything, pushing harder and getting on the podiums. This isn't new to him, he is a very well seasoned skater. He seems to have stagnated and when that happens it is time to step away.

ETA: Just for the record I am not a Jason Brown fan, I have nothing against him but I have to see more of his skating to become a fan.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I'm talking this year. Jason with multiple shots in each promo, name first, etc, despite the fact both Max and Jeremy are former National Champs. Watch the tweets-and the video promos.

And that is the key. Things change fast. USFSA joined team Jason pretty early and pretty fully. I would agree Jeremy gets more attention than Max, but part of that is he brings more drama.

We are also looking at four years till next Olympics not later this season. It makes sense that now they will be focusing on younger skaters. Last year when Jeremy had a reasonable chance to go to the Olympics again, a bit more attention made sense. Now, things are different.

I don't really get the lack of love for Max. I am just going to leave it there.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I think something doesn't click with Jeremy, he is in a sort of bubble that I think Jason and/or Yuka created. They coddle him and stroke his ego and it really isn't helping him. Yes, I agree his music and costume are dreary. His trademark stare into the distant clouds and the sappiness of his programs are tiresome, they all seem the same after a while.

At this stage in his career he should be going for everything, pushing harder and getting on the podiums. This isn't new to him, he is a very well seasoned skater. He seems to have stagnated and when that happens it is time to step away.

Took a moment for it to click you did not mean Jason Brown.

But yeah, something is not quite right in that department. I don't get the impression Yuka has much authority over Jeremy. They seem to interact almost more like peers, like a partnership more so than a coach/student relationship. I don't know how long or how well that can work. It seems Jeremy kinda just does his own thing and Yuka helps out how she can. Part of the point in my mind of having a coach is so they can be the ones to make decisions.

Who knows. Jeremy is clearly going to do his own thing. We will see what comes next. I could see him clutching to dreams and showing up at nationals for the next four years with or without a coach.

 

[IcyEdges]

And that is the key. Things change fast. USFSA joined team Jason pretty early and pretty fully. I would agree Jeremy gets more attention than Max, but part of that is he brings more drama.

We are also looking at four years till next Olympics not later this season. It makes sense that now they will be focusing on younger skaters. Last year when Jeremy had a reasonable chance to go to the Olympics again, a bit more attention made sense. Now, things are different.

I don't really get the lack of love for Max. I am just going to leave it there.

What are all of you smoking? The USFS jumps on whatever the "potential" next hot thing is for them. They did the same thing with Max back when he lucked into winning Nationals a few years back. They then realized better jump off that train quickly when it came known it was a once and done and he was more of a choreographic mess and zamboni than a "quad machine."

 

[centerpt1]

I think something doesn't click with Jeremy, he is in a sort of bubble that I think Jason and/or Yuka created. They coddle him and stroke his ego and it really isn't helping him. Yes, I agree his music and costume are dreary. His trademark stare into the distant clouds and the sappiness of his programs are tiresome, they all seem the same after a while.

At this stage in his career he should be going for everything, pushing harder and getting on the podiums. This isn't new to him, he is a very well seasoned skater. He seems to have stagnated and when that happens it is time to step away.

ETA: Just for the record I am not a Jason Brown fan, I have nothing against him but I have to see more of his skating to become a fan.

Actually, I think he is finally at a place in his career where it's a team situation. I don't see him being coddled at all. I think he is trying to do the best he can with the body he has. I think he chose to go with traditional programs this year to emphasize his strengths. I also think he has been focusing on learning and growing into the programs, as well as retooling the jumps, - and the spins/steps got less practice/focus.

While I believe he wanted a good showing on the GP so he'd have support if he went to worlds, his #1 focus is being at his best for Nationals, and Worlds, should he go.

I never can figure out how people can make up things like he's being coddled. He's a hard worker, who has looked with his team at what improvements needed to be made and tried to set a plan that would give him the best chance at success. Do you really think he would choose to re-tool jumps at 29 if he was coddled? Would he continue to push creative choreography if he was coddled? For many years he was one of the few US men with a quad (that actually put it in programs). Now more men have that-but still, not coddled.

Sometimes you try every which way, and despite blood, sweat, and tears- you don't reach your goals.

So you try again another way.

Not coddled- determined.

 

[StitchMonkey]

What are all of you smoking? The USFS jumps on whatever the "potential" next hot thing is for them. They did the same thing with Max back when he lucked into winning Nationals a few years back. They then realized better jump off that train quickly when it came known it was a once and done and he was more of a choreographic mess and zamboni than a "quad machine."

Well mostly cannabis since it is legal in my state. I would say we are in agreement that they jump on the new potential, as they have done with Jason. Jeremy somehow seems to cling on even if he is not new. I think that ship has sailed. You may be right that they lost faith in Max, so maybe they wanted to send someone with some recent experience to the Olympics so Jeremy was useful to them. They kinda got lucky with the "potential" game last year with Jason. He has "potential" both as a skater and as a celebrity.

I would not call Max a Zamboni. . . he turns things into doubles more often than he falls. He is a bit too much of a gambler I think. Don't know if USFSA thinks the same and is against it, but who knows. For me I am more surprised that fans don't enjoy him. Or maybe people just get the impression fans don't like him. I see more people saying he is unpopular than people complaining about him.

 

[Sandpiper]

What are all of you smoking? The USFS jumps on whatever the "potential" next hot thing is for them. They did the same thing with Max back when he lucked into winning Nationals a few years back. They then realized better jump off that train quickly when it came known it was a once and done and he was more of a choreographic mess and zamboni than a "quad machine."

That's uncalled for. Max at least came back with a GP medal this season, which Jeremy hasn't done. It's hard to call someone human zamboni when the alternative is Jeremy Abbott. While I'm not a fan of Max's Gladiator, I appreciate he's doing something different in both programs, instead of the same mopey, lovelorn programs of Abbott, Miner, Dornbush, Farris... Seriously, don't we have enough of those?

 

[Tavi...]

*snort* In what world?! Puh-lease. The USFSA wouldn't dare hold down beloved Jeremy - they'd probably even think it made a nice story, the old man having one last shot at the World medal. They'd rather put fan-beloved Jeremy on that World team than fan-hated Max.

What are you smoking? Go have a look at the pre-season NBC promos last year. Jeremy got wayyyyyyy more air-time than the reigning National Champion (and the reigning silver medallist got none!) It's Max who won't get the help - Max and Josh won't get any help, people hate Max, and Josh is practically invisible. Josh didn't get any help the year he deserved bronze over Jeremy.



Poor Arsenio! That was a short-lived comeback.

Karne: one of the reasons USFS may focus on Jason & Jeremy more than Max & Josh is because they seem to have more drawing power. Jeremy has 48 thousand followers on Twitter. Jason has 46 thousand followers & also had a viral video with > 4.5 million hits. Max has just under 10 thousand Twitter followers, and Josh has about 3 thousand. This is not a criticism of Josh or Max in any way. But if you are trying to grow a business, you will put your marketing efforts behind products you think large numbers of potential customers will buy. Despite the fact that Max was the 2013 national champion & has powerful jumps - and despite the fact that Josh is great looking & a beautiful skater when healthy - neither of them have yet demonstrated that they have the capacity to connect with large numbers of people as Jason & even Jeremy do.

 

[StitchMonkey]

That's uncalled for. Max at least came back with a GP medal this season, which Jeremy hasn't done. It's hard to call someone human zamboni when the alternative is Jeremy Abbott. While I'm not a fan of Max's Gladiator, I appreciate he's doing something different in both programs, instead of the same mopey, lovelorn programs of Abbott, Miner, Dornbush, Farris... Seriously, don't we have enough of those?

And that is really something that Max does not get enough credit for. I think his programs this year are great examples of trying to grow as a skater but also appropriate for him. Both suit his style (Footloose would more so if he could enjoy it more - I want to see him skate that when he thinks no one is watching) but are different from one another. He is not exactly playing it safe or resting on what works in the past, I appreciate that.

 

[Sandpiper]

Karne: one of the reasons USFS may focus on Jason & Jeremy more than Max & Josh is because they seem to have more drawing power. Jeremy has 48 thousand followers on Twitter. Jason has 46 thousand followers & also had a viral video with > 4.5 million hits. Max has just under 10 thousand Twitter followers, and Josh has about 3 thousand. This is not a criticism of Josh or Max in any way. But if you are trying to grow a business, you will put your marketing efforts behind products you think large numbers of potential customers will buy. Despite the fact that Max was the 2013 national champion & has powerful jumps - and despite the fact that Josh is great looking & a beautiful skater when healthy - neither of them have yet demonstrated that they have the capacity to connect with large numbers of people as Jason & even Jeremy do.

But Twitter followers doesn't exactly indicate who would have good international success. Both Jason (as much as I love him) and Jeremy have technical or psychological blocks that really eat into their scores. If Max were more consistent, I think pushing him would make a lot of sense; he's the one with the requisite technical arsenal, and even if the judges never end up loving him, I think some politics could get his PCS up from rock bottom. But frankly, even Max struggles to eek out a 4-3, which most of the Russian and Japanese men (even the 30-year-olds) can do with ease. Perhaps, if Max ups his tech and consistency, he would get more focus.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Karne: one of the reasons USFS may focus on Jason & Jeremy more than Max & Josh is because they seem to have more drawing power. Jeremy has 48 thousand followers on Twitter. Jason has 46 thousand followers & also had a viral video with > 4.5 million hits. Max has just under 10 thousand Twitter followers, and Josh has about 3 thousand. This is not a criticism of Josh or Max in any way. But if you are trying to grow a business, you will put your marketing efforts behind products you think large numbers of potential customers will buy. Despite the fact that Max was the 2013 national champion & has powerful jumps - and despite the fact that Josh is great looking & a beautiful skater when healthy - neither of them have yet demonstrated that they have the capacity to connect with large numbers of people as Jason & even Jeremy do.

Jeremy and Jason are also more active on Twitter than the others mentioned. Which likely adds to more followers. For the men mentioned "figure skater" is their career. Interacting with fans, in order to help the sport make money, is part of the job. Jeremy and Jason seem to understand that aspect of the job pretty well. By being active on Twitter skaters make it easier for fans to follow the sport and be fans of the sport.

 

[ice coverage]

What are all of you smoking? The USFS jumps on whatever the "potential" next hot thing is for them. They did the same thing with Max back when he lucked into winning Nationals a few years back. They then realized better jump off that train quickly when it came known it was a once and done and he was more of a choreographic mess and zamboni than a "quad machine."

What are you smoking? Since when does naming Max to the 2014 World team (instead of Jason) = jumping off the train?

Disagree with other things that others have said about Max as well.

When he was reigning national champ, he did receive good promotional support from USFS, IMO. He was sent to the two big USOC pre-Sochi media summits, for instance. Evan, Jeremy, and Ross were the only other men who were invited to one or both summits.

I would note also that Max was the only U.S. man -- other than Evan -- who attracted a big mainstream pre-Sochi sponsor.

Regarding social media followers:

Jason obviously is very popular -- four million YT hits do not lie.
But Max does not posts messages/photo/vids on Twitter and Instagram nearly as often as Jason, so it is somewhat apples and oranges to compare the numbers of their respective followers.
(Jeremy used to be quite the social media addict as well, although he has cut back since his heyday.)

And I do not agree that social media is part of the job description of an elite athlete.
Virtue/Moir's popularity in the real world was extremely high even though they chose to steer clear of social media. (They joined Twitter and Instagram only well after Sochi.)
​

My sense is that Max comes across to the public as a thoroughly likable human being -- as likable as Jason.
If Max captures another U.S. championship, I think he once again will be an effective ambassador for USFS. His personality and looks are very pleasing, and everyone loves a winner.

 

[Tavi...]

But Twitter followers doesn't exactly indicate who would have good international success. Both Jason (as much as I love him) and Jeremy have technical or psychological blocks that really eat into their scores. If Max were more consistent, I think pushing him would make a lot of sense; he's the one with the requisite technical arsenal, and even if the judges never end up loving him, I think some politics could get his PCS up from rock bottom. But frankly, even Max struggles to eek out a 4-3, which most of the Russian and Japanese men (even the 30-year-olds) can do with ease. Perhaps, if Max ups his tech and consistency, he would get more focus.

Twitter followers do not indicate who may have international success, but they do I ndicate who fans are presently connecting with. If USFS is "holding up" Jason - and I am not sure that they are - I think it would be because it would draw more fans to figure skating.

ETA I am not sure why you think Jason has a psychological block - he strikes me as extremely healthy mentally.