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if olympic glory is what you're after maybe you don't need it to pay off in other races?
Ban on Carolina Kostner Over
- Thread starter cruzceleste
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if olympic glory is what you're after maybe you don't need it to pay off in other races?
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- Feb 23, 2014
Most of the articles has cited the fact that Carolina missed the oppointment when CONI wanted to question her (I think this was the week of her show), it was said that she didn´t actually asked for the citation to be moved, she just missed... I´m guessing this is one of the other infractions...
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- Jan 11, 2014
Thank you for the link and the additional info!
And this is what I hate the most about the "doping war" (together with the different bans for the same faults). The athlete is only the easiest target and in many circumstances he even doesn't know what he's taking and what are their effects. (Obviously there are also many cases in which they're totally conscious of it, see Tyson Gay and in this case Alex Schwazer). I'm still shocked anytime I read about female athletes who had to change their gender in consequence of drug consumption. If they knew what they were taking, do you think they would agree?
There's another thing no one wants to say but often athletes are used by the pharmaceutical industry to test new substances, but usually this industry is made by majors and pretty no one is so crazy to bring a suit against them.
And now for what will be the MOST CONTROVERSIAL and UNPOPULAR post in this thread: Why is it that Kostner shouldn't receive a harsh sentence for interfering in a doping test on her boyfriend, yet Tonya Harding was stripped of her national title and banned from figure skating for life when her crime was not going to the FBI as soon as she found out what Jeff Gihooly planned and did to Nancy Kerrigan AFTER THE FACT. I believe Tonya. If you read anything about her, particularly "The Tonya Tapes", her answers are consistent and mirror what most abused women say about the men that abused them and the post traumatic stress disorder they suffer. Fire away...
You believe her but obviously the public and court did not believe her, which is why she got such a harsh sentence. On the other hand, it has not been proven yet that she interfered with the appointment. She did not dope and the doping had nothing to do with the sport of figure skating, so I don't see why she should be handed such a harsh sentence when it hasn't been proven beyond reasonable doubt that she had any involvement at all. Some articles are saying she confessed and some are saying she denies any involvement, until facts are clear I think this is too harsh.
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From what I remember reading on the boards - it was something like that CONI scheduled the appointment to fit her schedule and then like last minute she said that she wasn't coming because of her show.
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- Feb 24, 2012
Like I said before, I think we have to be careful here. Kostner is innocent until proven guilty. Also, is she a party to a crime and thus basically equally culpable or did she do something after the fact/ illegal or infraction like Harding. Then there are many arguments that this is not about figure skating and thus should have no role in affecting results (like a convicted person who wins a medal - they can still win a OGM) or is this to be considered related to good sportsmanship and the actual sport and thus it does affect her status.
Doping Ban/Carolina Kostner
True. Kostner is innocent until proven guilty, but if she is guilty I think the punishment fits the crime. As for Harding's consistency, keep it in the context of interviews over a period of 20 years now, and yes, for the greater part, they are consistent. Also remember that someone who is so abused can and will block certain memories for the sake of one's sanity. I was horribly bullied and abused by a family member and fellow students K-12 and, yes, anxiety has clouded my memory regarding certain harsher instances. But she has always maintained that she did not know about the plot until after the fact, and that is the most important part in that case. To add, regarding Kostner, if what is being said is true, the infraction is accessory to a crime/to commit a crime, a punishable offense.
True. Kostner is innocent until proven guilty, but if she is guilty I think the punishment fits the crime. As for Harding's consistency, keep it in the context of interviews over a period of 20 years now, and yes, for the greater part, they are consistent. Also remember that someone who is so abused can and will block certain memories for the sake of one's sanity. I was horribly bullied and abused by a family member and fellow students K-12 and, yes, anxiety has clouded my memory regarding certain harsher instances. But she has always maintained that she did not know about the plot until after the fact, and that is the most important part in that case. To add, regarding Kostner, if what is being said is true, the infraction is accessory to a crime/to commit a crime, a punishable offense.
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- Mar 25, 2008
Though some countries have criminalized certain aspects of doping, WADA in itself is not enforcing a criminal code. Countries that have criminalized doping focus on possession, adminstration and trafficking of substances, not on evading WADA testers. So by this standard as well, Kostner is not an accessory to a crime. If she knew about Schwazer's doping and was enabling it, you might have a case. As things stand, however, Kostner at most committed an infraction.
I'm at a loss as to how anyone can consider a 4+ year ban a suitable punishment for lying to inspectors about someone else's location once. I'm even more :shocked: how anyone would think it's equivalent to involvement in a physical assault on one's strongest competitor and/or its coverup. I don't see it as a controversial opinion requiring ALL CAPS so much as a ridiculous comparison.
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- Feb 19, 2010
According to the Attorney general, "there's not enough proof that Kostner knew about Schwazer's doping".
It's a matter of sports justice, not regular justice.
Source: http://www.corriere.it/sport/14_dic...ia-a94f8a58-7d16-11e4-878f-3e2fb7c8ce61.shtml (in Italian)
It's a matter of sports justice, not regular justice.
Source: http://www.corriere.it/sport/14_dic...ia-a94f8a58-7d16-11e4-878f-3e2fb7c8ce61.shtml (in Italian)
Slightly off-topic but still a point of reference. I just say this MSN in regarding to Michael Phelps.
The 22-time Olympic medallist was banned for six months by USA Swimming in October after being charged with driving under the influence of alcohol (DUI), excessive speed and crossing the centre line while driving inside a tunnel.
So Phelps we endangering the lives of others and he got 6 months but it is unclear if "Koster knew about Schwazer's doping" and she gets several years. Different sports and different Federations but still ...
The 22-time Olympic medallist was banned for six months by USA Swimming in October after being charged with driving under the influence of alcohol (DUI), excessive speed and crossing the centre line while driving inside a tunnel.
So Phelps we endangering the lives of others and he got 6 months but it is unclear if "Koster knew about Schwazer's doping" and she gets several years. Different sports and different Federations but still ...
Harding was only banned from USFSA-run events, as coach and competitor. She was person non grata at professional events because other skaters did not want to work with her. I wonder if she could have gotten some work in foreign shows. She was fined $160,000. I wonder if she is still paying off that fine.
How much do you think Kostner should be fined, if that is part of her punishment?
How much do you think Kostner should be fined, if that is part of her punishment?
Tonya's ban was too harsh and so is Carolina's if it really is several years. Tonya went down a rather odd path, but suppose she didn't? Suppose she went back to school, married a decent man and led a good life after getting away from Gilooly (as in no crimes, controversies, etc)? She'd still be banned for life, never able to coach, judge or do anything like that. I believe a ban of several years was in order, but perhaps not a lifetime ban.
Carolina should perhaps be on probation or something for a few months or so, but if she didn't actually take the drugs, she should not face anything career ending.
I'm not one to cry sexism, but seeing the light sentence Phelps got and the complete lack of suspicion on Lance Armstrong for all those years, I really wonder.
Carolina should perhaps be on probation or something for a few months or so, but if she didn't actually take the drugs, she should not face anything career ending.
I'm not one to cry sexism, but seeing the light sentence Phelps got and the complete lack of suspicion on Lance Armstrong for all those years, I really wonder.
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- Oct 25, 2012
Personaly, I would have a fine as her punishment, rather than part of it.
My original suggestion was to have a fine equivalent of what she earned in prizemoney while she was with Alex. But, at that stage, I didn't realise that they had been together quite as long as they had.
So, my revised suggestion is to have a fine that is the equivalent of what she has earned in prizemoney since Alex was caught. So, that would be the 2012/13 and 2013/14 seasons.
If anybody knows where to find prizemoney figures and wants to work out how much that would be, I would be very interested to know!
While I can understand Tonya being given a life ban, it does seem rather harsh when you consider that a certain coach was not given similar treatment for what he was doing around the same time. (Given how often I've mentioned him the past few days, and my disbelief that he is back in the sport, I'm sure you know who I'm talking about).
You could be onto something, here. That coach I mentioned is MALE. Considering what he was banned for, any sane person would have expected it to be a life ban. But he was only given 3 years.
Exactly.
CaroLiza_fan
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She's 27, so it's not like she is Lipnitskaia or Gold that is still at an age where she is highly likely to make it to the next Olympics and be a podium contender.
Phelps situation: In the US Olympic sports like swimming get the benefit of mainstream media doesn't really care unless it's right before the Olympics. Look at Hope Solo and the NFL - there have been several NFL players that got suspended from their job pending the outcome of their criminal case for domestic violence. Hope Solo is currently representing the US in international competitions while she is waiting on her trial for domestic violence.
Lance Armstrong - there was a lot of suspicion around Armstrong, other cyclists claimed he doped several times, but I think most Americans and the US media were to in love with his story about coming back from cancer to win, etc. that everybody wanted ignore it.
I really think they are asking for a high ban for a negotiating point for getting her to accept something less.
While I don't dispute that Tonya was in a bad situation that affected her psychologically, I see at least two significant differences between the two cases
1) Carolina was not in on any plot. She says she did not know that her boyfriend was doping, and only found out that he was when he got a positive drug test. So she did not cover up for his doping use. She simply covered for him not being where he was supposed to be. He had said he would be in Racine, but then was at Carolina's place. When the WADA agents came looking for him, she covered for his lie, and then told him to go to Racine and get tested there. By the time she knew he was doping, WADA also knew, so there was no reason for her to go report him. Now, you could argue that she was stupid not to pick up on some of the clues, but sometimes love is blind and people only see their partners through rose-colored glasses.
2) She did not in any way benefit from his actions or her lie. In Tonya's case, she became national champion as a result of the attack. Upon finding out, she should have at reported it and acknowledged that her title was fraudulently obtained, even if she herself hadn't been part of the plot. And the plot had been orchestrated to give her a better chance at Olympic gold by keeping Nancy out of the Olympics altogether. In essence, there was cheating going on to give her a better chance of winning. In Carolina's case, there was no benefit to her. She did not gain a higher position or win a title that she might not have on otherwise. There was no cheating with respect to her skating.
To me, those are very significant differences. Also, as others have said, while Gilooly et al committed a crime, there was no criminal behavior here, and thus Carolina did not cover up a crime. That said, I do think Tonya was judged harshly, largely because she was somewhat of an outsider in the FS world and did not fit the princess mold. She was too rough around the edges. But I can understand why other skaters and the Fed would be extra leery of someone linked to an act of violence against a competitor, and I suspect that factored into the decision as well. I doubt that any skaters are afraid of Carolina because she lied about her boyfriend's whereabouts.
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- Mar 25, 2008
Kostner's results in those two seasons:Personaly, I would have a fine as her punishment, rather than part of it.
My original suggestion was to have a fine equivalent of what she earned in prizemoney while she was with Alex. But, at that stage, I didn't realise that they had been together quite as long as they had.
So, my revised suggestion is to have a fine that is the equivalent of what she has earned in prizemoney since Alex was caught. So, that would be the 2012/13 and 2013/14 seasons.
If anybody knows where to find prizemoney figures and wants to work out how much that would be, I would be very interested to know!
2012-13
1st, Golden Spin
1st, Europeans ($20,000)
1st, Challenge Cup
2nd, Worlds ($27,000)
2013-14
3rd, Cup of China ($9,000)
2nd, Cup of Russia ($13,000)
3rd, Europeans ($8,000)
3rd, Winter Olympics (4th in the team event)
3rd, Worlds ($18,000)
Golden Spin and the Challenge Cup would likely have had no prize money. I don't know what Italian Olympians received for medalling in Sochi. My guess is that much of her income in that period came from shows and sponsorships and a lot of it was used to fund her training. She is not the equivalent of a footballer or baseball player, who can pay a hefty fine without getting into financial difficulty.
And I see no reason why Kostner should be fined to that extent. It suggests that a two year ban effective immediately would have been a reasonable punishment, which I disagree with. I doubt such an option is on the table, though, so it doesn't matter.
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- Feb 19, 2010
50.000 € to bronze medalists.
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- Oct 25, 2012
Thank you buttercup.
So, adding that all together comes to just short of US$95,000 (or £60,975 STG in money I understand).
I realise that this is a lot of money, and that there is not a lot of money in figure skating.
But, given the alternative (4 1/3 year ban, and hence no income at all from skating), I think this is actually a fair compromise.
If she was allowed to pay in installments rather than a lump sum, she would not have to wipe out her life savings. She could use some of her savings to start off the re-payments, and then put future prizemoney and show earnings towards the fine.
So, although this sum may sound harsh, if the authorities handle it in the way I have described, it may not be too much of a financial burden on Caro.
And everybody would come out of it relatively happy. (Unlike the current proposals, where Caro's career would be finished, and the authorities would come out of it looking really unfair).
CaroLiza_fan
EDIT: Adding €50,000 (£39,429 STG) brings it up to £100,404, which does seem too much. So, let's just pretend she didn't get any money for it...
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