State of US Ladies in skating III: 2014-15 Season

[Gullygirl84]

Sorry, I was in the rink at SA and Cesario didn't deserve third over Gold based on the overall skating I saw between the two, even with the mistakes/less mistakes. Gold is CLEARLY better on the 2nd mark other than IN and presentation (not necessarily the execution piece of PE though) and has "better" content (ie deserving better GOE).

Nagasu is no where as close as so many people hope unless she makes a drastic improvement from where she was technically during the GP season. Many jumps were still clearly < and with a tough tech panel could be << and unless a miracle happens, she's going to get hit with < and << calls.

Edmunds' programs are a step back in construction and flow from last year. She's got a lot of jump telegraphing going on and she doesn't fly down the ice like Kostner; in fact she's looked pretty tentative in her outings with regard to speed and buy in of program construction.

I think with what we've seen, it's going to be a fight for the third spot but I'd say it's likely Hicks, even if she makes mistakes, because she's got "better" content than the other choices right now.

Even if Chen ends up on the podium, she's not going to Worlds, she's too young with the age changes this year.

Glenn is going to get held down based on her inconsistency and her inability to deliver a clean program.

Glenn

Yes, that's why I said that I wasn't sure whether she shouldn't have received third...I know that people said Samantha was really slow at SA.
As for Nagasu's <<, I mentioned in my post that they will be her downfall, I was more responding to the idea that Samantha has consistently been getting better scores than Polina and Mirai this season. The scores are closer if you take out Samantha's SA skate. I think the problem for Mirai is that she hasn't had one skate yet this season (like Polina at US classic and Samantha at SA) where she did really well. However, she seems to pull one comeback skate out of thin air at least once per season the past few years, maybe due to less strict technical panels, but I still think it could happen. Whether it's likely to is another story, but she's not the only one with issues.

 

[Jammers]

Why do US judges constantly keep propping up skaters who underotate their jumps and not mark them down for it? It doesn't help skaters like Mirai who gets killed by international judges who have no problem making those calls but the US judges never seem to learn. No wonder why so many US Ladies have problems with their jumps they don't get marked down at Nationals or even Sectional judges who are almost worse.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Why do US judges constantly keep propping up skaters who underotate their jumps and not mark them down for it? It doesn't help skaters like Mirai who gets killed by international judges who have no problem making those calls but the US judges never seem to learn. No wonder why so many US Ladies have problems with their jumps they don't get marked down at Nationals or even Sectional judges who are almost worse.

I think in the US we have a tradition of focusing more on the artistry and less on the technical, which is why you see someone like Courtney struggle at nationals but do quite well internationally. The USFSA is prone to making bone-headed decisions in regards to which skaters to back but hopefully they are paying attention to how the ladies are being scored by international judges so scores at nationals can more accurately reflect what they would be elsewhere.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Why do US judges constantly keep propping up skaters who underotate their jumps and not mark them down for it? It doesn't help skaters like Mirai who gets killed by international judges who have no problem making those calls but the US judges never seem to learn. No wonder why so many US Ladies have problems with their jumps they don't get marked down at Nationals or even Sectional judges who are almost worse.

To be honest, it doesn't make a huge difference with the lack of URs being called as artistry tends to be a decider -- PCS is the one that needs a crack down when skaters give flawed performances.. Generally skaters will be forgiven for UR calls and errors by getting monstrously higher PCS than other skaters who actually do well. It's exceedingly hard for a skater to do well at US Nationals unless you skate lights out, because a top-tier skater can opt for a 3-2 or a 3-3(fall) and get 5 points higher "reputation" PCS to make up for it.

 

[chuckm]

Whereas in Canada, one skater executes a 6-triple program with no 3/3 and is scored 136.94, while another skater completes a 7-triple program with a 3z+3t, but scores only 124.09; neither skater got a UR or an edge call. Talk about "reputation" PCS!

 

[Crossover]

Whereas in Canada, one skater executes a 6-triple program with no 3/3 and is scored 136.94, while another skater completes a 7-triple program with a 3z+3t, but scores only 124.09; neither skater got a UR or an edge call. Talk about "reputation" PCS!

You mean Kaetlyn Osmond and Gabrielle Daleman respectively at the nationals? The numbers are way too generous.

 

[TonyaHardlyEver]

Samantha has already hit her peak so has Mirai. That's just the way it is. Wagner will never get her difficulty back and for some reason won't focus on spins. Where are all the naturally talented skaters nowadays? Our ladies are way too conservative and cookie cutter IMO. Frank trying to reel in Gracie and make her a Kwan like skater when he is more of an athletic skater. I just don't see any of our ladies as anyone who is exciting or groundbreaking. It has been that way for a very long time. No new innovative moves or interesting positions like the Russian ladies. To make matters worse Gracie and Ashley are now using cheesy show tunes. They aren't raising the bar. In fact they are lowering it. I haven't seen an exciting program from the American gals since Hanna Millers LP at last years nationals. They need new choreographers and new costume designers too! Polina is still young but she looks awkward and a bit slow and tentative. I am not looking forward to this years Nationals at all. Even Scott Hamilton couldn't bring excitement to this snooze fest. Sorry but I think American skaters have become dull. Our best best is to revamp Gracie and allow her to show what a powerhouse skater she really is. Frank did a huge disservice to her skating, Her jumps look smaller and she looks slower and caged. I also find Tara and Johnny to be very boring commentators. They just don't get excited by the skaters the way Scott and Dick Button did. To the casual viewer, skating will look very boring. I agree that we need new faces but Tara and Johnny are not the answer. Trying to turn a Tonya Harding-like skater into a Peggy Flemming isn't the answer either. I am afraid that American skaters don't stand a chance against the Russian at the forthcoming Worlds and Olympics.

 

[janav]

Could I ask a silly question? How are American skaters funded? I would guess that corporate sponsors play huge role but does the federation fund the top skaters, too? I just wonder how it works elsewhere.

 

[ice coverage]

Could I ask a silly guestion? How are American skaters funded? I would guess that corporate sponsors play huge role but does the federation fund the top skaters, too? I just wonder how it works elsewhere.

No, only a very few Team USA skaters -- at the very top -- are fortunate enough to have corporate sponsors.
(And even for those lucky few, it is not clear how much money corporate sponsorships provide. Not necessarily enough to cover all skating-related costs.)

And only small amounts of funding are available through U.S. Figure Skating.

Long story short, the out-of-pocket costs are humongous (as we have discussed many times in other threads).

 

[concorde]

I was told this just yesterday by a very knowledgeable source. Since USFS has almost no money, so they have very little to give to the top skaters.

Envelope B skaters get about $5K. Envelope A skates get a bit more but not much. For the very top skates, USFS also provides them an agent who then works on getting them the corporate sponsors mentioned by golden. For Team USA, USFS does cover the travel costs (airfare, hotel, and food) for both the skater and one coach.

 

[ice coverage]

I was told this just yesterday by a very knowledgeable source. Since USFS has almost no money, so they have very little to give to the top skaters.

Envelope B skaters get about $5K. Envelope A skates get a bit more but not much. For the very top skates, USFS also provides them an agent who then works on getting them the corporate sponsors mentioned by golden. For Team USA, USFS does cover the travel costs (airfare, hotel, and food) for both the skater and one coach.

Thx, concorde. For janav's sake, I will add that this season's Envelope B skaters collectively have many GP medals and other international medals to their credit. And among the group are a former Olympian and former junior world champions.

• Mirai Nagasu; Samantha Cesario; Courtney Hicks
• Richard Dornbush; Adam Rippon; Joshua Farris
• Haven Denney & Brandon Frazier; Alexa Scimeca & Chris Knierim; Tarah Kayne & Daniel O'Shea
• Anastasia Cannuscio & Colin McManus; Alexandra Aldridge & Daniel Eaton; Kaitlin Hawayek & Jean-Luc Baker

http://usfigureskating.org/Athletes.asp?id=209​

Questions for concorde:

I assume you mean that USFS covers skater/coach travel costs to international assignments (other than skater costs for GPs and WTT that are covered by host federations).

Does USFS pay for the costs of competing at US Nats as well? I always have wondered.
And for Envelope C and D skaters, does USFS pay for the costs of competing at Sectionals and Regionals?​

 

[StitchMonkey]

I was told this just yesterday by a very knowledgeable source. Since USFS has almost no money, so they have very little to give to the top skaters.

Envelope B skaters get about $5K. Envelope A skates get a bit more but not much. For the very top skates, USFS also provides them an agent who then works on getting them the corporate sponsors mentioned by golden. For Team USA, USFS does cover the travel costs (airfare, hotel, and food) for both the skater and one coach.

That sounds a bit off.

As of 2011 it was reported that team A members were making $40,000.00 a year. Granted things can go down, but that seems like a massive amount is that short a period of time. Or a massive (unreasonably so) gap in team A and team B.

If the funding has gone down that much in that short a time, I would expect to be seeing more obvious signs of collapse.

 

[janav]

Thank you, golden411 and concorde . FS is indeed shaky lottery, least of all money-wise.

 

[concorde]

As of 2011 it was reported that team A members were making $40,000.00 a year. Granted things can go down, but that seems like a massive amount is that short a period of time. Or a massive (unreasonably so) gap in team A and team B.

I believe the $40,000 is what they get in endorsements lined up by the agent. My understanding is the USFS does not have that kind of money t0 give.

 

[concorde]

Questions for concorde:

I assume you mean that USFS covers skater/coach travel costs to international assignments (other than skater costs for GPs and WTT that are covered by host federations).

Does USFS pay for the costs of competing at US Nats as well? I always have wondered.
And for Envelope C and D skaters, does USFS pay for the costs of competing at Sectionals and Regionals?​

I did not get (or ask) for more details. The reference on travel costs was regarding international events, not domestic.

For both Regionals and Sectionals, the skater pays to enter both. If you reach Nationals, then there is no fee. I was told this by a mom awhile back whose son has gone in the past and is going again this year.

For Sectionals, the skater is on their own to find a hotel (USFS does not even reserve a room block). This was an issue at Easterns this year because of three large conferences that were the same weekend. I have not heard about problems finding a motel for the skaters that are going to Nationals.

Based on how tight things are at USFS, I doubt they pays for much for Envelope C and D skaters.

Another issue is that USFS pays the international travel costs associated with the Synchro Team USA. I'm not saying that they should not, but it is just a lot of plane tickets to purchase since USFS is on a tight budget.

 

[Mrs. P]

I looked up USFSA's 990 (which they have to file every year as a nonprofit). Now this is specifically the USFSA, not the foundation.

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2013/840/768/2013-840768715-0a0d3c8b-9.pdf

According to the 2012 990 (latest available), USFSA's revenues were $14,901,556 and expenses of $14,128,892. That's equals a net revenue of $775,664

Income includes:
*$4.9 million in USFSA membership fees
*$2.7 million from USFA events/sponsorships
*$2.9 million from licensing rights (to NBC and other stations)
*$1.4 million in contributions.


Now looking on the expense side
* $511k for salaries and wages
* $1.17 million for travel expenses

The biggest expense, however, is a category called "ATHLETE PROGRAM" The amount is $3.12 million. At the end of 2012, there were 65 pairs/single skaters in the USFSA team envelope program. If you divide that amount by 65 athletes, the average amount of athlete support would be $48,000. Of course Athlete program could include other things like purchasing team jackets or other types of team USA type support.

USFSA is hardly a rich organization,but it's not like we're looking at the PTA that has to conduct bake sales to function.

That said, even at $40,000, that's still well below athletes can spend in a given year.

 

[concorde]

According to the USFS website, the "athlete's program" includes the STARS development program, DREAM development program, and the Program Components camp was well as several other camps for Team USA. When you take those into account, the "funding" money available to top skates goes down.

Bottom line, top skaters do not get much funding from USFS so someone needs to supplement the training costs. That someone is either the skater's family or sponsors.

 

[Miss Ice]

I'm just ready to see Karen Chen to kick some butt soon.

*proceeds to knock on wood excessively*

 

[flying camel]

I'm just ready to see Karen Chen to kick some butt soon.

*proceeds to knock on wood excessively*

That would be nice if she could. But at this point I would be happy with any US lady standing up and lading the jumps consistently with confidence.

 

[ice coverage]

... Bottom line, top skaters do not get much funding from USFS so someone needs to supplement the training costs. That someone is either the skater's family or sponsors.

Thanks to concorde, Stitch, and Mrs. P for all of your informative posts.

For 2014-15, the USFS fact sheet says:

Throughout the 2014-15 season, U.S. Figure Skating will directly distribute more than $1 million to its athletes through training grants and financial assistance. The funding — distributed through the Athlete Support Program (ASUPP), the Synchronized Team Envelope Funding (STEF), the U.S. Figure Skating bonus program and the U.S. Figure Skating Memorial Fund — reaches novice, junior and senior skaters.
Funding from the Athlete Support Program and Synchronized Team Envelope Fund will assist more than 230 U.S. figure skaters and synchronized skaters who were selected to the 2014-15 team envelope.
http://usfigureskating.org/content/FactSheet.pdf (see p. 4)​

I assume the specific amount per skater would vary widely depending on the envelope/tier and discipline, but for an extremely crude metric, the average amount per skater would be on the order of several thousand dollars.
It's understandable that those on Team A presumably would receive significantly more than those on Team C.
But sad to think (for example) that some members of Team C had two senior GP assignments -- and training expenses prob. of similar magnitude to Team A's -- but received a much lower level of funding. hwell: