State of US Ladies in skating III: 2014-15 Season

[drivingmissdaisy]

But sad to think (for example) that some members of Team C had two senior GP assignments -- and training expenses prob. of similar magnitude to Team A's -- but received a much lower level of funding. hwell:

This is another reason why it would be good for the US judges to judge our championships closer to how they would be judged internationally. A skater like Courtney desperately needs someone on her team to help her with her refinement because she does everything needed to succeed, yet she gets held back at Nationals in favor of women who can't rotate their jumps. With a better national result she would be better positioned to succeed internationally, be able to get in a higher team envelope and have access to more money and additional coaching.

 

[chuckm]

I noticed for maybe the first time the tech team at Japanese Nationals were very strict with respect to URs and edge calls. Even the winner Miyahara got quite a few---3z<+3t< and 3f! in the SP and 3f!<, 3z<, and 2a<+3t in the FS. After the SP, she changed her layout in the FS because of the URs in the SP.

I think the Japanese Fed got tough on tech because so many Japanese ladies get dinged internationally, especially for URs, and they want the ladies and their coaches to seriously address those issues.

I hope the US tech teams stop giving US ladies free passes on URs and give them TES scores closer to those they get from international tech teams. If they want to give generous, pumped-up scores, go ahead and play with PCS. But it isn't fair to the ladies who do rotate their jumps that ladies who don't get the same credit, finish higher, and earn more funding.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I hope the US tech teams stop giving US ladies free passes on URs and give them TES scores closer to those they get from international tech teams. If they want to give generous, pumped-up scores, go ahead and play with PCS. But it isn't fair to the ladies who do rotate their jumps that ladies who don't get the same credit, finish higher, and earn more funding.

This would be a good start. However, it's also a mistake for the judges to treat PCS as strictly an artistic mark because it isn't. Courtney earns good PCS also and it's solely on the strength of transitions; she isn't artistic at all. However, this is the direction that skating is headed so it would be good for the USFSA to recognize that.

 

[Scovies]

This is another reason why it would be good for the US judges to judge our championships closer to how they would be judged internationally. A skater like Courtney desperately needs someone on her team to help her with her refinement because she does everything needed to succeed, yet she gets held back at Nationals in favor of women who can't rotate their jumps. With a better national result she would be better positioned to succeed internationally, be able to get in a higher team envelope and have access to more money and additional coaching.

Agreed. I wonder if her two 4th-places finishes on the GP circuit might make them stand up and take notice. Besides Ashley and Gracie, she's had the best GP season of any American lady.

 

[jagragold]

Ashley, Gracie and Courtney. That should be the team. But don't miss Amber Glenn.

 

[chuckm]

Amber turned 15 in October, so she is too young to compete at 4CC or Worlds.

 

[Chris_E]

Ashley, Gracie and Courtney. That should be the team. But don't miss Amber Glenn.

I think there is a strong possibility of this happening. I think it will just depend on if Courtney lands the jumps when it counts. It would be nearly impossible for her to finish outside of the top 3 if she lands all her jumps cleanly.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It would be nearly impossible for her to finish outside of the top 3 if she lands all her jumps cleanly.

If Mirai doesn't fall it's entirely possible for the judges to ignore her < and place her in 3rd, especially with Tom Z on her team.

 

[Chris_E]

If Mirai doesn't fall it's entirely possible for the judges to ignore her < and place her in 3rd, especially with Tom Z on her team.

True and I did hesitate to make that statement but Courtney has amazing powerful jumps-when she lands them-that she should get higher GOE's that Mirai if judging is fair. I also don't expect Gracie, Ashley and Mirai to all land 7 triple long programs and clean shorts. Anything can happen at Nationals. I'll be there and look forward to the excitement and roller coaster ride it can be.

 

[chuckm]

If Mirai doesn't fall it's entirely possible for the judges to ignore her < and place her in 3rd, especially with Tom Z on her team.

Mirai won no medals in the GP this year because of those URs. She had a 6th place at SA, and a 4th place in a very depleted field at CoR. OTOH, Courtney was one of the few US skaters to receive NO UR calls in either of her two highly competitive GP events; she placed 4th in both.

As far as PCS scores are concerned, Courtney received scores of 56.34 and 56.06 for her two GP free skates, compared to Mirai's 52.73 and 54.38. Although Courtney doesn't display much in the way of musicality, she is very fast and sure in her movements, while Mirai is slow, somewhat labored, and is facially expressionless.

I would be very surprised if the US tech team ignored Mirai's URs this year. Yes, they did so last year and that resulted in a medal, but then she was denied a place on the Olympic and World teams because of her 'body of work'. The uproar over that caused a publicity nightmare for USFS. Since then Mirai's skating has not improved despite her new coach.

You have to consider that Worlds will be in Boston in 2016 and it will be very important to keep the 3 ladies places for that event. Mirai's best GP total score was 165, which would have placed her 13th at 2014 Worlds. Does USFS really want to send a skater to Worlds 2015 who has no realistic chance of placing at least in the top 10?

 

[Jammers]

I don't see any combination other then Gracie and Ashley keeping those 3 spots for Worlds 2016. Only if Polina regains form would the 3rd US lady help if Gold or Wagner falter.

 

[jagragold]

Polina as well should be in the team. But she has to improve.

 

[flying camel]

Polina and Courtney need complete makeovers. Hair, makeup costuming, the works!

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

As far as PCS scores are concerned, Courtney received scores of 56.34 and 56.06 for her two GP free skates, compared to Mirai's 52.73 and 54.38. Although Courtney doesn't display much in the way of musicality, she is very fast and sure in her movements, while Mirai is slow, somewhat labored, and is facially expressionless.

I hope the USFSA takes note of this. Last year Mirai beat Courtney's PCS by almost 9 points in the LP at Nationals. Inexplicably, Mirai won the TR score 7.18 to 6.04.

 

[R.D.]

I would be very surprised if the US tech team ignored Mirai's URs this year. Yes, they did so last year and that resulted in a medal, but then she was denied a place on the Olympic and World teams because of her 'body of work'. The uproar over that caused a publicity nightmare for USFS. Since then Mirai's skating has not improved despite her new coach.

Yes it did, but you know what?

How quickly do fans forget what happened in 2013 when a mediocre Wagner won over a practically flawless Gold - in the FS? That's right, they were all over Wagner telling her that she did not deserve the win, etc. In other words, it was a controversial RESULT. Or, more notably, in 2009 when Czisny *somehow* ended up winning the title with a mediocre skate despite not one, but TWO other skaters going clean? Yup, you guessed it - they went after her as well.

What I'm trying to say is this: Some posters seem to be assuming that none of this would have happened had the tech panel just "marked Nagasu's URs correctly" and "placed her 4th, eliminating the need to make a top 3 exception". Well, do you seriously NOT think there would have been a similar uproar if a seemingly clean Nagasu got placed under a sub-par Wagner with two falls? Based on what happened in 2013 they still would have eaten her (Wagner) alive, saying she was "gifted" the 3rd spot and didn't truly deserve it. It's happened in the past, after all...The situation would have been different, yes, but I'd bet anyone any amount they'd like that there still would have been controversy. It just would have been a controversial RESULT as opposed to a controversial DECISION.

The USFS was really between a rock and a hard place on this one. Wagner too, although arguably undeservedly so. Of course, if Wagner had not fallen in the first place, that's the only way none of this would have happened.

 

[R.D.]

Polina and Courtney need complete makeovers. Hair, makeup costuming, the works!

Or....perhaps they should just focus on landing their jumps, problem solved.

 

[Gullygirl84]

Or....perhaps they should just focus on landing their jumps, problem solved.

This! I'm cheering for Courtney this year and think she can make the podium, but she didn't do herself any favors last year by placing 16th in the SP at nationals.

 

[chuckm]

Yes it did, but you know what?

How quickly do fans forget what happened in 2013 when a mediocre Wagner won over a practically flawless Gold - in the FS? That's right, they were all over Wagner telling her that she did not deserve the win, etc. In other words, it was a controversial RESULT. Or, more notably, in 2009 when Czisny *somehow* ended up winning the title with a mediocre skate despite not one, but TWO other skaters going clean? Yup, you guessed it - they went after her as well.

Wagner did not beat Gold in the 2013 Nationals FS---Gold scored 132.49 to Wagner's 121.27, but that was just enough for Wagner to defend her title, because Wagner had won the SP with 67.57, while Gold was 9th in the SP with 54.08. There was some complaining about the result, but Wagner had been ill throughout the competition, and she had won silver at the GPF that fall, while Gold had struggled in her first GP season. There was little doubt that Wagner was a deserving US champion.

In 2009, Czisny had won the SP with 65.79, more than 5 points higher than her closest competitor, Rachel Flatt. Ashley Wagner actually won the FS with 115.00, but she was 12th in the SP with 50.28, so there was little chance of her making the podium unless the top 3 bombed. Rachel and Caroline Zhang both skated clean and scored 113.59 and 112.17. Czisny skated last and was unimpressive, with a fall and a doubled jump, but her score was boosted with huge PCS scores, and her third place 112.31 was enough for her to regain her title. Yes, there was grumbling about that result.

What I'm trying to say is this: Some posters seem to be assuming that none of this would have happened had the tech panel just "marked Nagasu's URs correctly" and "placed her 4th, eliminating the need to make a top 3 exception". Well, do you seriously NOT think there would have been a similar uproar if a seemingly clean Nagasu got placed under a sub-par Wagner with two falls? Based on what happened in 2013 they still would have eaten her (Wagner) alive, saying she was "gifted" the 3rd spot and didn't truly deserve it. It's happened in the past, after all...The situation would have been different, yes, but I'd bet anyone any amount they'd like that there still would have been controversy. It just would have been a controversial RESULT as opposed to a controversial DECISION.

Just because Wagner fell and Nagasu did not doesn't mean Nagasu skated clean---she did not fully rotate her jumps. Mirai also received very high PCS scores for the same kind of performance she has been giving over the past 3-4 years: expressionless face, no connection with music or audience. Yes, Mirai is very popular with US audiences, but they are remembering her as she was as a young skater, full of excitement and promise, which she showed back then in her skating. Sadly, that is the skater they see at the end of her performances, now, but no longer while she is skating.

USFS tech teams and judges have to rate the skaters on what they do on the ice, not on their popularity with the crowd or on some need to give a 'lifetime achievement' award. To do anything else is to court controversy and invite criticism.

 

[b-man]

Wagner did not beat Gold in the 2013 Nationals FS---Gold scored 132.49 to Wagner's 121.27, but that was just enough for Wagner to defend her title, because Wagner had won the SP with 67.57, while Gold was 9th in the SP with 54.08. There was some complaining about the result, but Wagner had been ill throughout the competition, and she had won silver at the GPF that fall, while Gold had struggled in her first GP season. There was little doubt that Wagner was a deserving US champion.

In 2009, Czisny had won the SP with 65.79, more than 5 points higher than her closest competitor, Rachel Flatt. Ashley Wagner actually won the FS with 115.00, but she was 12th in the SP with 50.28, so there was little chance of her making the podium unless the top 3 bombed. Rachel and Caroline Zhang both skated clean and scored 113.59 and 112.17. Czisny skated last and was unimpressive, with a fall and a doubled jump, but her score was boosted with huge PCS scores, and her third place 112.31 was enough for her to regain her title. Yes, there was grumbling about that result.



Just because Wagner fell and Nagasu did not doesn't mean Nagasu skated clean---she did not fully rotate her jumps. Mirai also received very high PCS scores for the same kind of performance she has been giving over the past 3-4 years: expressionless face, no connection with music or audience. Yes, Mirai is very popular with US audiences, but they are remembering her as she was as a young skater, full of excitement and promise, which she showed back then in her skating. Sadly, that is the skater they see at the end of her performances, now, but no longer while she is skating.

USFS tech teams and judges have to rate the skaters on what they do on the ice, not on their popularity with the crowd or on some need to give a 'lifetime achievement' award. To do anything else is to court controversy and invite criticism.

As far as the 2013 National Champiionships, you say Wagner deserved it because she had a strong GP season, and besides, she was ill that week. Wagner was held up in the FS, with another multiple fall performance. When talking about Nagasu, you saiy she should be scored for what she did on the ice that day, but Wagner should be scored for what she did on the GP circuit months earlier. You have different standards for different skaters.

As far as Nagasu's musicality and PCS, I think Nagasu is many times more in tune with the music than Hicks, who appears oblivious to the music. As far as Nagasu's inflated PCS, most skaters at Nationals have inflated PCS, yet your broken record has only complaints about one skaters inflated PCS.

 

[Scovies]

As far as the 2013 National Champiionships, you say Wagner deserved it because she had a strong GP season, and besides, she was ill that week. Wagner was held up in the FS, with another multiple fall performance. When talking about Nagasu, you saiy she should be scored for what she did on the ice that day, but Wagner should be scored for what she did on the GP circuit months earlier. You have different standards for different skaters.

I'll back chuckm up on this one. Wagner wasn't a deserving champion because of her GP performances. She was a deserving champion because she had more than a 13-point lead over Gold after the SP, which was the first thing he (she?) pointed out.

As far as Nagasu's musicality and PCS, I think Nagasu is many times more in tune with the music than Hicks, who appears oblivious to the music. As far as Nagasu's inflated PCS, most skaters at Nationals have inflated PCS, yet your broken record has only complaints about one skaters inflated PCS.

Everyone gets inflated scores at Nationals, but I personally still thought Mirai's were too high in comparison to everyone else (except Gracie Gold, who I think was a bit overscored even when taking inflation into account). I don't know how Mirai's skate deserved mid-to-high 7s on anything other than Performance/Execution. Heck, she outscored Samantha Cesario's fabulous (and clean!) Carmen on every single aspect of PCS. I'll give her SS, but Transitions, Choreography, and Interpretation? Really?