State of US Ladies in skating III: 2014-15 Season

[drivingmissdaisy]

As far as Nagasu's musicality and PCS, I think Nagasu is many times more in tune with the music than Hicks, who appears oblivious to the music. As far as Nagasu's inflated PCS, most skaters at Nationals have inflated PCS, yet your broken record has only complaints about one skaters inflated PCS.

The problem isn't really inflated PCS at Nationals, but that scores are inflated differently for different skaters that do not reflect how they are scored internationally. Nagasu is absolutely more musical than Hicks, but that's only a small part of what PCS measures. Mirai outscoring Courtney on TR is crazy; it isn't even a quality vs quantity argument because Mirai's free program last year was empty. Courtney has to skate two good programs to make her case for the world team because the judges aren't going to reward her unless she hits her jumps.

 

[R.D.]

There was little doubt that Wagner was a deserving US champion.

The point I'm trying to make here is NOT whether Wagner was a "deserving" champion or not (which, BTW, is a matter of opinion) - it's that the end result invited criticism and hate remarks toward Wagner...which is exactly what happened (again) upon her selection to the US team. Different scenarios, same result.

Place Wagner 4th and put her on the team anyway? Controversy and hate across the boards and on SM. Place Wagner with visible errors 3rd ahead of Nagasu whose errors were FAR less obvious? Based on what happened in 2009 and 2013, hard to see there NOT being controversy anyway. This is REGARDLESS of what "should" have happened - I'm saying that Wagner very likely would still have been blasted for being on the team.

Just because Wagner fell and Nagasu did not doesn't mean Nagasu skated clean---she did not fully rotate her jumps.

Again, the point is missed. To the casual observer, a UR jump is much less distracting and much easier to overlook than a fall. Therefore, it would APPEAR to these people that she went clean, and a stink would then be raised. It doesn't matter whether it "should have" happened or not, rules be damned...they would have gone after Wagner for what appeared to be an "undeserving" 3rd place anyway. Rules are irrelevant - did the USFS having disclaimers on team selection stop people from crying foul? No.

 

[R.D.]

Courtney has to skate two good programs to make her case for the world team because the judges aren't going to reward her unless she hits her jumps.

...which is kinda the way it should be, no? :scratch:

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

...which is kinda the way it should be, no? :scratch:

Well, other skaters get rewarded despite < jumps.

 

[chuckm]

Yes, and that is my point. If USFS is going to reward Mirai with a medal when she is not rotating her jumps, then leave her off the Olympic and World teams, what purpose is served by giving her a medal? All it did for Mirai was leave her feeling angry, horribly disappointed, and rejected by USFS. Ashley was forced to deal with the fury of Mirai's fans and supporters.

If USFS again rewards Mirai at 2015 Nationals with a medal and out of some sense of obligation sends her to Worlds 2015 knowing she won't place well because of her URs, that would deprive another more worthy skater of the chance to skate at Worlds. I don't see the fairness of that scenario, either. If anything, Mirai's 'body of work' hasn't improved one whit since last year. Since her 2014 Nationals bronze, she hasn't had another podium placement, but has received multiple UR calls at every event.

 

[b-man]

Yes, and that is my point. If USFS is going to reward Mirai with a medal when she is not rotating her jumps, then leave her off the Olympic and World teams, what purpose is served by giving her a medal? All it did for Mirai was leave her feeling angry, horribly disappointed, and rejected by USFS. Ashley was forced to deal with the fury of Mirai's fans and supporters.

If USFS again rewards Mirai at 2015 Nationals with a medal and out of some sense of obligation sends her to Worlds 2015 knowing she won't place well because of her URs, that would deprive another more worthy skater of the chance to skate at Worlds. I don't see the fairness of that scenario, either. If anything, Mirai's 'body of work' hasn't improved one whit since last year. Since her 2014 Nationals bronze, she hasn't had another podium placement, but has received multiple UR calls at every event.

Well, if we are only going to send skaters to Worlds who we know will do well, then I guess we will only be sending two skaters this year. Neither Edmunds, Hicks, Nagasu, Cesario medaled on the GP this year, and all have flaws which they haven't fixed. Hicks may be slightly better than last year, but still doesn't have a GP medal with Kim, Asada, Kostner and Suzuki gone leaving a depleted field. I would argue Edmunds, thus far, is significantly worse than last year, and Nagasu and Cesario are also worse than last year. I don't mind you bashing Nagasu, as long as you bash everyone else who isn't performing well, which is everyone but Gold and Wagner. If you are only going to bash one skater, then you and I are going to tangle. Outside of Gold and Wagner, no one has yet made a case to be sent to Worlds.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Well, if we are only going to send skaters to Worlds who we know will do well, then I guess we will only be sending two skaters this year. Neither Edmunds, Hicks, Nagasu, Cesario medaled on the GP this year, and all have flaws which they haven't fixed. Hicks may be slightly better than last year, but still doesn't have a GP medal with Kim, Asada, Kostner and Suzuki gone leaving a depleted field. I would argue Edmunds, thus far, is significantly worse than last year, and Nagasu and Cesario are also worse than last year. I don't mind you bashing Nagasu, as long as you bash everyone else who isn't performing well, which is everyone but Gold and Wagner. If you are only going to bash one skater, then you and I are going to tangle. Outside of Gold and Wagner, no one has yet made a case to be sent to Worlds.

You are correct. Most of us just want to see the skaters judged like they would be internationally. If Mirai stands up and rotates her jumps, she should get a great score. But if she < a lot of jumps and those very serious errors are overlooked, then we are sending a skater to Worlds who isn't going to score nearly as well as one who can actually do the jumps. A < is every bit as bad as a fall and the US judges should scrutinize rotations the same as their international counterparts.

 

[chuckm]

The difference between Edmunds and Nagasu is that Edmunds is 16 and this is her first full year of competition,. Polina has had problems with her SP, and it seems to be nerves. Nagasu is 21 and has been a senior skater for 8 years. Mirai's problem over the years has consistently been underrotation---she struggles to get through a planned 6-triple free skate, and in each of her two GP events this year has actually rotated only 3 triples. Polina gets the occasional UR call, but she did complete 6 fully rotated triples in the free skate of each of her two GP events.

I don't believe in 'bashing' a skater who is just starting out her career and has actually performed reasonably well, at least in her freeskates. If nerves are the problem, more experience will help. After all, she has been on the senior circuit for just this one fall season.

 

[b-man]

The difference between Edmunds and Nagasu is that Edmunds is 16 and this is her first full year of competition,. Polina has had problems with her SP, and it seems to be nerves. Nagasu is 21 and has been a senior skater for 8 years. Mirai's problem over the years has consistently been underrotation---she struggles to get through a planned 6-triple free skate, and in each of her two GP events this year has actually rotated only 3 triples. Polina gets the occasional UR call, but she did complete 6 fully rotated triples in the free skate of each of her two GP events.

I don't believe in 'bashing' a skater who is just starting out her career and has actually performed reasonably well, at least in her freeskates. If nerves are the problem, more experience will help. After all, she has been on the senior circuit for just this one fall season.

Mirai has an underroation problem? Glad you told me. You probably have 100+ posts over the last 3 years announcing to the GS community that Mirai has a UR Problem. And since you seldom criticize anyone else, she must be the only skater in the world with a UR problem. As far as Edmunds, she is the one on the last Olympic/World team, not Nagasu. Someone who made the Olympic team is both old enough and experienced enough to receive criticism. But then, that wouldn't be much fun for you, bashing someone other than Nagasu.

 

[mskater93]

b-man, if it makes you feel better, I think Edmunds ALSO has an under-rotation problem. She missed a JW opportunity because of it.

 

[b-man]

But if she < a lot of jumps and those very serious errors are overlooked, then we are sending a skater to Worlds who isn't going to score nearly as well as one who can actually do the jumps. A < is every bit as bad as a fall and the US judges should scrutinize rotations the same as their international counterparts.

There seems to be a myth that Mirai underrotated many jumps at Nationals last year, and her bronze was entirely due to judges overlooking her UR's. I think its a sad state when posters just assume if its Mirai, then the jumps must be underrotated. I am not a good judge myself, so I will quote a few posts from the Nagasu thread.

Poster Samson says, " Because there have been several posters who've said as much about her skates, I went back and watched Nationals and looked at the jumps in super slo-mo. While I can definitely see most jumps she underrotates this fall, I was definitely not catching them in real time at Nationals, and I figured since several posters are claiming she got credit when she shouldn't have, but I'm not seeing it, I owed it to myself to watch in super slo-mo so I could finally see what others did.

And the thing is, the only triple in super slo-mo I would even question that got credit is the triple toe in the axel-toe combo (and then of course the opening flip which even my eyes could catch). Everything else was around and clean. I watched multiple times to make sure that it wasn't wishful thinking, and yeah-those jumps are clean. I'll even admit there are a few as she's coming down I think "shes not going to get that" and yet somehow when her blade hits the ice it pointing in the right direction, there's no hook. . . . . . . . I'm just saying, those jumps were definitely rotated."

Poster randomfan follows: "Agreed, those jumps were fully rotated."

Long time poster Kwanatic follows: "I would agree with that."

 

[b-man]

b-man, if it makes you feel better, I think Edmunds ALSO has an under-rotation problem. She missed a JW opportunity
because of it.

Thanks, mskater

 

[yyyskate]

my SA live impression about Mirai's jump ice tracing, her solo jumps usually is rotated, 2A-3T is borderline. but if she got the reputation, the judges probably won't give it her, depends on the judge. But I think if Mirai pushes it, she can totally make her 2A-3T jump clean. 3F-3T not very sure. I wouldn't say Mirai's under-rotation problem is the worst among all the ladies I watched live.
And, if Mirai really lands her 7 triple program with 1,2 under-rotation, I still think she is competitive at least in US.

 

[chuckm]

The international tech team at Skate America called 4 of her 7 triple jumps underrotated:

3f+3t<, 2a+3t<, 3z!<, 3s+2t+2lo<, 3f<, 3lo, 2a

Tech Controller Alexander LAKERNIK RUS
Tech Spec Jae-Eun CHUNG KOR
Asst Tech Spec David KIRBY USA

IMO the tech team is more qualified to determine URs than any audience member or skater fan; the tech team has full use of slomo replay. I was at Skate America too, and I wasn't surprised at all that she got those UR calls. And Mirai got the same calls on the same jumps at Cup of Russia, except the solo flip was downgraded.

BTW, Polina Edmunds has had only one triple in the FS called UR at each of her two GP events, her solo 3z. Her other 6 triples were OK.

 

[jenaj]

Mirai just needs to land her jumps. Skaters can still do well with a few under-rotations. Look at the new Japanese national champ. Polina is not ready for prime time. The international judges gave her the PCS she deserved this year. She should have been left off the Oly and World teams, just like Japan left off just up from juniors Umo. Polina also needs better packaging. And she needs to fire her mother as her coach!

 

[yyyskate]

Tech Controller Alexander LAKERNIK RUS
That guy is also the tech controller at Sochi Lady's long, who ignored Sot,Lip's flutz, Sot's under-rotated 3T, give lv4 to Sot's lv3 stsq, give Yuna's lv4 stsq lv3, give Mao's clean 3F-3L under-rotation call, whereas under-rotated 3A is not called etc.
Actually, I was quite amused when I actually saw that guy in SA.
just saying, no intention to go back to Sochi scandal at all.

 

[dorispulaski]

Mirai and Edmunds and most of the other US Ladies should all be grateful that they did not, at last US Nationals, and will not, at this US Nationals, have to face the technical panel that judged the ladies SP at Japanese Nationals 2014-2015.

The international judging community is not going to be loosening standards for UR's any time soon. If anything, it is going to be tightening them. It is not just Russian technical specialists who are sticklers for fully rotated jumps.

I would hope the US nationals judges would be no more and no less stringent on UR's than the international standard.

 

[yyyskate]

Mirai and Edmunds and most of the other US Ladies should all be grateful that they did not, at last US Nationals, and will not, at this US Nationals, have to face the technical panel that judged the ladies SP at Japanese Nationals 2014-2015.

The international judging community is not going to be loosening standards for UR's any time soon. If anything, it is going to be tightening them. It is not just Russian technical specialists who are sticklers for fully rotated jumps.

I would hope the US nationals judges would be no more and no less stringent on UR's than the international standard.

all my comments above is just to approve one point, that the so-called (professional, trained-eye) tech calls can be iffy (international or domestic). and that particular judge happens to be a Russian and happens to be the tec specialist in both Sochi lady FS, and 2014SA.
EDIT: i also think reputation (of skater or a particular jump such as -3Lo) is essential in how judges give out under-rotation calls.(as well as political agenda )

 

[brightphoton]

Hey, I don't know if Chastity B from the Golden Skate YouTube channel counts as an American lady skater, heh

but I'm kind of curious about this Adult Nationals her last skit was based on. What is Adult Nationals? Is it the same thing as the normal nationals, only instead of novice, intermediate, junior and senior, it's adult? I also want to see Chastity skate

 

[jenaj]

my SA live impression about Mirai's jump ice tracing, her solo jumps usually is rotated, 2A-3T is borderline. but if she got the reputation, the judges probably won't give it her, depends on the judge. But I think if Mirai pushes it, she can totally make her 2A-3T jump clean. 3F-3T not very sure. I wouldn't say Mirai's under-rotation problem is the worst among all the ladies I watched live.
And, if Mirai really lands her 7 triple program with 1,2 under-rotation, I still think she is competitive at least in US.

What would you think about Mirai doing two 2A-3Ts and ditching the 3-3, like Miyahara did at Japan Nationals?