Random Figure Skating Questions

[CaroLiza_fan]

Has there ever been a proposal or any kind of discussion about making it possible for a country to send 4 skaters/pairs in one event in the world championships?

In other sports, like athletics for example, the current world title holder has his own personal spot for the next championships and therefor the country he/she represent can send 4 athletes in that event. I think similar system would suit very well in figure skating too.

Let me guess. You have been watching the Nordic Ski World Championships this week as well.

When I heard David Goldstrom and Mike Dixon talking about how the reigning champion has an additional slot to their country's allocation, my instant thought was "That would be perfect for figure skating!"

The reigning champion would have an extra reward for their achievement. There would be no pressure on them to get selected for the national team, and we would eliminate the prospect of the highly embarassing situation where the reigning champion is not selected. Also, there would be less pressure on their compatriots to get on the team.

Since I joined this forum, I have made some suggestions about how to improve the sport, and I am currently working on putting them all together into one big proposal.

And one of the ideas I am going to include is exactly this.

Some of my ideas have been seen as being pretty radical, but this is anything but. I really can't see there being any harm in treating the reigning champion like this.

I don't know if it has ever been proposed before, but I really hope somebody does propose it soon.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Mrs. P]

GP and ISU championships.

Hope you saw my earlier post Newbie. (#1613).

 

[Mathman]

Has there ever been a proposal or any kind of discussion about making it possible for a country to send 4 skaters/pairs in one event in the world championships?

In other sports, like athletics for example, the current world title holder has his own personal spot for the next championships and therefor the country he/she represent can send 4 athletes in that event. I think similar system would suit very well in figure skating too.

There has been lots of discussion about this topic, both by fans and ISU insider types. The argument against it is that it would require a rethinking and restructuring of the whole organization -- something that people in positions of power are always leery of initiating.

No skater is a member of the ISU. The members of the ISU are National Federations. There are two corollaries. First, no individual skater, no matter how awesome his or her individual achievement might be, really counts for squat. I think that this is the rationale for denying that an individual skater deserves something next year for winning something this year.

The second is that changes in rules and procedure must (in principle) be voted on by a majority of National Federations. There are many small federations who never have much of a chance to win anything, but by banding together they can at least protect their right to join in the game.

The ISU is struggling financially. They have consistently downsized everything (especially prize money for athletes) to save money. If they decided to add an extra place or two to Worlds, this would not be "in addition" but rather "at the expense" of some other federation whose skater would miss out on qualifying.

Let me guess. You have been watching the Nordic Ski World Championships this week as well.

When I heard David Goldstrom and Mike Dixon talking about how the reigning champion has an additional slot to their country's allocation, my instant thought was "That would be perfect for figure skating!"

The reigning champion would have an extra reward for their achievement. There would be no pressure on them to get selected for the national team, and we would eliminate the prospect of the highly embarassing situation where the reigning champion is not selected. Also, there would be less pressure on their compatriots to get on the team.

Makes sense to me, but I believe that this is the opposite of the way that the ISU looks at the sport.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

The ISU is struggling financially. They have consistently downsized everything (especially prize money for athletes) to save money.

Don't forget the medals - they've been downsized too! That's the first thing Sandpiper noticed when they saw my fan-art for Liza winning Europeans!

If they decided to add an extra place or two to Worlds, this would not be "in addition" but rather "at the expense" of some other federation whose skater would miss out on qualifying.

Ah, but would some other skater miss out? Because I was under the impression that, since the ISU got rid of pre-qualifying, that there was no limit to the number of entries to ISU Championships. The only way they had of restricting numberss was by requiring skaters to have a minimum TES. In which case, it wouldn't affect anybody else if the reigning Champion was there on a free pass.

Makes sense to me, but I believe that this is the opposite of the way that the ISU looks at the sport.

Who knows what way the ISU thinks?!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Mathman]

Ah, but would some other skater miss out? Because I was under the impression that, since the ISU got rid of pre-qualifying, that there was no limit to the number of entries to ISU Championships. The only way they had of restricting numberss was by requiring skaters to have a minimum TES. In which case, it wouldn't affect anybody else if the reigning Champion was there on a free pass.

Well, it is possible that the ISU would be tempted to raise the minimum TES if they could be sure that an extra skater or two would be added in at the top.

But what I really had in mind was, how many are allowed to advance to the free program? Last year, in ladies, for instance, if 2013 world champion Yuna Kim had been shoveled in at the top (and if she had wanted to compete, which she didn't), that could have given Korea two skaters in the free and knocked out the only Czech skater, Brezinova, while also increasing (by one) the burden on countries like Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Belgium, which were on the bubble.

For 2015, Mao's individual free pass would give Japan a good chance to land four skaters (three comprising the team chosen by the Japanese Skating Federation and one comprising the unique and non-denominational Mao Asada team), and this would indeed come at the expense of somebody else.

By the way, speaking of money, last year if you were a judge for men's or pairs' your expenses were paid from breakfast Sunday through lunch the following Monday. But if you were scheduled to judge ladies or dance, don't even think of showing up for the first couple of days. Your expense account starts running two or three days later (still ending at the same time). Think of all the money the ISU and the local organizing committee saved on all those extra meals! If Yuna Kim had come, they would have been stuck with an extra breakfast, lunch, and dinner for 9 days (less one dinner -- catch an early flight). Maybe the rule should be, the ex-champ can skate, but since she earned so much money in endorsement contracts after last year's glory, she can darn well pay her own way!

Who knows what way the ISU thinks?!

Indeed. Still, I think we are safe in speculating the the ISU is run quite conservatively -- even to the point of abandoning their own constitution and by-laws when the President ages out but still wishes to continue. The members are dictators in their own backyards and vie with another for influence in the parent organization. I think that even Japan would think twice about allowing its top skater to strike out on her own, winning an individual invitation to Worlds without requiring the blessing of the Federation. Would the Japanese Federation say, "Way to go, Mao, you got us four spots"? Or would that just be the thin edge of the wedge. What will skaters want next, a players union?

 

[Interspectator]

I'm assuming Newbie is asking about 4cc/Euros/Worlds/GP.

For GP: In 2010, Daisuke Takahashi won Skate America with no quad (though he won NHK that season with one). Tomas Verner won COR without a quad (though Patrick Chan landed one in the SP; he lost cause of a zayak in the FS). In 2011, Michel Brezina missed all his quads in competition but won due to his lead in the SP (but the guy who won the FS, Kevin Van Der Perren did! KVDP!!) Daisuke Takahashi did not have a ratified quad (4F< in the FS) in winning 2011 NHK Trophy. Tatsuki Machida did not have a landed quad to win Cup of China in 2012 (He fell on his 4T).

As for Worlds, 2010. Daisuke Takahashi attempted a 4F but it was not ratified. Patrick Chan, for all his imperfections won Worlds 2011-2013 with quads.

And Euros, Florent Amodio won the overall competition in 2011 w/o a quad, but Brian Joubert won the FS with one.

Thanks! How interesting.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

In reading one of Mathmans posts in another thread a question came to mind.

During a death spiral is it feasible/possible or even legal for the lady to take the mans position as the center and holder of the spin? And could they do it and alternate positions? Would that be cool or am I dreaming here. This is the stoopid questions thread after all.

 

[NanaPat]

RE an "extra place" for the champion (aside from the country's quota): If I recall correctly, the third entry for a country used to be for a person, not for the country in general. That is, the most unrestricted entries a country could get was two, but if they had someone at the very top (don't think it was just the champion, it was the top 3 or 5 or something like that), then the country could get an extra entry BUT IT HAD TO BE USED BY THE PERSON WHO EARNED IT.

Does anyone else remember this, or have any more details?

By the way, I was very impressed by Yuna Kim's behavior (as opposed to Plushenko's) around the 2014 Olympics. She came back to the previous world's to earn a spot for herself, instead of taking her country's only spot from a younger skater. A really classy lady.

 

[gkelly]

RE an "extra place" for the champion (aside from the country's quota): If I recall correctly, the third entry for a country used to be for a person, not for the country in general. That is, the most unrestricted entries a country could get was two, but if they had someone at the very top (don't think it was just the champion, it was the top 3 or 5 or something like that), then the country could get an extra entry BUT IT HAD TO BE USED BY THE PERSON WHO EARNED IT.

Does anyone else remember this, or have any more details?

Yes, top 3 (medal) earned three spots for the federation but one of them had to be used by the same skater ("named skater") who had earned the spot.

Top 10 by the highest placing skater from that federation earned 2 spots.

I think the last year the "named skater" provision was in effect was 1989 (to determine 1990 team sizes?).

 

[peg]

By the way, I was very impressed by Yuna Kim's behavior (as opposed to Plushenko's) around the 2014 Olympics. She came back to the previous world's to earn a spot for herself, instead of taking her country's only spot from a younger skater. A really classy lady.

Same here

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

But what I really had in mind was, how many are allowed to advance to the free program?

Fair enough point. Somebody would lose out in terms of getting to the Free Skate. I was concentrating more on the Short Programme, and hadn't thought about the next stage of the competition.

By the way, speaking of money, last year if you were a judge for men's or pairs' your expenses were paid from breakfast Sunday through lunch the following Monday. But if you were scheduled to judge ladies or dance, don't even think of showing up for the first couple of days. Your expense account starts running two or three days later (still ending at the same time). Think of all the money the ISU and the local organizing committee saved on all those extra meals! If Yuna Kim had come, they would have been stuck with an extra breakfast, lunch, and dinner for 9 days (less one dinner -- catch an early flight). Maybe the rule should be, the ex-champ can skate, but since she earned so much money in endorsement contracts after last year's glory, she can darn well pay her own way!

Hang on. Reading between the lines, are you saying that the ISU are even paying for everybody's meals?!

IS IT ANY WONDER THE ISU ARE HAVING MONEY PROBLEMS!!!

FOR GOODNESS SAKE, TELL THEM TO PAY FOR THEIR OWN MEALS!!!

I know figure skating is an expensive hobby to have, but surely the skaters (and their teams) can afford to buy three square meals for themselves for the few days they are at a competition.

Like, think about it. If you are a skater and you are there for 5 days, then that is 15 meals you have to pay for. Paying for 15 meals isn't too much out of your own pocket.

But, if you are the ISU and you are paying to feed, say, 600 people for 5 days, that is a serious amount of money.

600 people may sound like a lot, but it is actually a conservative estimate.

If we have 30 entries in each category, then that is 180 skaters (30 Ladies skaters, 30 Men's skaters, 60 Pairs skaters, 60 Dancers).

If we allow for each skater bringing 2 people with them, that is another 360 mouths to feed, bringing the total to 540.

I don't know how many officials there would be at a figure skating competition, so let's make it 60 to bring it up to a round number of 600.​

Even if the cost per meal is only £10, if we had 600 people eating 15 meals, that would bring the total cost for the ISU to £90,000!!!!



This is just another example of the sort of nonsense that bureaucrats often think it is a good idea to introduce. And even though it is now crippling the organization's finances, they are loathed to stop it.

It has to be stopped, and soon. The sport is already suffering due to lack of money. If they don't act soon and cut out stuff like this, it is no exaggeration to say that the sport will die.

Indeed. Still, I think we are safe in speculating the the ISU is run quite conservatively...

And that is the whole problem. I'm very conservative myself, and don't like change. But even I can see that something needs to be done to save this great sport. But the officials at the ISU are so set in their ways, and are burying their heads in the sand.

I've said it before, but we need former skaters running the governing body, as they know all the ins and outs of the sport.

But, this is getting way off the topic of the original question.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[dorispulaski]

In reading one of Mathmans posts in another thread a question came to mind.

During a death spiral is it feasible/possible or even legal for the lady to take the mans position as the center and holder of the spin? And could they do it and alternate positions? Would that be cool or am I dreaming here. This is the stoopid questions thread after all.

Yes, it would be way cool.

The pairs rules, unfortunately, describe the pivoting position as the Man's.

However there is a way we could see this. In ice dance, there is an element this year called a Choreographic Spin. It has no description, so anything goes, provided a spinning move of some sort is done and it fits with the music.

Dance is more open than pairs in regard of sex roles anyway. It already has lifts described in terms of The Lifting Partner and the Lifted Partner, rather than as the Man and the Lady, so that gender reversal lifts are OK.

Dance couples are often more nearly equal in size than pairs are, so gender reversal death spirals would be more physically possible for dancers, too.

I bet the Kerrs could have done it!

 

[Weathergal]

I bet the Kerrs could have done it!

And maybe Anissina/Peizerat.

 

[dorispulaski]

Or Faiella & Scali.

Or Tessa & Scott.

 

[Sackie]

Didn't Brasseur / Eisler actually do some reverse moves in a show routine where he was dressed as a 'lady'!

 

[Mathman]

Hang on. Reading between the lines, are you saying that the ISU are even paying for everybody's meals?!

Here is what the official announcement says. First, for accreditation (not expenses) the categories seem to be Team Leader, Assistant Team Leader (for teams with six or more athletes), Team Officials, Team Medical Staff (one doctor and one physiotherapist), and Partners or Relatives of Judges (one for each judge).

http://isuprod.blob.core.windows.net/media/165969/wc2015_announcement_final.pdf

using language like

Only two Team Officials of each Member, including the Member President or other members of the Member provided that they are Council/Board members, Technical Committee members or members of the Head Office of their Federation, will be accredited.

In addition to all these members of Members, each competitor may bring a Chaperone. “Chaperones may apply for a “bus pass” that allows them to attend practices, but

Chaperones will not stay in the Official Skating Family Hotel. The chaperones will not receive any special price tickets to the competition events or the Exhibition.

So in other words, if you are accompanying your teenaged daughter, you can keep an eagle eye on her at official skating practices, but that night at the hotel she’s own her own.

Anyway, none of these folks except the Team Leader and the actual skaters get food and lodging allowances from the ISU.

The folks who get meals and lodging are the ISU officials, including judges, technical specialists, etc. These expenses are born by the local organizing committee. The amount that the National Federation and the ISU kick in is part of the negotiations surrounding the bidding process. The assumption is that if the event is well organized, well publicized, etc., then the organizing committee and the local economy will reap some financial benefits.

Personally, I do not begrudge the judges a meal or two. They are unpaid volunteers who donate their time and expertise for love of the sport, receiving little love back for their dedication and service.

 

[dorispulaski]

Brasseur & Eisler's "Patricia the Stripper" routine.

http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=/#/watch?v=cfwAhSReJBc

The one gender bender move is a throw axel. It is primarily a drag routine.

 

[iluvtodd]

I don't consider these stupid questions, but I'll ask them anyway.

The USFS ad that starts with Ashley Wagner in red (and ends with Tara saying "Everyone should give fs a try."). There is a skater who talks about getting up after you fall. The voice sounds like Nicole Bobek, but I doubt it's her (since I figure they would use one of the current eligibles to speak in that ad). Can anyone here identify the skater who talks about getting up after you fall?


My second question - for those of you who attended US Nationals in Greensboro last month. We listened to Skate Radio Channels B & C a lot. I recognize the voices on Channel B. My husband Mark switched for a while to Channel C, and suggested I tune in as well. He thought for sure Todd was doing some of the commentary. After listening for a while, I thought it was Todd as well, but it may not have been him after all. If anyone else listened to the Channel C commentary during the men's free skate, can you positively identify the guys who did the commentary?

I'm bumping up my original questions. Can anyone possibly answer them?

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes Todd was on for some of the Ice Desk or Ice network coverage. [SUB][/SUB]It is still up on Ice Network.

Channel A was always the tech channel.
Men's and Ladies was announced as Charlie St Cyr and Jimmy Santee.

Meryl did some of the ice dance. I think Tanith did some too for juniors? She was there doing her Universal.Sports gig.
I am not sure who did the rest.

Channel B was Icenetwork. Sometimes it had Ice Desk coverage before and after the event. In between it had the voices doing commentary for Ice Network (if any)

Channel C was NBC, so whatever they had as well as Johnny and Tara.

 

[ice coverage]

... My second question - for those of you who attended US Nationals in Greensboro last month. We listened to Skate Radio Channels B & C a lot. I recognize the voices on Channel B. My husband Mark switched for a while to Channel C, and suggested I tune in as well. He thought for sure Todd was doing some of the commentary. After listening for a while, I thought it was Todd as well, but it may not have been him after all. If anyone else listened to the Channel C commentary during the men's free skate, can you positively identify the guys who did the commentary?

ILT, if you and/or your husband were accidentally listening to Channel A (Skate Radio) for any of the Men's FS:

IIRC, David Santee and Peter Cain were on Skate Radio for the Men's FS. (I forget whether they were joined by a third voice for the segment.)

David Santee and Charlie Cyr were mainstays of the Skate Radio commentary throughout Nats:

https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/558398888248242177​

It so happened that Cyr was not available for the Men's FS -- had to leave Greensboro early for an ISU commitment somewhere.​