State of Russian Men's Figure Skating 2015-2016

[samm22]

Coming from someone who prefers neither Kovtun's nor Voronov's skating, I don't think "North American"-izing their skating will be good. I mean, sure, I'm not the biggest fans of them, but that's only MY preference, and there are plenty of others who do prefer what some may call "less artistic". Also, I think what works for a skater works for him, and what works for another skater works for that skater. That being said, I do agree that it would be great if they could get some better choreography--especially Kovtun--but I don't think giving them "North American" programs is the way to go. It's fun and interesting to have variety in skating, and I think the goal should just be finding programs that have a bit more choreographically, while still allowing them to focus on what they want to focus on (in this case, jumps)

I agree

 

[Rissa]

I'm a fan of the Russians over the Americans for a reason. I don't like lyrical skating very much at all - it puts me to sleep. The Japanese guys don't skate "North American proper" (whatever that's supposed to mean) and it doesn't hinder them. So the last thing I'd ever want is for the Russian guys to turn into a bunch of NA clones. But if I understand correctly, Sergei is going to work with a non-Russian choreographer this season.

:yes: :agree:

 

[gmyers]

Coming from someone who prefers neither Kovtun's nor Voronov's skating, I don't think "North American"-izing their skating will be good. I mean, sure, I'm not the biggest fans of them, but that's only MY preference, and there are plenty of others who do prefer what some may call "less artistic". Also, I think what works for a skater works for him, and what works for another skater works for that skater. That being said, I do agree that it would be great if they could get some better choreography--especially Kovtun--but I don't think giving them "North American" programs is the way to go. It's fun and interesting to have variety in skating, and I think the goal should just be finding programs that have a bit more choreographically, while still allowing them to focus on what they want to focus on (in this case, jumps)

It is very possible and has been seen in many cases that skaters adopting a style not their own doesn't work and fails. But sometimes it can lead to a world championships or biggest success. Like maybe shen/Zhou of pairs or Bourne/kraatz of dance or Kerrigan of singles. For caring about jumps most kovtun/voronov are not stojko's. they can't do their own thing because jump success is not their consistently. They need to adopt prevailing styles of what's successful world medalists do. Hire their people. Train with them.

 

[Sandpiper]

To be honest, I don't think Voronov's problem is his choreography. I know some people think it's tacky or whatever, but it gets the crowd going and he's praised for being a good performer.

His "problem" is that he doesn't have the transitions or skating skills demanded by COP. I don't know if he could improve those significantly, simply because he has limited resources and many things to focus on. His consistency could go down if he starts adding more transitions. And his marks tend to drop significantly when he makes mistakes (but mainly due to the nature of his mistakes, not due to his PCS dropping - see below).

While we're on the topic of components, more stats! Voronov vs. Kovtun PCS comparison:

Kovtun:
CoC - 41.56 SP, 83.36 LP
TEB - 39.15 SP, 80.28 LP
GPF - 40.08 SP, 78.90 LP
Europeans - 37.94 SP, 78.72 LP
Worlds - 40.15 SP, 77.56 LP
WTT - 39.25 SP, 79.22 LP

Voronov:
CoR: 40.25 SP, 80.44 LP
NHK 38.35 SP, 77.38 LP
GPF: 38.58 SP, 77.00 LP
Europeans: 39.53 SP, 76.86 LP
Worlds: 40.24 SP, 78.30 LP
WTT: 39.35 SP, 81.16 LP

Bolded portions indicate that 1) they were in direct competition with each other at the event 2) the person with the bolded score received higher PCS for the segment.

Seems like, contrary to popular belief, Kovtun's skating is not more COP-friendly/international-judge friendly than Voronov's. Instead: Kovtun received very high PCS early on in the season, perhaps due to the general inflation at his events (e.g. CoC), perhaps due to being reigning National champ/fourth at Worlds last year. However, his PCS seemed to drop over the course of the season, to the extent that he mainly lost the PCS battle to Voronov later on.

Voronov, on the other hand, has seen his PCS remain stable/even increase a bit (if we ignore CoR as home inflation). Perhaps a combination of his mistakes being less disruptive to PCS (while killing his TES), as well as his "consistency" earning some momentum/street cred.

In other news, I have edited the first post. The rambling is much the same, but I've formatted it by skater and broken them down by categories. Plus some "strategies for next year" sections. It's even longer now, but hopefully easier to read.

 

[gmyers]

Best people use choreo moves as transition moves as well. Like a spread eagle or Ina Bauer or besti squat. You want to hit as many pcs boxes with one move as possible. Lori Nichols and zueva have been expert at this. They do North American proper which is most IJS COP judge friendly. You can't have its a mans world or muse without choreo tranisitions and everything but since kovtun was not like Abbott at all in doing choreo/transitions/performance During his muse t was Anova disaster If he was ever aiming for a world medal. It's a mans world was just a creative botch from start to finish and also a pcs disaster if he wanted a world medal. This is why so many programs are done to same music because so many transitional/choreographic moves are seen as part of them.

 

[LRK]

@Sandpiper - Appreciate your work on the thread! I like your first post, and the changes you've made to it - interesting reading.

 

[silverfoxes]

Best people use choreo moves as transition moves as well. Like a spread eagle or Ina Bauer or besti squat. You want to hit as many pcs boxes with one move as possible. Lori Nichols and zueva have been expert at this. They do North American proper which is most IJS COP judge friendly. You can't have its a mans world or muse without choreo tranisitions and everything but since kovtun was not like Abbott at all in doing choreo/transitions/performance During his muse t was Anova disaster If he was ever aiming for a world medal. It's a mans world was just a creative botch from start to finish and also a pcs disaster if he wanted a world medal. This is why so many programs are done to same music because so many transitional/choreographic moves are seen as part of them.

Eteri and her team are not idiots. They are well aware of the differences between Sergei's programs and those of Yuzuru, Denis, Javi, etc. What would you rather see - him falling and splatting everywhere with a layout he can't cope with, or skating relatively clean? They will try to complicate the programs to the best of his ability, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Eteri had to undo a lot of bad habits Sergei picked up from his previous coaches and he's still a work in progress. The same Russian choreographers work for the ladies as they do for the men, and the ladies do just fine. Maybe they should have him 'tano all his jumps.

Lori Nichols and Zueva have produced some of the most empty and bland programs I've ever seen...they are NOT the answer. Good grief.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

What on earth is 'North American proper'?!

 

[gmyers]

Eteri and her team are not idiots. They are well aware of the differences between Sergei's programs and those of Yuzuru, Denis, Javi, etc. What would you rather see - him falling and splatting everywhere with a layout he can't cope with, or skating relatively clean? They will try to complicate the programs to the best of his ability, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Eteri had to undo a lot of bad habits Sergei picked up from his previous coaches and he's still a work in progress. The same Russian choreographers work for the ladies as they do for the men, and the ladies do just fine. Maybe they should have him 'tano all his jumps.

Lori Nichols and Zueva have produced some of the most empty and bland programs I've ever seen...they are NOT the answer. Good grief.

Sure Rome wasnt built in a day but what was the deal with its a mans worlds and that choreo and that costume? Even If you enjoyed it or enjoyed voronovs performance of it it was total poison among judges and his pcs was not world best level and completely rejected. You don't see rejections in ones or twos but 7 and 8's. from start to finish that programs should never have been accepted for one second.

The Russian women are all much better jumpers and all of them do lots of tranisitions and its true tano all jumps by some. But it's far more IJS savvy and North American proper than the men's discipline

What on earth is 'North American proper'?!

It's classical, its tranisitions, its mainstream, its conservative, there's Choreo, interpretation, it became IJS. It's taught to be most worthy of high points by Inman , dore etc. it's orser and Carroll. Nichol and zueva and David Wilson.

 

[silverfoxes]

Sure Rome wasnt built in a day but what was the deal with its a mans worlds and that choreo and that costume? Even If you enjoyed it or enjoyed voronovs performance of it it was total poison among judges and his pcs was not world best level and completely rejected. You don't see rejections in ones or twos but 7 and 8's. from start to finish that programs should never have been accepted for one second.

The Russian women are all much better jumpers and all of them do lots of tranisitions and its true tano all jumps by some. But it's far more IJS savvy and North American proper than the men's discipline

Oh, did you personally interview all of the judges? Who says they didn't like his program? I thought the consensus on GS was that he doesn't even deserve the PCS he gets because his SS and transitions are terrible? Granted, there's room for improvement there and that's why his marks are what they are (I personally think he was underscored a few times, but I realize PCS is subjective & it's out of my hands). Giving him a cheesy Lori Nichols program wouldn't have made any difference.

There is no such thing as "North American proper" and even if there were, I would hope it NEVER becomes a thing in Russia (or anywhere else). No thanks.

 

[andromache]

It's classical, its tranisitions, its mainstream, its conservative, there's Choreo, interpretation, it became IJS. It's taught to be most worthy of high points by Inman , dore etc. it's orser and Carroll. Nichol and zueva and David Wilson.

I'm not sure why this is being referred to as only North American. Zueva is Russian! As are Morozov and Tarasova who have created many successful IJS programs with these elements. Actually, given the importance of classical lines and interpretation in Russian pairs skating, it's really interesting that these aspects don't seem to be as much of a focus in the singles disciplines in Russia.

 

[moriel]

"It's classical, its tranisitions, its mainstream, its conservative, there's Choreo, interpretation, it became IJS. It's taught to be most worthy of high points by Inman , dore etc. it's orser and Carroll. Nichol and zueva and David Wilson. "

Well, if all male skaters were clones of the Orser boys (i like them, but imho 3 is a bit too much already), FS would be boring. Same as POTO, its great, unless you have to listen it 10 times during a single championship. While I understand its safer do do the mainstream that judges like, following this logic, NOT doing the mainstream is actually taking it to another level =P

Now seriously, i have a feeling that single skating, specially men`s, is kinda seen in Russia as sport - where the pretty doesnt really matter as long as you hit the tech points. So the main goal to jump quads and do the sporty stuff.

 

[Rissa]

"It's classical, its tranisitions, its mainstream, its conservative, there's Choreo, interpretation, it became IJS. It's taught to be most worthy of high points by Inman , dore etc. it's orser and Carroll. Nichol and zueva and David Wilson. "

Well, if all male skaters were clones of the Orser boys (i like them, but imho 3 is a bit too much already), FS would be boring. Same as POTO, its great, unless you have to listen it 10 times during a single championship. While I understand its safer do do the mainstream that judges like, following this logic, NOT doing the mainstream is actually taking it to another level =P

Now seriously, i have a feeling that single skating, specially men`s, is kinda seen in Russia as sport - where the pretty doesnt really matter as long as you hit the tech points. So the main goal to jump quads and do the sporty stuff.

It does sound like a recipe for hell, doesn't it. Especially the 'classical', 'mainstream' and 'conservative' parts. It's a good thing such a thing as "North American proper" doesn't actually exist.

 

[karne]

No. Voronov's issue is the same as Menshov's - simply, they aren't supposed to be doing this well, and they've annoyed their federation. Politiking works both ways.

 

[gmyers]

Oh, did you personally interview all of the judges? Who says they didn't like his program? I thought the consensus on GS was that he doesn't even deserve the PCS he gets because his SS and transitions are terrible? Granted, there's room for improvement there and that's why his marks are what they are (I personally think he was underscored a few times, but I realize PCS is subjective & it's out of my hands). Giving him a cheesy Lori Nichols program wouldn't have made any difference.

There is no such thing as "North American proper" and even if there were, I would hope it NEVER becomes a thing in Russia (or anywhere else). No thanks.

Of course not! But its no coincidence top two skaters in the world are trained in same rink. Third place coached by someone very similar. 4th place same thing.

Well I don't like the phrase or beleif that all Russian men are 6.0 skaters when they aren't and I don't believe that COP savvy is specific enough. I could easily call North American proper orsernicholcarollinman skating!!!

I'm not sure why this is being referred to as only North American. Zueva is Russian! As are Morozov and Tarasova who have created many successful IJS programs with these elements. Actually, given the importance of classical lines and interpretation in Russian pairs skating, it's really interesting that these aspects don't seem to be as much of a focus in the singles disciplines in Russia.

But zueva is north American now. Tarasova gave kovtun a program with no choreo, transitions, interpretation or performance! She gave him an absolute zero pcs program. Morozov is largely out and finished!

"It's classical, its tranisitions, its mainstream, its conservative, there's Choreo, interpretation, it became IJS. It's taught to be most worthy of high points by Inman , dore etc. it's orser and Carroll. Nichol and zueva and David Wilson. "

Well, if all male skaters were clones of the Orser boys (i like them, but imho 3 is a bit too much already), FS would be boring. Same as POTO, its great, unless you have to listen it 10 times during a single championship. While I understand its safer do do the mainstream that judges like, following this logic, NOT doing the mainstream is actually taking it to another level =P

Now seriously, i have a feeling that single skating, specially men`s, is kinda seen in Russia as sport - where the pretty doesnt really matter as long as you hit the tech points. So the main goal to jump quads and do the sporty stuff.

Well I don't want all skaters looking alike but if you want to get to highest level maybe it makes sense to adopt what hugest level people do. It's just an option potential short cut. But it not be sold well.

its possibke what may make a skater successful wihin Russia could doom their hopes of great success outside it. Jumps number one everything else secondary- if even secondary

No. Voronov's issue is the same as Menshov's - simply, they aren't supposed to be doing this well, and they've annoyed their federation. Politiking works both ways.

That's also internal vs external. The internal situation is completely different than external.

 

[moriel]

Well, to get to highest level, the worst thing you can do is to copy the current highest level people =) Not even potential. It just don't usually fits the skater well and makes him/her look as cheap copy of the highest level. Not everybody is classical. Last but not least, PCs tend to build up and grow with the TES, so if one manages to have a stable high TES, PCs will come.
Example: Liza and Elena. Their choreographies are not really "proper", and they still get high PCs =D
Also, standards and trends change, and hopefully what you call "North American" and "proper orsernicholcarollinman" will be gone soon, maybe when current tops retire. I personally think their programs are excessively busy, with too many small stuff that doesnt add to performance and artistic side, but is there pretty much only to earn points - and would love to see cleaner (as less random stuff stuffed in for points) skates.

 

[Interspectator]

I'd like to comment that even the Orser boys, despite having the same coach and choreographers skate with ENTIRELY DIFFERENT styles.
They each present themselves in different ways. What is similar about them is that they have clever layouts in their programs suited to their skills and they jam-pack their programs with transitions. (some may not like this way of building a program)

I'm not sure if Kovtun is too old to re-learn his jump technique, but he can certainly go for a more complex program and maybe see a sports psychologist?
Question: Has anyone seen him land a flip or a loop? Has he actually never done these jumps EVER? What about a few years ago?

Vornov...I wouldn't actually change anything. I think making his program more complex would really mess with his consistency. --And he needs the consistency more than anyone.

 

[Interspectator]

To answer my own question, I took a look at Kovtun's previous seasons.
In the 2012-13 season, Kovtun got an (e) call for every flip he did and his loops were either 0 or negative GOE with one exception in which he got .9 GOE.
-So I guess he figured he couldn't fix the (e) and he didn't like the loop, so he took them out of his layout. -But there was a time when he tried them.

 

[Jaana]

I think that in several competitions that I have watched Voronov´s problem has been the freeskate. Often he succeeds in sp and drops down like a stone in fs. Actually I have gotten used to kind of expect it. Maybe there is a problem how he practices his freeskate, not enough full run-throughs from start to finish (in spite of a possible mistake).

 

[gmyers]

I think that in several competitions that I have watched Voronov´s problem has been the freeskate. Often he succeeds in sp and drops down like a stone in fs. Actually I have gotten used to kind of expect it. Maybe there is a problem how he practices his freeskate, not enough full run-throughs from start to finish (in spite of a possible mistake).

It's true and everyone must do full run throughs. It's something that must be adopted by all Russian coaches.

Well, to get to highest level, the worst thing you can do is to copy the current highest level people =) Not even potential. It just don't usually fits the skater well and makes him/her look as cheap copy of the highest level. Not everybody is classical. Last but not least, PCs tend to build up and grow with the TES, so if one manages to have a stable high TES, PCs will come.
Example: Liza and Elena. Their choreographies are not really "proper", and they still get high PCs =D
Also, standards and trends change, and hopefully what you call "North American" and "proper orsernicholcarollinman" will be gone soon, maybe when current tops retire. I personally think their programs are excessively busy, with too many small stuff that doesnt add to performance and artistic side, but is there pretty much only to earn points - and would love to see cleaner (as less random stuff stuffed in for points) skates.

I don't think it will change. TES must be more difficult spins and steps and better jump selection. Right now brown and ge beat kovtun and voronov in jumps.

I'd like to comment that even the Orser boys, despite having the same coach and choreographers skate with ENTIRELY DIFFERENT styles.
They each present themselves in different ways. What is similar about them is that they have clever layouts in their programs suited to their skills and they jam-pack their programs with transitions. (some may not like this way of building a program)

I'm not sure if Kovtun is too old to re-learn his jump technique, but he can certainly go for a more complex program and maybe see a sports psychologist?
Question: Has anyone seen him land a flip or a loop? Has he actually never done these jumps EVER? What about a few years ago?

Vornov...I wouldn't actually change anything. I think making his program more complex would really mess with his consistency. --And he needs the consistency more than anyone.

Clever layouts and transitions is all part of the North American system but not for russian men. It's all quads first and as many as possible. Not that it doesn't exist for some North American men as well but where are they? Not going to worlds.

To answer my own question, I took a look at Kovtun's previous seasons.
In the 2012-13 season, Kovtun got an (e) call for every flip he did and his loops were either 0 or negative GOE with one exception in which he got .9 GOE.
-So I guess he figured he couldn't fix the (e) and he didn't like the loop, so he took them out of his layout. -But there was a time when he tried them.

He needs to fix flip. Rather than eliminate that opportunity and do salchow or 2a or do loop.