Random Figure Skating Questions

[Mathman]

Just my two cents, but "gals" generally does not work in this day and age -- except in an ironic sense, IMO.

I believe the correct usage is "guys and dolls."

How about a male waiter at a nice restaurant addressing a table of females: "Good evening, ladies/young ladies/girls/women/gals/females"?...

"Ladies, ladies, ladies." Even if they are little girls. You want a tip, don't you?

What is the proper way for a male to refer to a female acquaintance (other than directly by name): "That girl/gal/lady/young lady/woman/female over there helped me set up these decorations."

Directly by name. You are gratefully acknowledging the help of Mrs. Johnson, or of your good friend Claire.

How to introduce your girl friend: "This is Claire Johnson." (Leave 'em guessing just who or what Ms. Johnson is to you. )

In general,thoiugh, "ladies, ladies, ladies." Unless they are figure skaters or other athletes; then they are women.

I think I prefer the neutral, "Hello, humans."

:agree: And its especially appropriate if you are a robot.

 

[sabinfire]

Directly by name. You are gratefully acknowledging the help of Mrs. Johnson, or of your good friend Claire.

How to introduce your girl friend: "This is Claire Johnson." (Leave 'em guessing just who or what Ms. Johnson is to you. )

In general,thoiugh, "ladies, ladies, ladies." Unless they are figure skaters or other athletes; then they are women.

Bad example. Let's say you don't know the name of the person, but still need to refer to them in a gender-specific way: "The lady behind the counter", "The woman who showed me the house", "The female cashier was rude to me", etc.

Or let's say, as a man, you want to refer to your girlfriend or girl friend to a group of people (without giving out her name, say, via the internet) but want to make the gender clear to everyone... would you say, "The lady I went to the event with", "The woman in the picture with me", or "The girl that accompanied me on the trip", etc?

 

[Mathman]

Bad example. Let's say you don't know the name of the person, but still need to refer to them in a gender-specific way: "The lady behind the counter", "The woman who showed me the house", "The female cashier was rude to me", etc.

Or let's say, as a man, you want to refer to your girlfriend or girl friend to a group of people (without giving out her name, say, via the internet) but want to make the gender clear to everyone... would you say, "The lady I went to the event with", "The woman in the picture with me", or "The girl that accompanying me on the trip", etc?

IMHO all of those examples are excellent usage. Except that I think that both the male speaker and the the "girl" have to be really young for her to be a "girl." If the speaker is old and the person accompanying him is a teenager, then "young lady." (?)

I think examples like these show the power and subtlety of language.

 

[sabinfire]

IMHO all of those examples are excellent usage. Except that I think that both the male speaker and the the "girl" have to be really young for her to be a "girl." If the speaker is old and the person accompanying him is a teenager, then "young lady." (?)

I would think so, too. But even your example of "ladies" might be cause for objection to some. For many women, the term 'lady' carries connotations that suggest they are delicate and/or expected to uphold a certain level of social expectation, i.e. 'act like a lady', etc.

If you want to get really confused, just look up the definition of 'lady' in a modern dictionary.

 

[Ice Dance]

Bad example. Let's say you don't know the name of the person, but still need to refer to them in a gender-specific way: "The lady behind the counter", "The woman who showed me the house", "The female cashier was rude to me", etc.

Or let's say, as a man, you want to refer to your girlfriend or girl friend to a group of people (without giving out her name, say, via the internet) but want to make the gender clear to everyone... would you say, "The lady I went to the event with", "The woman in the picture with me", or "The girl that accompanied me on the trip", etc?

"The lady behind the counter" or the "The woman who showed me the house" are equally good.

"The female cashier was rude to me." Would be little more awkward in cases of casual speech, I think. "Female" is a bit of a fill-in-the-bubble on the form type of word. Works well for written language, but in casual speech, you would probably be more likely to say "The lady cashier" or "The woman at the counter."

I don't think "The girl that accompanied me on the trip" would ever be likely because the speaker would probably need to be age 12 or younger for "girl" to be appropriate, with regards to a girlfriend. (There's an extra level of respect expected here, due to the nature of the relationship). And a boy that age would probably say "The girl that went on the trip with me" rather than "accompanied." I agree that the other two examples in the bottom paragraph are excellent usage.

I would add that "gals" is a bit of a regionalism. More appropriate in some places than others. And probably likewise more acceptable for someone from an older generation than a younger one. I know women in their sixties who refer to younger women and friends as "gals" without irony.

 

[dorispulaski]

Lady can be a slur, even a class slur, in some cases, as in (and this is strictly US usage, not British) 'my cleaning lady,' or 'lunch ladies' (school cafeteria workers), 'lady cop', Golden Skate lady, as used by Mirai Nagasu
My high school gym instructor referred to a class of girls as 'ladies' when they were behaving as anything else
A military service drill instructor might refer to a group of men as 'ladies' if they are not performing up to standard (Clint Eastwood as Gunny Highway in "Heartbreak Ridge" does it.

Or an irate New Yorker, "Hey! Lady!")

Which examples only show that gender specific terms in American English are strongly affected by context.

But it is true that the waiter addresses women as ladies.

 

[Mathman]

Lady can be a slur, even a class slur, in some cases, as in (and this is strictly US usage, not British) 'my cleaning lady,' or 'lunch ladies' (school cafeteria workers), 'lady cop', Golden Skate lady, as used by Mirai Nagasu

I would never say "lady cop" for "lady policeman." (Although no one ever says "lady policeman" except me. ) Otherwise, I think all those are OK, if the speaker is young. Mirai can be excused if she is young and the Golden Skate Lady is more mature (and hence wiser and someone to defer to).

Or an irate New Yorker, "Hey! Lady!")

But then again, consider the alternatives that one might hear.

But it is true that the waiter addresses women as ladies.

The main problem that waiters face is when to stop calling you "miss" and start saying "ma'am." :yes:

 

[ice coverage]

Hmmm ... I've been thinking about a sort of parallel btwn "guy" and "lady."

If I had a transaction at the box office with a male, I might say later, "The ticket guy told me about a last-minute discount." Never would say, "ticket gentleman." But if the box office employee were a female, I would say, "The ticket lady told me ... " For me, I never would say, "ticket gal."

If I saw a police officer nearby when my friend and I were lost on the street, I might say (depending on the officer's gender), "I'm going to ask the police lady for help" -- or "I'm going to ask the police guy for help." For me, never would say "the police gal." And prob. not "policewoman" or "policeman" -- only b/c they are more formal.

... I would add that "gals" is a bit of a regionalism. More appropriate in some places than others. And probably likewise more acceptable for someone from an older generation than a younger one. I know women in their sixties who refer to younger women and friends as "gals" without irony.

Thx for your post ... which has helped me recognize that the word I have been stumbling around for to describe "gals" is that it sounds "dated" to me.

And I say that as someone who is no spring chicken myself (thus my usage of the phrase "spring chicken," which prob. also is dated ).

It is true for me too that I have heard some of my elders say "gals" without irony , but I guess my ears hear it with irony, if that makes any sense.

So I would say we are in agreement about the generational thing.

(And I will take your word for the regionalism. I hear "gals" too rarely to have an opinion on that .)

 

[Mathman]

Never would say, "ticket gentleman."

I might if I were going to the opera or ballet.

But if the box office employee were a female, I would say, "The ticket lady told me ... " For me, I never would say, "ticket gal."

I might if i were going to the square dance jamboree, especially if the purty little gal was in her square dancing costume. If the ticket seller were male, he might be the "ticket gent." In square dancing "purty little gals" come in all ages and sizes -- but they're all purty.

It is true for me too that I have heard some of my elders say "gals" without irony , but I guess my ears hear it with irony, if that makes any sense.

"There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so."

And I will take your word for the regionalism. I hear "gals" too rarely to have an opinion on that .)

It might be somewhat more common still in the West. States like Montana, Wyoming or Arizona. I'm not sure about that anymore, though. I don't think it would be used either for or by a younger person.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Boys, but this has turned into a fascinating conversation!

Just wanted to throw in what the situation is on this side of the Atlantic.

Unlike what has been described already, the term "girl" is not just restricted to female children. It is also used for females in their twenties, and even into their early thirties.

This is going to sound really bad, but the general rule seems to be that if you are young and/or attractive, you are a "girl". But if you are older and/or not attractive, you are a "woman".

Consequently, if you are female, you do not want to be described as a "woman"!

Now, I'm not sure if it was just one of his stories, or whether it is actually the case. But my favourite radio presenter, the late Gerry Anderson, always said that on the BBC, there is actually a rule that you are not allowed to used the term "lady". It is ALWAYS "woman". Which, given what I said above, means that things can get awkward.

As for "lady", it is pretty much the same as what has been described by our American members. It is used for females with an air of elegance and class about them (the traditional use). But, it is also used when you are telling somebody off, e.g. "Come here, young lady!"

Which brings us to terms "young lady" and "young woman". As you know from a previous discussion a year or two ago (which I can't actually find at the moment, as I can't remember what thread it was in), I do not like these terms. And given how heated that discussion became, I do not want to re-ignite it again! Suffice to say, different people use those terms to mean different ages.

I don't go to restaurants often enough to know what the situation is with regards "Miss" and "Madam" ("Ma'am" is a purely American term which is not used over here. We stick with the un-abbreviated version!) But, if they are still addressed in this way, I would imagine that every female would dread the day that they stop being referred to as "Miss" and start being referred to as "Madam"!

"Gal" is not used at all. It is a purely American term.

The complicating factor is political correctness. Even though it is grammatically correct, it is not seen as politically correct to use gender specific terms like "actress", "waitress", "moyoress", "chairwoman", "ombudswoman", etc. Instead, the politically correct (but gramatically incorrect) thing to do is to use the male term, in these cases "actor", "waiter", "mayor", "chairman", "ombudsman". Which I find very strange, because if I was a woman, I would feel insulted if somebody referred to me by a male term such as "actor". My inference from this would be "are you saying I look like a man?!"

To further complicate matters, even some of the male terms are getting politically incorrect, and are getting replaced by more neutral terms. "Bin man" has been replaced by "refuge collector". "Fireman" has been replaced by "fire fighter". "Policeman" (and "policewoman", for that matter) has been replaced by "police officer".

That said, all the traditional terms mentioned in the past 2 paragraphs are still pretty much universally used! It is just the smallest minority (i.e. politicians, bureaucrats, etc. that appear on TV) that use the politically correct terms.

One final comment. When Golden mentioned the people that dispense parking tickets, this instantly popped into my head:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se5JLYKQfDU

Is this term still used in America? Despite being popularised in this song, it never caught on over on this side of the Atlantic.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[sabinfire]

As for "lady", it is pretty much the same as what has been described by our American members. It is used for females with an air of elegance and class about them (the traditional use). But, it is also used when you are telling somebody off, e.g. "Come here, young lady!"

Yes, it is fascinating trying to understand how these terms are used here. I always thought 'girl' was used beyond adolescence, and terms like 'woman' and 'lady' meant... something else.

Is this term still used in America? Despite being popularised in this song, it never caught on over on this side of the Atlantic.

I have never heard an American utter the phrase 'meter maid' in my many, many years in the States.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Yes, it is fascinating trying to understand how these terms are used here. I always thought 'girl' was used beyond adolescence, and terms like 'woman' and 'lady' meant... something else.

That part of my comment was actually directed towards Ice Dance, who had said that the term "girl" was only appropriate to use for your girlfriend if they were 12 years old or younger. Like, I am always hearing people well into their twenties referring to their partner as "my girl" or "my boy"! (Incidentally, "my woman" and "my man" are just as common!)

As for the latter part of the quote, are you by any chance referring to "ladies of the night"...?

I have never heard an American utter the phrase 'meter maid' in my many, many years in the States.

Interesting! Because we were always led to believe that it was an American term (see the Wikipedia page on the song). So, rather than being a term used throughout America, it may just be a regional term that Paul McCartney somehow picked up.

As I say, this is turning into a fascinating conversation!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[sabinfire]

That part of my comment was actually directed towards Ice Dance, who had said that the term "girl" was only appropriate to use for your girlfriend if they were 12 years old or younger.

I can only assume they were being sarcastic/facetious, plenty of people use the term 'girl' beyond age 12.

Interesting! Because we were always led to believe that it was an American term (see the Wikipedia page on the song). So, rather than being a term used throughout America, it may just be a regional term that Paul McCartney somehow picked up.

Not that I am aware of. Must be a very specific (or historically) regional term, as I have never heard it in normal conversation. And I have spent my fair share of time in major cities, such as Chicago, New York, etc...

 

[Ice Dance]

I always thought 'girl' was used beyond adolescence

If by here, you mean in the U.S., it is. But not by a guy referring to his girlfriend. Again, there is a different level of respect expected in this situation due to the relationship between them.

OTOH, it would be perfectly normal for a woman to tell her husband, "I'm going to hang out with the girls" while referring to her female friends of any age.

Essentially, all these different ways of referring to women are examples of euphemism. The more uncomfortable a term is for the general populace to nail down or say, the more versions of the term we have and the more "rules" are associated with it and the more easily the word or usage goes out of fashion without ever really disappearing. Think of all the different words that exist for "dying." (My thesaurus lists 19). Next to that, there are only 15 different terms for "woman" in the same thesaurus. Meanwhile "man" only has 6.

 

[sabinfire]

If by here, you mean in the U.S., it is. But not by a guy referring to his girlfriend.

Let me get this straight.

Is Miguel singing about 12 year old's when he sings "Girls like you remind me that I'm lonely, yeah"?

Is the HBO series 'Girls' aptly titled, even though it's about a bunch of women in the mid to late 20's?

I've got a dozen more examples ready, if you want them.

 

[Ice Dance]

Like, I am always hearing people well into their twenties referring to their partner as "my girl" or "my boy"! (Incidentally, "my woman" and "my man" are just as common!)

I should probably let someone else answer this one. Lots of gray/dangerous area here. "My girl" can have an endearing, very personal connotation. Or a possessive one. Or an overly possessive one. (Context & tone are going to make a big difference). "My woman"--I'd probably just stay away from that one altogether. LOL.

Again, euphemism. It exists because if you use the "wrong" term, you can really tick someone off.

 

[Ice Dance]

Let me get this straight.

I've got a dozen more examples ready, if you want them.

LOL, again, if there was a way to get the rules straight, we wouldn't have so many of them. They're always changing and there's always going to be a risk of a positive and/or negative connotation with any word that makes society uncomfortable.

 

[sabinfire]

Or how about Golden Girls... which was about...

Ah, heck, that was decades ago... I guess the joke never wears thin.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I should probably let someone else answer this one. Lots of gray/dangerous area here. "My girl" can have an endearing, very personal connotation. Or a possessive one. Or an overly possessive one. (Context & tone are going to make a big difference). "My woman"--I'd probably just stay away from that one altogether. LOL.

Again, euphemism. It exists because if you use the "wrong" term, you can really tick someone off.

Oooooh!!! I had never actually thought of it like that!

In my comment, I meant "my" being used in the affectionate way, not in the possessive way. For example, when I talk about "my Liza" on here, I am being affectionate.

I can only assume they were being sarcastic/facetious, plenty of people use the term 'girl' beyond age 12.

You know, the way the conversation has gone on this particular page is a perfect demonstration of the problems of having a conversation through text alone. Even with emoticons, some things can be interpreted in a different way by different people.

With the original comment from IceDance, my initial impression was that they were being serious, and thought "mmmm. That's a strange angle to be taken nowadays". But when sabinfire pointed out that he thought they were being facetious, I thought "ah, that makes more sense". But, it turned out that it was a serious comment after all.

And then Ice Dance interpreted my observation about the use of "my girl", etc. a totally different way to how I intended.

I would hate to be a non-native speaker trying to learn English! Too many words and phrases have vastly differing meanings, and it is hard to know which one is being used in a particular context!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[ice coverage]

One final comment. When Golden mentioned the people that dispense parking tickets, this instantly popped into my head:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se5JLYKQfDU

Is this term still used in America? Despite being popularised in this song, it never caught on over on this side of the Atlantic.

LOL, actually, I never mentioned parking tickets above. I was referring to theater tickets, concert tickets, that kind of thing. Not that it matters.

BUT ... I am old enough to remember the phrase "meter maid" very well.
IIIRC, it was used just as commonly as "stewardess" -- before both expressions died out because of the rise of gender equality and political correctness.

Don't get me wrong: I think it is absolutely fine that these phrases have died out. But the reality is that there was a time when "flight attendants" were virtually all female, and their occupation was known as "stewardess." [When men first started being employed for the positions, there was a phase (at least within my family) of awkwardly saying such things as, "The male stewardess said they didn't have 7-Up" -- because it seemed less odd than the term "steward" in the context of the airline role (although "steward" was/is a familiar word from other contexts). "Flight attendant" eventually gained wide usage as the unisex term.]

Back to meter maids:
- I could be wrong, but I do not believe it was a regionalism. I grew up in the southern U.S.; in my teens, I moved to the northeast. I could swear that I remember both southerners and native New Yorkers using the phrase.
- LOL, I never knew :hopelessness: that it was in a Beatles song.

... I might if i were going to the square dance jamboree, especially if the purty little gal was in her square dancing costume. If the ticket seller were male, he might be the "ticket gent." In square dancing "purty little gals" come in all ages and sizes -- but they're all purty. ...

But I'm purty sure that in this scenario, you would be using "gals" with not so li'l' doses of irony.

---

The discussion of "my girl" is very interesting, but I will try not to get involved in that one.

But will quickly mention that one of my pet peeves re American usage is that "girlfriend" and "boyfriend" are the most common words for the person whom someone is dating ... no matter how old or young the people are. And they are perfectly neutral words.
It would be strange for a 50-yr-old man to say, "I met a new girl" -- meaning a potential romantic interest of similar age.
But if they started dating on a regular basis, it would be perfectly normal (although I don't like it) for him to say, "I met my girlfriend six months ago."