Random Figure Skating Questions

[karne]

Best in the "World" is just a different perspective.

This is a hypothetical petition right?

The World is more than Russia/the US/Japan, you know.

:scowl: :scowl: :scowl:

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

GPF allows the best of the best regardless of nationality to compete. Isn't that enough?

I just don't care where a skater is from at all. I just want to see the best in the biggest event of the year. Maybe if they gave me just one year my curiosity would be satisfied but I just want to see the judges heads explode when the results aren't already so predictable because everyone is that good

Then we could have an all nations event a month later and compare. Maybe everything we know is wrong :think:

http://www.mobygames.com/images/sho...s-screenshot-the-title-of-level-5-says-it.png

The World is more than Russia/the US/Japan, you know.

Yes...I majored in World History at one point

 

[witcher]

GPF allows the best of the best regardless of nationality to compete. Isn't that enough?

GPF isn't as prestigious as Worlds.

This is a hypothetical petition right?

Absolutely. :agree:

 

[gravy]

I just don't care where a skater is from at all. I just want to see the best in the biggest event of the year. Maybe if they gave me just one year my curiosity would be satisfied but I just want to see the judges heads explode when the results aren't already so predictable because everyone is that good

Then we could have an all nations event a month later and compare. Maybe everything we know is wrong :think:



Yes...I majored in World History at one point

 

[andromache]

GPF isn't as prestigious as Worlds.

GPF isn't as prestigious as Worlds, but maybe it should be? It's harder to get there and it results in the best of the best regardless of nationality. 4 Russian ladies last year. And it's likely more than 3 will make it this year. Honestly GPF should be a bigger deal than it currently is. Maybe a few more GPF spots per discipline would make it a bigger deal since there would be more competitors?

 

[Alex D]

Nationals are not International events. They do not have ISU judges on the panel so the scores aren't official by ISU standards.

The ISU only considers personal bests as awarded in ISU competitions with a full international panel, and even then not all -- Challenger event scores can count as PBs, but scores at B events like Autumn Classic or Cup of Nice cannot. And given the state of inflation at some national championships when results are compared against average international marks for a skater or team, I can understand the ISU's hesitancy, except that as Mordovian Ornament demonstrates, equal or worse inflation can show up in a fully-accredited Challenger comp, too. (Of course, it also appears in B events, but again, those don't count towards PBs, so I'll leave that to the side.)

Thanks guys, I will still keep adding the PBs in the Fan Fests but call them unofficial

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Thanks guys, I will still keep adding the PBs in the Fan Fests but call them unofficial

Ah, the old minefield of the term "Personal Best". The baign of anybody making Fan Fests!

The ISU Bios only take into account scores from ISU-run competitions. So, if you get a higher score at a National competition, or an International competition not run by the ISU, it will not count.

Some statisticians have tried to re-dress the balance. For example, Stats On Ice have 2 tables for PB's:

1. "International" competitions (be they ISU or not)
2. "National" competitions

In my Fan Fests, I have gone further and have 3 tables for PB's:

1. "ISU" competitions (Junior / Senior Grand Prix Series; Europeans; Four Continents; Worlds; Junior Worlds; Olympics)
2. "International" competitions (essentially everything else)
3. "National" competitions

Now, before anybody complains, I know that the Olympics are not run by the ISU. They are run by the IOC. But, they are nevertheless one of the "Major" championships in this sport, and the ISU includes them in their Personal Best tables on the ISU Bios. So, that is good enough for me!

I just wish that the ISU would recognise that there are competitions other than the competitions that they run. At the end of the day, not recognising all the achievements of skaters is only succeeding in belittling those achievements. Which is not fair on the skaters. They deserve the recognition.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[tulosai]

GPF isn't as prestigious as Worlds, but maybe it should be? It's harder to get there and it results in the best of the best regardless of nationality. 4 Russian ladies last year. And it's likely more than 3 will make it this year. Honestly GPF should be a bigger deal than it currently is. Maybe a few more GPF spots per discipline would make it a bigger deal since there would be more competitors?

I've wondered what the harm would be in adding a few more spots too, and whether that would indeed increase the prestige of the event. As it stands now, many people including at least some but I suspect most skaters, don't even think it's as big of a deal as Europeans is (for example after winning both last year Liza T said clearly and unambiguously that it was winning Euros that was the best moment of her life so far and that winning the GPF was not as big a deal to her), so something clearly does need to be done for its prestige to increase.

 

[Ice Dance]

GPF allows the best of the best regardless of nationality to compete. Isn't that enough?

Does it? Athletes with host countries on the GP have at least three distinct advantages over athletes without. 1. They have the advantage of a home-country send off into the season. We all know a home-field audience tends to pump up scores. 2. They have access to an extra host-country competitive slot. 3. Host countries have the power to select much of their own champions' competition.

All things are not equal in any figure skating competition, but they are unequal on a regular basis for the same countries on the GP. And it makes a difference. This season--in dance--Coomes & Buckland just defeated the #5 team in the World but have no second spot. (Hopefully to change now that H&D have withdrawn). But will Russia select a team that just defeated a team ranked above their national champions? (I suspect Rostelecom will, but why does an organization from Russia get to decide?) Everyone knows the men's field at TEB is deeper because France is the only host country without a top competitor in the men's event. Likewise, the field in dance at Skate America is weak. How is it H&B are going up against an entire field essentially ranked below them while in most dance competitions there are at least 3 teams who have finished top 6 in the World at some point in the last 3 years? Punsalun & Swallow made the Grand Prix Final for years, despite rarely finishing top 6 at Worlds. Meanwhile, Cappellini & Lanotte have finished behind their world-standing on the GP every season, then surpassed their GPF ranking every year at Worlds.

The GPF has its own distinct advantages. It is the only ISU championship where the number of athletes that can qualify are not limited by country. A difference I wholeheartedly applaud.

But pretending that the qualification process is a fair one "regardless of nationality" is far from the whole picture.

 

[tulosai]

Does it? Athletes with host countries on the GP have at least three distinct advantages over athletes without. 1. They have the advantage of a home-country send off into the season. We all know a home-field audience tends to pump up scores. 2. They have access to an extra host-country competitive slot. 3. Host countries have the power to select much of their own champions' competition.

All things are not equal in any figure skating competition, but they are unequal on a regular basis for the same countries on the GP. And it makes a difference. This season--in dance--Coomes & Buckland just defeated the #5 team in the World but have no second spot. (Hopefully to change now that H&D have withdrawn). But will Russia select a team that just defeated a team ranked above their national champions? (I suspect Rostelecom will, but why does an organization from Russia get to decide?) Everyone knows the men's field at TEB is deeper because it is the only event where there isn't a favorite in the men's event. Likewise, the field in dance at Skate America is weak. How is it H&B are going up against an entire field essentially ranked below them while in most dance competitions there are at least 3 teams who have finished top 6 in the World at some point in the last 3 years? Punsalun & Swallow made the Grand Prix Final for years, despite rarely finishing top 6 at Worlds. Meanwhile, Cappellini & Lanotte have finished behind their world-standing on the GP every season, then surpassed their GPF ranking every year at Worlds.

The GPF has its own distinct advantages. It is the only ISU championship where the number of athletes that can qualify are not limited by country. A difference I wholeheartedly applaud.

But pretending that the qualification process is a fair one "regardless of nationality" is far from the whole picture.

It's not that I wholly disagree (in fact I think I mostly do, though I perhaps don't feel the problem is as big as you do and think you've exaggerated slightly some points- for instance yes, the Skate America Ice Dance field is weak but there are still two tip top teams there- Chock/Bates and Gillies/Porier who will surely beat H/B, and Y/M and S/K may also beat them, so it's not really like this event is likely to help H/B get into the finals. It more actually helps G/P who are pretty much guaranteed 2 second place finishes at their events, having managed to avoid any stacked ones, even though they are not doing Skate Canada and so will have no home advantage, but at this point I digress).

I think there is nothing to be done about the home field advantage bit, since events are going to be in a country no matter what, and since countries without skaters a decent amount of skaters have absolutely no incentive whatsoever to host these events unless the system drastically changes, which I don't see happening. For that reason, while we can acknowledge this, complaining about it really only goes so far since there's no real solution. I guess one could propose that the country would not get a third entry from their country in the disciplines, but I don't see that flying since as things stand now, hosting these events is essentially 100% thankless other than this small bonus and the home field advantage the skaters get. If you take these away, you seriously risk not having a host for the events.

So with that said, how would you propose fixing the second problem that you identify? Would you propose a different process for deciding what skaters are at what events and if so what do you think the process should be?

 

[TheGrandSophy]

Why not seeding based on world rankings like in tennis and then the equivalent of wild cards so each fed can pick some crowd pleasers?

 

[Ice Dance]

I'm not sure how big I feel the problem is. I feel it is one that should be recognized.

So with that said, how would you propose fixing the second problem that you identify? Would you propose a different process for deciding what skaters are at what events and if so what do you think the process should be?

A couple things, I suppose. First, I would expand the fields in dance so that host country slots didn't give some teams gunning for the top ten such an advantage over teams that are legitimately ranked above or alongside them. We could do this in pairs as well if the numbers warrant it, but as has been mentioned several times on this board the competitive dance field has clearly outgrown its 8-team (7 when you discount host spots) per event field. Either that or eliminate the host-country-slot benefit. Either would get the job done. The latter would be more fair, but I suspect the former would be less controversial.

The selection process is sticky because of course the current system benefits a lot of people. Not just host countries but coaches (and athletes of popular coaches), who are clearly sent to limited events with many of their own athletes. I'm sure that isn't the only extra plus either. But if the goal is to be fair and free from bias, then it shouldn't be a matter of invitation. I'm sure selecting a set of unbiased criteria or ranking would result in argument. Rules would have to be established to make travel plausible. But once established, the selection process should be open and based on legitimate skating criteria. At the moment, invitations are more likely based on ticket sales.

 

[tulosai]

I'm not sure how big I feel the problem is. I feel it is one that should be recognized.

That is definitely fair

 

[tulosai]

Why not seeding based on world rankings like in tennis and then the equivalent of wild cards so each fed can pick some crowd pleasers?

The thing about this though it I don't actually like not having the seasons best list count... the World rankings punish and reward certain things and so don't always give the whole picture. For example, though such a thing is rare, there are times when a skater might participate in only one event and win it with a HUGE score. This person would still be very low on the WR list, even if their score was so huge it put them at number 1 on the seasons best list. I do think counting both them and the seasons best list has its advantages since both lists are useful in different ways.

Maybe at this point this actually does deserve its own thread.

 

[ice coverage]

... I am asking as for me, a PB is a PB. If it´s in competition, then it should be noted, no matter if national or international. Cheers for your replies!

The ISU only considers personal bests as awarded in ISU competitions with a full international panel, and even then not all -- Challenger event scores can count as PBs, but scores at B events like Autumn Classic or Cup of Nice cannot. ...

... The ISU Bios only take into account scores from ISU-run competitions. So, if you get a higher score at a National competition, or an International competition not run by the ISU, it will not count.

Some statisticians have tried to re-dress the balance. For example, Stats On Ice have 2 tables for PB's:

1. "International" competitions (be they ISU or not)
2. "National" competitions

In my Fan Fests, I have gone further and have 3 tables for PB's:

1. "ISU" competitions (Junior / Senior Grand Prix Series; Europeans; Four Continents; Worlds; Junior Worlds; Olympics)
2. "International" competitions (essentially everything else)
3. "National" competitions

...

CL_fan, just want to be sure you know that Challenger scores also are included in ISU PBs and ISU SBs.
(blue eyed birds already made this point above, but I think it is worth repeating.)

And FYI for Alex D, two sets of PBs also are in the IN bios for Team USA skaters. The sample excerpt below is from Scimeca/Knierim's IN bio:

IJS PERSONAL BESTS
International Competition

SP - 66.04 (2014 Four Continents Championships)
FS - 127.87 (2015 World Team Trophy)
Final Score - 192.09 (2015 World Team Trophy)​

U.S. Qualifying Competition]

SP - 74.01 (2015 U.S. Championships)
FS - 136.48 (2015 U.S. Championships)
Final Score - 210.49 (2015 U.S. Championships)​

http://web.icenetwork.com/skaters/team/scimeca_knierim​

(IN bios for non-American skaters do not include any PBs, IIRC.)

 

[LiamForeman]

Why not seeding based on world rankings like in tennis and then the equivalent of wild cards so each fed can pick some crowd pleasers?

I can go for that. Or I'd just settle for the top 10 in world rankings automatically get in. The rest of the field can be figured out in some other way.

 

[mrrice]

I have a question about Fan Fests. Do the skaters actually look at them?

 

[mrrice]

Why not seeding based on world rankings like in tennis and then the equivalent of wild cards so each fed can pick some crowd pleasers?

I thought they already had "Host Picks" Is that not correct?

 

[tulosai]

I have a question about Fan Fests. Do the skaters actually look at them?

Some skaters certainly do look at the boards fans post on either here or elsewhere, which we know because some of them mention things fan say on the boards in interviews, but to my knowledge no skater has every come forward publicly and identified themselves here on their fan fest. We do have some known moms on this board, but they are all pretty quiet.

 

[mrrice]

Some skaters certainly do look at the boards fans post on either here or elsewhere, which we know because some of them mention things fan say on the boards in interviews, but to my knowledge no skater has every come forward publicly and identified themselves here on their fan fest. We do have some known moms on this board, but they are all pretty quiet.

Wow! Thanks Tulosai.