Russia Doping Report

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Russia started to reply. The main points:

1. Some of accusations are true but outdated as refer to the past. There were cases of doping use in Russian athletics. That's why measures were taken. Like Russia's fed voluntary banning of some athletes. - I can believe that. It was the case and Russia had only 5 medals in the last WC vs. 17 in the previous one.

2. Some of the accusations are unfounded allegations made without any proof. All these allegations will be answered one by one within a short time.

3. Russia is against doping. There is a proposal to make the use of doping by professional athletes a felony crime with jail sentences. The decision on that will be made soon.

 

[gmyers]

Personally, I am happy to opine that Russian figure skaters are doped, given the strong circumstantial evidence that has come out. But more than anything, I would be happy if the forum could more forthrightly discuss this matter further.

You don't have to speculate. Its clear at least two were suspended for doping. One was yuri larianov.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

http://news.yahoo.com/latest-russian-bank-vtb-end-partnership-iaaf-111305237--spt.html

The people that enabled and I think actually fueled this environment are being scrutinized. It was revealed today that Gabriel Dolle who was the IAAF's head of anti-doping was caught with nearly 80,000 euros in his house. He is being accused of not only bribery but also of extortion in amounts of at least 200,000 euros. It's my opinion that he promoted and downright encouraged the athletes to dope and in return collected profit. I seriously wonder how many other athletes from around the world and their coaches are involved and if they too were extorted. Hopefully his financials are scrutinized and the investigators don't stop with just Russia. This culture needs to change on all levels and I hope hope the stories of a deeper investigation come to fruition. There are 214 federations that are members of IAAF which is the governing body of track and field that Dolle oversaw anti-doping for.

The official IAAF's statement taken from their webpage.

In response to WADA's Independent Commission report issued today, the IAAF President, Sebastian Coe, has taken the urgent step of seeking approval from his fellow IAAF Council Members to consider sanctions against the Russian Athletics Federation (ARAF). These sanctions could include provisional and full suspension and the removal of future IAAF events.

I'm 100% for all of those involved to receive lifetime bans and jail time but is it just me or has this story magically become all about the culture in Russian track and field and not the culture of the sport of track and field that the IAAF has created? Is Interpol investigating them (insert link here) and shouldn't the IAAF face similar sanctions that the Russian Athletics Federation does for their role in this which seems just as criminal? Does Interpol have enough power to do this? This seems like an orchestrated event that reaches far beyond the borders of Russia.


ETA: the Guardien did release an article in the last few hours calling into question Coe's ability to properly address doping. Coe is the newest president of IAAF.

Coe has spent eight years as IAAF vice-president under a man he calls his “spiritual” master, Lamine Diack, who’s now being investigated by the police for massive corruption. And Coe knew nothing about it? If he didn’t know, then he ought to have. As a well-paid consultant to Nike and practised hotel lobby schmoozer, can he be the man to cleanse these Augean stables?

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ritain-corruption-allegations-athletics-sport

 

[solani]

I'm 100% for all of those involved to receive lifetime bans and jail time but is it just me or has this story magically become all about the culture in Russian track and field and not the culture of the sport of track and field that the IAAF has created? Is Interpol investigating them (insert link here) and shouldn't the IAAF face similar sanctions that the Russian Athletics Federation does for their role in this which seems just as criminal? Does Interpol have enough power to do this? This seems like an orchestrated event that reaches far beyond the borders of Russia.


ETA: the Guardien did release an article in the last few hours calling into question Coe's ability to properly address doping. Coe is the newest president of IAAF.



http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ritain-corruption-allegations-athletics-sport

There's another article about Coe in the Guardian. The short interview of Coe is interesting ("You were asleep on the job or corrupt (...)" :dance. And Coe is sponsored by Nike, that's an obvious conflict of interest (Nike is sponsoring Justin Gatlin f.e.). http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/10/sebastian-coe-dcms-select-committee-doping-scandal-nike
I think the media is focusing on Russia right now, but the investigations are going on worldwide. I'm really exited at the moment, because something really DOES seem to happen. I've waited a long time for this.

 

[hurrah]

So I just finished watching:

Alberto Salazar: Doping In Athletics Documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLfbqqAEKwo

(as well as H.Seppelt - The secrets of Doping - The Shadowy World of Athletics - ARD 2015 - ENGLISH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIkiC3iT0GA)

And amongst the many interesting things I found out, I found out that 'biological passport testing' is not good enough to catch cheats, and that the only sure way is to depend on eyewitness accounts and whistleblowers.

Is this still the case or is there now a reliable test that can catch doping?

P.S. I am never going to buy NIKE product again!!

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

There's another article about Coe in the Guardian. The short interview of Coe is interesting ("You were asleep on the job or corrupt (...)" :dance. And Coe is sponsored by Nike, that's an obvious conflict of interest (Nike is sponsoring Justin Gatlin f.e.). http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/10/sebastian-coe-dcms-select-committee-doping-scandal-nike
I think the media is focusing on Russia right now, but the investigations are going on worldwide. I'm really exited at the moment, because something really DOES seem to happen. I've waited a long time for this.

What an interesting web of immorality. Justin Gatlin's story of massages and convicted dopers allowed to continue coaching even though all of their top level athletes violate doping rules. I fear as long as the IAAF is involved in the investigation very little will be done outside of the Russian incidents. This is a corrupt organization which seemingly has people working both sides of the fence for profit first and foremost.

 

[solani]

And amongst the many interesting things I found out, I found out that 'biological passport testing' is not good enough to catch cheats, and that the only sure way is to depend on eyewitness accounts and whistleblowers.

Is this still the case or is there now a reliable test that can catch doping?

No. The answer to the biological passport is microdose doping. An amateur cyclist tried it and had his blood tested by an accredited laboratory anonymously and his values were good. That's why the police, customs and tax investigation are needed in the war against doping.
I followed Paula Radcliffe's career, because she's an inspiring and dedicated athlete and I believe her to be clean. She was harshly criticized because she didn't want her blood values to be publicated. The media even accused her of doping because of it. But her reason to not want her blood values publicated (the WADA agrees with her!) is that the cheats could try to mimic her blood values.

 

[hurrah]

No. The answer to the biological passport is microdose doping. An amateur cyclist tried it and had his blood tested by an accredited laboratory anonymously and his values were good. That's why the police, customs and tax investigation are needed in the war against doping.
I followed Paula Radcliffe's career, because she's an inspiring and dedicated athlete and I believe her to be clean. She was harshly criticized because she didn't want her blood values to be publicated. The media even accused her of doping because of it. But her reason to not want her blood values publicated (the WADA agrees with her!) is that the cheats could try to mimic her blood values.

So there's no medical way to prevent cheats. :sad21:

So one has to depend on circumstantial evidence, and basically make an educated guess as to whether an athlete (including figure skaters) might be cheating, then.

Sudden improvements in performance is a sign, I guess, as well an attitude which appears over-confident or cocky. And maybe think about who their coaches are and who they associate themselves with would be things that I will pay attention to now. And now that I have watched the documentaries, I should think that athletes whose training base is always changing is kind of suspicious as well.

I hate to ask, but is there a possibility that Katerina Witt doped? Her attitude when she was competing was scarily aggressive, but she appears to be a different person now.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

VILLAGER #1: We have found a witch, might we burn her?

CROWD: Burn her! Burn!

BEDEVERE: How do you know she is a witch?

VILLAGER #2: She looks like one.

BEDEVERE: Bring her forward.

WITCH: I'm not a witch. I'm not a witch.

BEDEVERE: But you are dressed as one.

WITCH: They dressed me up like this.

CROWD: No, we didn't -- no.

WITCH: And this isn't my nose, it's a false one.

BEDEVERE: Well?

VILLAGER #1: Well, we did do the nose.

BEDEVERE: The nose?

VILLAGER #1: And the hat -- but she is a witch!

CROWD: Burn her! Witch! Witch! Burn her!

BEDEVERE: Did you dress her up like this?

CROWD: No, no... no... yes. Yes, yes, a bit, a bit.

VILLAGER #1: She has got a wart.

BEDEVERE: What makes you think she is a witch?

VILLAGER #3: Well, she turned me into a newt.

BEDEVERE: A newt?

VILLAGER #3: I got better.

VILLAGER #2: Burn her anyway!

CROWD: Burn! Burn her!

BEDEVERE: Quiet! quiet! Quiet! There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.

CROWD: Are there? What are they?

VILLAGER #2: Do they hurt?

BEDEVERE: Tell me, what do you do with witches?

VILLAGER #2: Burn!

CROWD: Burn, burn them up!

BEDEVERE: And what do you burn apart from witches?

VILLAGER #1: More witches!

VILLAGER #2: Wood!

BEDEVERE: So, why do witches burn?

[pause]

VILLAGER #3: B--... 'cause they're made of wood?

BEDEVERE: Good!

CROWD: Oh yeah, yeah.

BEDEVERE: So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood?

VILLAGER #1: Build a bridge out of her.

BEDEVERE: Aah, but can you not also make bridges out of stone?

VILLAGER #2: Oh, yeah.

BEDEVERE: Does wood sink in water?

VILLAGER #1: No, no.

VILLAGER #2: It floats! It floats!

VILLAGER #1: Throw her into the pond!

CROWD: The pond!

BEDEVERE: What also floats in water?

VILLAGER #1: Bread!

VILLAGER #2: Apples!

VILLAGER #3: Very small rocks!

VILLAGER #1: Cider!

VILLAGER #2: Uhhh, gravy!

VILLAGER #1: Cherries!

VILLAGER #2: Mud!

VILLAGER #3: Churches -- churches!

VILLAGER #2: Lead -- lead!

ARTHUR: A duck.

CROWD: Oooh.

BEDEVERE: Exactly! So, logically...

VILLAGER #1: If... she... weighs the same as a duck.. she's made of wood.

BEDEVERE: And therefore?

VILLAGER #1: A witch!

CROWD: A witch! A witch! A witch!

BEDEVERE: We shall use my largest scales!

[yelling]

BEDEVERE: Right, remove the supports!

[whop] [creak]
CROWD: A witch! A witch!

WITCH: It's a fair cop.

CROWD: Burn her! Burn her!

[yelling]

 

[dorispulaski]

Monty Python is grateful for your quoting their witch-burning sketch from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail," a great movie.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k3jt5ibfRzw

 

[solani]

I hate to ask, but is there a possibility that Katerina Witt doped? Her attitude when she was competing was scarily aggressive, but she appears to be a different person now.

Is there a possibility? Yes. We know that Ingo Steuer doped and they were in the same group. Many of her former fellow figure skaters from East Germany would want her to speak about it, she decided not to do that. There's this documentary in german. It's about Susanne Schnierda, she has a eating disorder, anxiety states, liver tumors and they told her to better not have children. Also about Marie Katrin Kanitz who's now helping other victims of this system and others are mentioned.
But I also want to mention that the skaters of all countries in the 80's were more muscular than they are nowadays. And if Katarina Witt doped it was certainly not her decision to do so. But there is no evidence that she did use PED's, if she did all the records have been destroyed (or they are hidden very well), because there are existing records of other figure skaters from East Germany.

 

[hurrah]

Is there a possibility? Yes. We know that Ingo Steuer doped and they were in the same group. Many of her former fellow figure skaters from East Germany would want her to speak about it, she decided not to do that. There's this documentary in german. It's about Susanne Schnierda, she has a eating disorder, anxiety states, liver tumors and they told her to better not have children. Also about Marie Katrin Kanitz who's now helping other victims of this system and others are mentioned.
But I also want to mention that the skaters of all countries in the 80's were more muscular than they are nowadays. And if Katarina Witt doped it was certainly not her decision to do so. But there is no evidence that she did use PED's, if she did all the records have been destroyed (or they are hidden very well), because there are existing records of other figure skaters from East Germany.

Again, psusanne, thank you for your frankness and honesty. I know asking these specific questions are controversial and I take the point that it can be regarded as kind of witch-hunting; I feel uncomfortable asking it.

And yet, I do feel the need to ask. Perhaps my sympathies and loyalties lie more with the clean athletes, whom I believe exist. Perhaps my sympathies and admiration lie with the former cheats who come clean.

And I would like to do what I can to make sure that I am cheering someone who is not a cheat.

 

[solani]

Again, psusanne, thank you for your frankness and honesty. I know asking these specific questions are controversial and I take the point that it can be regarded as kind of witch-hunting; I feel uncomfortable asking it.

And yet, I do feel the need to ask. Perhaps my sympathies and loyalties lie more with the clean athletes, whom I believe exist. Perhaps my sympathies and admiration lie with the former cheats who come clean.

And I would like to do what I can to make sure that I am cheering someone who is not a cheat.

You're welcome. And I don't see it as witch hunting. It doesn't help anybody to deny the truth or to look away. If Katarina Witt has used PED's she should talk about it (well, maybe she missed her chance), because in my opinion it doesn't take away anything from her achievements. Until the 80's there wasn't even an awareness that using PED's was wrong because it wasn't really seen as gaining an unfair advantage. I heard that you could buy steroids without a prescription in U.S. drugstores. It was a different time, but we have to learn from the past. We all here seem to enjoy figure skating and sports in general and we shouldn't turn a blind eye, because it's easy or because we don't want to be disappointed by our heroes.

 

[hurrah]

Having read around this issue for the past few days, it seems that truly clean athletes are more than happy to prove that they are clean and endorse rigorous testing. They would welcome the opportunity to prove that they are clean.

So a truly clean athlete should have no problems with fans asking if they are clean.

 

[hurrah]

You're welcome. And I don't see it as witch hunting.

:agree:

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Diack's son:

This week Eliane Houlette, one of the prosecutors involved, pointed to evidence from the World Anti-Doping Agency that suggested the 82 year-old’s son Papa Massata approached a female Turkish runner, telling her that she could pay to quash a positive drugs test based on her blood results. The athlete has subsequently been identified as Asli Cakir Alptekin, who won Olympic gold in London in the 1,500 metres, only to be banned for eight years for two blood doping offences. According to Houlette, “it was a kind of blackmail. She refused.”

This is mafia like extortion and intimidation of athletes directly from the IAAF. This organization needs to be punished and face sanctions.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...-doping-scandal-The-worst-is-yet-to-come.html

 

[dorispulaski]

Having read around this issue for the past few days, it seems that truly clean athletes are more than happy to prove that they are clean and endorse rigorous testing. They would welcome the opportunity to prove that they are clean.

So a truly clean athlete should have no problems with fans asking if they are clean.

And you would have no problems being asked how many of your school entrance examinations or professional certification exams you cheated on by some random person, like a fan, that you don't even know?

Or how many times you cheated on your taxes?

Or how many times you cheated on your significant other?

Or how many times you drove drunk?

Everyone I might ask such questions of would be annoyed and upset with me.

And since one cannot prove a negative, it is impossible to prove you indeed never did any of those things. Of course, athletes would be upset. Anyone would be.

 

[tulosai]

And you would have no problems being asked how many of your school entrance examinations or professional certification exams you cheated on by some random person, like a fan, that you don't even know?

Or how many times you cheated on your taxes?

Or how many times you cheated on your significant other?

Or how many times you drove drunk?

Everyone I might ask such questions of would be annoyed and upset with me.

And since one cannot prove a negative, it is impossible to prove you indeed never did any of those things. Of course, athletes would be upset. Anyone would be.

I also think asking these kinds of questions of and about athletes who literally retired decades ago presents its own set of issues. Even assuming they were 'happy' you were asking so that they could deny the accusation (kind of a crazy assumption IMO for the reasons Doris states), how would they even begin to go about proving it at this late date? Would their word be enough for you? Is someone's word in general (with nothing else whatsoever to back it up and when they do in fact have no incentive to tell the truth if it is negative, and perhaps actually have some incentive to lie) ever going to be enough for most people who don't already have intimate knowledge of that person? Do you see how it might be harmful to this athlete to have this suggested about them when they can't prove their innocence even if they are so inclined?

 

[solani]

I think it's a little different for athletes, they are in the spotlight, they are role models, they are persons if interest wether they want it or not. In fact, they want (or wanted it) because they chose to become professional athletes. Therefore they have responsibilities. They want endorsements and attention and love from their fans. I don't say that this is an easy life. I mentioned Paula Radcliffe earlier, because the media really picked on her because she is doing the right thing (not to publish her blood records, because that wouldn't help the WADA). So athletes nowadays are in the unlucky position where they have to justify themselves constantly, because of what was going on in the world of sport in the past. And yes, they cannot prove anything, but they can try to be real and patient. Professional athletes already have to endure a great loss of privacy (they cannot be spontaneous, because of the whereabouts rule, the have to open the door to strangers etc.). And some journalists are nasty, because they just want a story. If there wasn't the doping question they would ask something else and try to provoke.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

I don't feel that it is 'deny(ing) the truth or look(ing) away' to object to posters feeling comfortable deciding that they are going to make 'educated guesses' as to whether athletes are doping. I mean, cockiness? Really? What next? An athlete looks smug when they have just skated well but there are still two athletes to go- ergo they are cocky- ergo they must be a drug cheat? Not exactly far from they have a wart so they must be a witch, is it?

We'd all rather be 100% sure that every athlete we cheer on is clean. Unfortunately, that ain't ever gonna happen. I've been disillusioned before and I'm sure I will be again. We have to rely on the officials (and law enforcement even) cleaning up their acts and catching as many as possible, but there will still probably be a few that fall through the net. The chemists are always one step ahead. One has to live with that and enjoy sport or decide to stop watching because trying to decided by 'educated guess' (what through seeing an athlete's face on the screen and the fact they just did a PB by 5 points? What on earth?!) whether someone dopes is ridiculous and impossible. And to imply that anyone who objects to using guesswork to decide who dopes is somehow not on the side of clean athletes is really infuriating, tbh.