Japanese Nationals 2015-16 Mens fs

[YesWay]

i know the rules... with a performance that contained 2 falls and scratchy landings in the second half, as he was clearly exhausted, i don't think it's worth 96 % in PCS.... that's all. human judgment you said, here's mine, for all it's worth

think of it this way too... when Hanyu does skate flawlessly, he doesn't get much more than 96 PCS.... what kind of message is overscoring a less stellar performance sending... when if he skates as flawlessly as in NHK and GPF he cannot get way more??? the way the judges are scoring nowadays for PCS is flawed

But the only criteria listed for PE, that I think is affected by those would be "Clarity of movement"? Do you disagree?

That's only one bullet point out of 6, and even then - he has to get credit for parts of the program (the majority) that were unaffected by the falls. So how much reduction? I don't think "way less" would be appropriate?

And I note once again, falls and scratchy landings are already punished in TES... through negative GoE and point deductions.

 

[AprilS]

90-92 would have been fine. 95.58 is outrageous, even with home inflation. Sends a terrible message to any viewer and to any competitor of his.

It's like... 3 points and it didn't even make a difference in placements. Why so angry?

 

[whatif]

I wish CanadianSkaterGuy was as concerned about Nationals PCS inflation for a certain skater in the Russian Mens Championships thread. Very selective outrage, if you ask me.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/5a36113d9dc02f85af0ece3c960d6a3b/tumblr_inline_mqq14yJrpu1qz4rgp.gif

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Newsflash: Figure skating is not "every other judged sport", and it has different rules to every other judged sport.

You're right - figure skating isn't like other sports - very few other sports have such a bad public perception of scandalous judging and fixed results. And when you give a guy with 2 falls essentially a perfect score, it substantiates this stereotype and compromises the integrity of this sport. And skating fans lament about how unpopular skating is. :sarcasm:

 

[4everchan]

i disagree... clarity of movement is not the only thing affected....

projection.. when on all four, there's not much reaching out to the audience... ohhhhh and ahhhh when a skater falls isn't the same as loud cheering and a standing ovation.... connection with music on all fours? maybe in EX

Carriage is deeply affected with falls and iffy jumps... getting back up, regaining speed, using cross overs compared to enjoying a long landing edge ... carriage is only fully achieved when a skater skates flawlessly, there should be a deduction there as well IMO

and last but not least, involvement... when a skater is struggling, you cannot say that he is fully involved in all senses of the word from the bookrule... Yuzu was exhausted.... he skated with a lot of courage and fight... but I think we all prefer when he skates with freedom and glide.


So you see, it does affect most of the criteria in major ways to me...


when you think about the fact the skaters have 8 jumping passes, missing 2 of them is missing 25% of them.. it's huge in terms of performance and execution...

But the only criteria listed for PE, that I think is affected by those would be "Clarity of movement"? Do you disagree?

That's only one bullet point out of 6, and even then - he has to get credit for parts of the program (the majority) that were unaffected by the falls. So how much reduction? I don't think "way less" would be appropriate?

And I note once again, falls and scratchy landings are already punished in TES... through negative GoE and point deductions.

 

[evangeline]

I wish CanadianSkaterGuy was as concerned about Nationals PCS inflation for a certain skater in the Russian Mens Championships thread. Very selective outrage, if you ask me.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/5a36113d9dc02f85af0ece3c960d6a3b/tumblr_inline_mqq14yJrpu1qz4rgp.gif

It's especially ironic given this quote:

Scores aren't important, since everyone knows that Russian Nats PCS is ridiculous (eg, Plushenko getting 95 PCS) the performance and placements is what counts.

Looks like Russian Nationals PCS is allowed to be ridiculous, but not Japanese Nationals

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I wish CanadianSkaterGuy was as concerned about Nationals PCS inflation for a certain skater in the Russian Mens Championships thread. Very selective outrage, if you ask me.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/5a36113d9dc02f85af0ece3c960d6a3b/tumblr_inline_mqq14yJrpu1qz4rgp.gif

How is this selective? I've said that Kovtun was ridiculously scored (although, mind you, he actually didn't fall... Twice).

Maybe read my posts before you try to read me, hun.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/47/35/78/473578cb599592197052147f0edf831e.jpg

 

[MaxSwagg]

That's because falls and errors are generally punished in TES, not PCS.

You (and mrrice, and CanadianSkaterGuy) might find it informative to take a look at the criteria used to determine PCS sometime:
They're in the PDF's at the bottom of this ISU page:

Falls are not mentioned, nor are errors. Nor are there any penalties listed for such things.

The criteria are applied to the overall program, and scores given to reward various aspects of the skaters overall performance. You should be able to see, that skaters can indeed earn high PCS scores in spite of errors and falls... according to those criteria. And it doesn't necessarily mean that reputation, inflation, favouritism, etc was involved.

And this is no accident. PCS and TES are supposed to be largely independent, scoring different aspects.

Um, you clearly missed the point and context of my post! I-and the other two you mentioned-clearly know the criteria and rules of this system. Your condescension is outrageous. How about an apology? Try for an apology.

 

[YesWay]

I don't need a more proper case than 2 falls shouldn't be 95.58 PCS. But if you want the main reason it's the fact that falls DO affect the presentation of a program. Same way an ugly position or a meaningless movement should be detrimental to presentation scores.

If you really have read the rules... then tell me which PCS criteria in the rules are affected by falls... and specifically, how Hanyu's falls this time should have affected his PCS criteria but didn't.

I think I should end this argument with you in particular though because anyone who legitimately thinks 95.58 PCS with 2 falls is acceptable under rules of how skating should be judged isn't worth discussing this stuff with. And patronizing me by saying I haven't read the rules (which I have) isn't helping either. Done with you.

End this argument?
What argument?
You have steadfastly refused to justify your claims, to make a proper argument.

Yet again: it is nothing to do with what I "legitimately think", in your made-up Straw Man fallacy - it is everything to do with what is written in the rules, which apparently you have read but disregarded.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Oh, I already hit 1000 posts. Thankfully it wasn't wasted on YesWay's whacko post...

 

[4everchan]

congrats max for reaching 1000 posts nice new photo

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's especially ironic given this quote:



Looks like Russian Nationals PCS is allowed to be ridiculous, but not Japanese Nationals

Kovtun actually skated clean though. So while his scores are ridiculously high, at least they can be expected because he was on Russian ice and went clean with 3 quads. Hanyu fell twice and got 95.68 components score, on Japanese ice.

Also you're taking my quote out of context. My point was that the fact that Kovtun got scores higher wasn't goujg to change the fact that he won. People were using Kovtun's inflation as a means of trivializing his win, and my argument was that the inflated score didn't matter because the *performance* was clean (read my whole post of that). But when the performance isn't clean (and not just one but two falls) and the skater scores near perfect presentation, that shouldn't happen anywhere - not even on home ice and certainly not on Japanese ice. And yes, I regard Japanese judging as a much higher/fairer/more accurate standard than Russian judging. Well, not "much" anymore.

 

[MaxSwagg]

congrats max for reaching 1000 posts nice new photo

Thank you. I was saving it to post in a nice thread (say, Dai's fanfest) but I missed it.

 

[evangeline]

Kovtun actually skated clean though. So while his scores are ridiculously high, at least they can be expected because he was on Russian ice and went clean with 3 quads. Hanyu fell twice and got 95.68 components score, on Japanese ice.

Also you're taking my quote out of context. My point was that the fact that Kovtun got scores higher wasn't goujg to change the fact that he won. People were using Kovtun's inflation as a means of trivializing his win, and my argument was that the inflated score didn't matter because the *performance* was clean (read my whole post of that). But when the performance isn't clean (and not just one but two falls) and the skater scores near perfect presentation, that shouldn't happen anywhere - not even on home ice and certainly not on Japanese ice. And yes, I regard Japanese judging as a much higher/fairer/more accurate standard than Russian judging. Well, not "much" anymore.

So? Hanyu would've still won Japanese Nationals with a huge lead even if you subtracted 5 points from his PCS.

Also, Japanese Nationals has always been inflated like any other national competition. Do you really think Daisuke Takahashi would've EVER gotten 86.90 PCS in 2011-2012 for a terrible performance after falling three times in his LP anywhere outside of Japanese Nationals? See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9mb2JLViVw To put things into perspective, Takahashi was clean at Worlds a few months after and got 85 PCS. Wherever did you ever get the impression that Japanese Nationals was somehow a much fairer standard than Russian Nationals?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

As far as PCS criteria that are disrupted by a fall/major error:

Skating Skills - inability to land a jump (e.g., a fall) shows a lack of blade control and balance

Transitions - a fall results in a missed transition.... Hanyu falling on his SP's 4S negated his exit spread eagle transition... 9.39 TR score means he got 9.5's for transitions in spite of missing a key transition in 1 of his 3 jumping passes

Performance/execution: a fall disrupts physical and emotional involvement in a program - even if it's momentary. If you want to get technical, a fall is an ugly error that exhibits a break in "carriage" and "style".

Choreography: a fall often disrupts the execution of choreography in time with the music, and the effectiveness of choreography... Again to use the 4S as an example, it is far less aesthetic to see a fall than to see Hanyu execute that spread eagle 4S spread eagle as well as he can. So clearly one should earn less marks for choreography that is poorly executed due to an error breaking its seamless execution.

Interpretation: a fall/stumble is a break in interpretation... If you are trying to create a soft, fluid, ethereal interpretation as Hanyu tries to do in his SP, a fall breaks that; if you're trying to exude a sorcerer with dexterity and proficiency and strength, as Hanyu tries to do in his FS, a fall breaks that interpretation.

 

[YesWay]

i disagree... clarity of movement is not the only thing affected....

projection.. when on all four, there's not much reaching out to the audience... ohhhhh and ahhhh when a skater falls isn't the same as loud cheering and a standing ovation.... connection with music on all fours? maybe in EX

Carriage is deeply affected with falls and iffy jumps... getting back up, regaining speed, using cross overs compared to enjoying a long landing edge ... carriage is only fully achieved when a skater skates flawlessly, there should be a deduction there as well IMO

and last but not least, involvement... when a skater is struggling, you cannot say that he is fully involved in all senses of the word from the bookrule... Yuzu was exhausted.... he skated with a lot of courage and fight... but I think we all prefer when he skates with freedom and glide.


So you see, it does affect most of the criteria in major ways to me...


when you think about the fact the skaters have 8 jumping passes, missing 2 of them is missing 25% of them.. it's huge in terms of performance and execution...

I applaud and welcome your reasoned arguments, made in terms of the actual PCS criteria.

I think you have some valid points - particularly "involvement" (and as per my earlier posts I actually thought there might be a case to be made).

However, I'm not convinced the impact of the other aspects you mentioned are that great, considering the program as a whole. The falls were not lengthy, and he was back on his feet, and back to speed very quickly - then right back into the choreography, and back in time with the music. Overall, I think he still maintained a very high level of Projection, Carriage, and Clarity.

What do you think his PE score should have been? He got 9.43 here, and 10.00 at GPF... and bearing in mind eg. Mura got 8.32 and Uno got 8.96.
And how much difference would it have made to his overal score?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So? Hanyu would've still won Japanese Nationals with a huge lead even if you subtracted 5 points from his PCS.

Also, Japanese Nationals has always been inflated like any other national competition. Do you really think Daisuke Takahashi would've EVER gotten 86.90 PCS in 2011-2012 for a terrible performance after falling three times in his LP anywhere outside of Japanese Nationals? See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9mb2JLViVw To put things into perspective, Takahashi was clean at Worlds a few months after and got 85 PCS. Wherever did you ever get the impression that Japanese Nationals was somehow a much fairer standard than Russian Nationals?

That was bad judging but never before have I seen judging as terrible as in Sochi (Sotnikova), Cup of Russia (Lip winning with PB PCS) and Russian nationals (Plu's ridiculous 95 PCS FS). Japan isn't as bad, or at least they don't tend to dole out marks as much as Russia.

Again, it's not the result I disagree with, it's the ridiculous scoring, which as mentioned, from Japan I expected better than that.

 

[Hanmgse]

That was bad judging but never before have I seen judging as terrible as in Sochi (Sotnikova), Cup of Russia (Lip winning with PB PCS) and Russian nationals (Plu's ridiculous 95 PCS FS). Japan isn't as bad, or at least they don't tend to dole out marks as much as Russia.

Again, it's not the result I disagree with, it's the ridiculous scoring, which as mentioned, from Japan I expected better than that.

It's nationals, japanese nationals but still nationals. Overscoring is not surprising really, and the placements are right so I don't have trouble here, if it were an international competition and the overscoring affected the final placements, yes it would be outrageous, here not really tbh.

 

[YesWay]

As far as PCS criteria that are disrupted by a fall/major error:

Skating Skills - inability to land a jump (e.g., a fall) shows a lack of blade control and balance

Transitions - a fall results in a missed transition.... Hanyu falling on his SP's 4S negated his exit spread eagle transition... 9.39 TR score means he got 9.5's for transitions in spite of missing a key transition in 1 of his 3 jumping passes

Performance/execution: a fall disrupts physical and emotional involvement in a program - even if it's momentary. If you want to get technical, a fall is an ugly error that exhibits a break in "carriage" and "style".

Choreography: a fall often disrupts the execution of choreography in time with the music, and the effectiveness of choreography... Again to use the 4S as an example, it is far less aesthetic to see a fall than to see Hanyu execute that spread eagle 4S spread eagle as well as he can. So clearly one should earn less marks for choreography that is poorly executed due to an error breaking its seamless execution.

Interpretation: a fall/stumble is a break in interpretation... If you are trying to create a soft, fluid, ethereal interpretation as Hanyu tries to do in his SP, a fall breaks that; if you're trying to exude a sorcerer with dexterity and proficiency and strength, as Hanyu tries to do in his FS, a fall breaks that interpretation.

Now you're talking.

I think you are focussing too heavily on the mistakes though, which were not that numerous or lengthy... and not enough on what he did the rest of the time.

In terms of the overall program and performance, he still demonstrated very high SS, TR, PE, CH, IN outside of the falls ie. for the majority of the time. According to the criteria for each of those components. There is something to be said for a reduction in PCS (and I did say there may be a case for this, early on)... but given the quality of the program outside of the falls, I don't think any overscoring is so significant as to be called "egregious".

Transitions though... should measure the quality of the transitions he executed, any ones he missed due to a fall should not be a factor - unless he missed so many that his program became empty - and Hanyu has a LOT of transitions so I don't think that's the case here.

Chroerography bullet points are:

• Purpose (idea, concept, vision)
• Proportion (equal weight of parts)
• Unity (purposeful threading)
• Utilization of personal and publicspace
• Pattern and ice coverage
• Phrasing and form (movements and parts structured to match the phrasing of the music)
• Originality of purpose, movement and design

I see what you're saying about choreography - but I don't see it matching up with those bullet points, to have an effect on CH across an overall program. Again - considering choreography he actually did, not choreography he might have done.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's nationals, japanese nationals but still nationals. Overscoring is not surprising really, and the placements are right so I don't have trouble here, if it were an international competition and the overscoring affected the final placements, yes it would be outrageous, here not really tbh.

Overscoring is natural, but rarely is it that egregious in Japanese nationals. That was completely unnecessary for them to prop up Hanyu's scores that significantly in the SP and FS. He would have still won.

It's essentially saying it doesn't matter how he skates, he is going to be rewarded with near perfect marks and his competitors shouldn't even bother.