Your favorite ladies Olympic competition

[Crossover]

That wasn't always the case in the 6.0 era.
Examples: Worlds 96 ladies FS (Kwan did one triple more than Chen), a popped jump wasn't a real problem, as long as the skater did that jump again later in the program. Bajul did that additional triple to win olympic gold in the FS (that's what she said, she said she knew she had to do it to win). Stojko's olympic FS receiving higher technical score than Urmanov's, altough he popped a 3A.

You're right. I should've added "the current judging system" to the sentence. Although I didn't state in my previous post, I also recalled Hanyu's quality over Boyang's quantity who has more quads and higher BV, kind of equivalent to the weight of triple jump numbers in ladies' discipline. By the way, Stojko is so lowballed in my opinion, but we can talk about our favorite men's competition at Olympics soon.

 

[Crossover]

Scores notwithstanding, Mao did far more transitions with great quality in Vancouver.

You're evasive again. So you acknowledge Yuna's popularization of 3-3 and transition with high "scores" recognized by the judges. Didn't you say earlier that judges are always right and better than us? Moreover, in your and jenaj's theory, Mao's programs at Vancouver are nothing transformative at all because Ito is the first "pioneering" lady to land her triple axel at competition including Olympics even though she reintroduced the almost extinct jump in ladies' figure skating.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

You're evasive again. So you acknowledge Yuna's popularization of 3-3 and transition with high "scores" recognized by the judges.

I'm confused. Are you saying she popularized doing transitions into a 3-3 and earning a high score? Because she does about 7 back crossovers into that combination.

 

[LiamForeman]

Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive here, but this particular phrase smacks of slight racism/sexism, though I'm sure it was unintentional. In general, I would avoid using the word "exotic" to describe a person. Cheers!

Yes, you are being overly sensitive.... Unless you'd also consider someone describing Javi as a smooth Italian hottie as being racist and sexist. Amazing that someone can give a compliment and someone always takes offense to it. FWIW I think Lu Chen is one of the most beautiful skaters ever, but I guess that's being 'sexist'?

I suppose my favorite was 1998. Kwan and Lipinski went clean, Chen had a great comeback, and Bute was pretty great herself with her cool Russian beauty (oops racism and sexism again...)

 

[Crossover]

I'm confused. Are you saying she popularized doing transitions into a 3-3 and earning a high score? Because she does about 7 back crossovers into that combination.

You're not correctly responding to my questions to you. It has been nothing news to me though. I guess I won't get your answer regarding your previous claim that judges's evaluations are always correct as opposed to your "assertion" against Mao's score and how you perceive Mao's programs at Vancouver if you stick to your own rule. Yuna was capable of many crossovers because she was the fastest skater in the field and masterful of her blades while doing many other transitions.

 

[LiamForeman]

I'm sure there are tons of posters who could educate you on proper usage of offensive/non-offensive words but exotic carries the connotation of otherness, foreignness, or being different than the norm. Which raises 2 questions - are you not used to seeing Asian people? That's the only reason why I would imagine someone using the word "exotic" to describe them. And secondly, if we are operating by that definition, why is she different than the norm? Because the norm is white? That is what I find problematic about your statement. So yes, when men have hit on me by calling me exotic or international I decline. I suggest you excise it from your vocabulary.

Hmm. Two of my favorite screen actresses are Ava Gardner and Rita Hayworth, both of whom I would call "exotic beauties". I don't need an education on political correctness either.

 

[Ophelia]

Yes, you are being overly sensitive.... Unless you'd also consider someone describing Javi as a smooth Italian hottie as being racist and sexist. Amazing that someone can give a compliment and someone always takes offense to it. FWIW I think Lu Chen is one of the most beautiful skaters ever, but I guess that's being 'sexist'?

Javi is Spanish...

The West has a long history of Orientalism and "exoticizing" Asian women. Calling an Asian "exotic" plays into a different historical context than calling Ava Gardner or Rita Hayworth "exotic". Plus, there's nothing exotic about Lu Chen besides the fact that she's Chinese and that's it. She isn't even Uyghur Chinese; if she were I could understand where "exotic" is coming from. AC96 is not being overly sensitive; culturally aware is more like it.

 

[Mathman]

Taking off from a correct edge on the lutz isn't transformative.

Maybe "transformative" isn't the right word. But what an edge she had! What perfect and complete revolutions in the air! What a gorgeous landing edge! If transformative means that everyone aspires to the same perfection on their triple Lutz/triple toe combination and on their triple flip, then I think the term is not so far off. She "transformed" being satisfied with sloppy jumps into trying to do Yuna-precise jumps. There is a reason that she got +3 GOEs on everything in 2010. She "transformed" the IJS in that she forced the ISU to lower the values of GOEs in the future lest others come along and blow the top off the scoring system like Yuna did.

To be fair, a lot of people think Medvedeva is transformative but I think it is more she has a tremendous ability to back-load her programs and 'tano everything.

Evgenia hasn't transformed anything yet, but she is just so cool!. There is something different about her, to me -- I don't know exactly what. :yes:

 

[jenaj]

Maybe "transformative" isn't the right word. But what an edge she had! What perfect and complete revolutions in the air! What a gorgeous landing edge! If transformative means that everyone aspires to the same perfection on their triple Lutz/triple toe combination and on their triple flip, then I think the term is not so far off. She "transformed" being satisfied with sloppy jumps into trying to do Yuna-precise jumps. There is a reason that she got +3 GOEs on everything in 2010. She "transformed" the IJS in that she forced the ISU to lower the values of GOEs in the future lest others come along and blow the top off the scoring system like Yuna did.

Gosh, I hate to disagree with Mathman, but the system, not Yuna, made being satisfied with sloppy jumps unsustainable. I seriously doubt that the perfection of Liza Tuk's triple lutz was inspired by anything other than the points, including the positive GOE's she was likely to garner from landing it. Likewise with the scoring revisions. It was a glitch in the system that allowed Yuna, with a fall and a popped axel, to place above Mao in the long program at 2010 Worlds. That is the likely reason why the value of GOE's was lowered.

 

[MiRé]

2010 was my favorite! The battle between two ladies (or two countries....) surely made the media heat up like crazy!

RE: transformative,
Let's just say, everyone will have their own opinions, but let's not discredit skaters' achievements. What Yuna contributed to this sport and for her country shouldn't be left out. I mean, have you seen the list of entries for South Korean Nationals this year? 36 Senior ladies and 47 Junior ladies are participating this year. Compare that to 6,7,8,9 years ago where the entry barely exceeded 20.......... something to think about

 

[MaxSwagg]

I'm confused. Are you saying she popularized doing transitions into a 3-3 and earning a high score? Because she does about 7 back crossovers into that combination.

With a toe hammer as well.

 

[Cherryy]

I'd go with 2014 over 2010 simply because it was more fun. You basically knew Yuna would win in 2010 even if Mao went clean, at least this is what the scores indicate.

Furthermore, after Mao's FS at Sochi I finally realized that what Peggy said in 2002 is true. Success isn't always measured by a gold medal. Transfer it to other life situations (not literally) and live by these words :agree2:.

 

[bara1968]

It was a glitch in the system that allowed Yuna, with a fall and a popped axel, to place above Mao in the long program at 2010 Worlds. That is the likely reason why the value of GOE's was lowered.

Well, I don't want to be off-topic, but I don't think that you have your case here. To prove what you are claiming, Yuna should have won FS at 2010 worlds by TES even with her errors, but that was not the case. Yeah, Yuna fell on 3S - the weakest triple planned - in 2010 worlds but Mao got UR and negative GOE for her 3A+2T as well. Their BV difference was pretty much negligible because of this - Mao had 2.25 points more - and then including GOE, Mao still got more TES. The difference became bit smaller within 1 points as Yuna got all of her money jumps - two 3Lz including combination, 2A+3T - and got very good GOE there, rightfully so.

However, even if you rescale GOE (like nowadays) and give smaller GOEs for both skaters, these results would not change. Yuna won FS there not because of GOE, but because of PCS. Her PCS edge over Mao was bigger than the difference between their BV. Whatever scale you may apply to GOE in that competition, Yuna would win the FS. If you do not agree with the call on Mao's 3A or on their PCS, this is really different story which has nothing to do with GOE scales. This result did not change the overall result anyways, and I can hardly see it as the system's fault regarding GOE scale.

GOE scale got changed after Vancouver pretty much because of Yuna's gigantic scores from 2010 Olympics. Now that Hanyu is getting crazy scores, I am pretty sure that there would be on-going discussion with the scoring system as well.

Back to the topic : My favorite ladies competition was 2010, and then 1998. There were exciting rivalries, great performances, dramas, etc. Performance-wise, 2014 comes close too, but judging controversy was way too much to bear. However, I must note that I still frequently watch Yuna, Caro, Mao's FS at 2014 (SP from Yuna as well).. I was very happy to see Mao finally skating within her full potential there (FS). I hope she can pull it off again!!!

 

[skateluvr]

Mathman, please feel free to PM me if you would like to. I've always respected you as a poster and held your opinions in high esteem but this is one topic where you're off-base. This will be the last post I will make in this thread for the sake of the people in it.[/QUOTE

Excellent point Mathman. In the early 90s there were few top Asian skaters. So we as north Americans saw a line of champions from European backgrounds before Asian countries took over the podiums in singles and pairs to some extent. Michelle Kwan's beauty and her Asian look was very appealing to mainstream white skating fans. Lulu was the first Asian world champion I recall. And while exotic is a dated term it isn't racist.

And you take me on and imply I'm racist but Mathman is respected and deserves a pm? Treat everyone the same and don't be touchy yourself. As I read this Donald Trump was terrifying me. As a disabled person this billionaire will help the super rich I am sure. I just wanted to point out a real racist in our midst getting by. And while he may not be pandering to the gay community he has said nothing negative. I hoped that this topic would be talked about internationally because we may have a frightening man elected in AMERICA. I am frustrated and truly frightened real racists are doing so well in America.

So I won't respond again but I can see that exotic is a dated term but in terms of women's world champions they were all of European descent until Lu Chen. Michelle Kwan inspired thousands of female Asian skaters and I do think her beauty as a Chinese girl then woman was a part of her popularity here in America. Oops I forgot Kristi yamaguchi who for some reason perhaps racism did not seem to get the endorsements. But then I have to say she became more beautiful with maturity and even a better skater. Off topic but I have seen her lack of endorsements discussed. The face of the female champion is now an Asian face and I think Lulu led that inclusiveness of Asian skaters.

No offense intended and I hope people are not looking for constant political correctness and to be offended. Sadly one of my doctors from a liberal state and others like that man because he says what others think but won't say. Reality television spawned this.

Anyway I apologized if I offended you 96 but it would be nice if you respected all posters even if they come from a different perspective than you. And as for the cheeseburger comment yes we have seen the women get skinnier with every generation. Eating disorders are all too common. I am disturbed by legs of the current Russian phenom but she is young. Lulu always looked well and healthy in my memory. And truly a stunning beauty. With that I end comment on the word. When Lulu came to American screens in figure skating she was "other" than most champions. And I do know Asian people from various countries. :thumbsup:

 

[skateluvr]

nowadays, we just do not use the term exotic.. nor oriental. It's offensive. No need arguing this. Let's move on.

NATHALIE KRIEG ... second best spinner ever

Now I will have to you tube her. I don't recall the name. Second best? I assume Lucinda Ruh is the best but also who comes to mind Is Diane Biellman then Stephane Lambiel and the USA did have Todd Eldridge considered one of the best ever male spinners. I adored Lucinda and Diane for the total package both were. Lucinda is mesmerizing even without triple jumps. She was so elegant. Nathalie I will be looking for. Thanks for bringing up the name. Learned something new here.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Excellent point Mathman. In the early 90s there were few top Asian skaters. So we as north Americans saw a line of champions from European backgrounds before Asian countries took over the podiums in singles and pairs to some extent. Michelle Kwan's beauty and her Asian look was very appealing to mainstream white skating fans. Lulu was the first Asian world champion I recall. And while exotic is a dated term it isn't racist.

The top two skaters of the early 90s were of Asian descent.

 

[skateluvr]

I'd go with 2014 over 2010 simply because it was more fun. You basically knew Yuna would win in 2010 even if Mao went clean, at least this is what the scores indicate.

Furthermore, after Mao's FS at Sochi I finally realized that what Peggy said in 2002 is true. Success isn't always measured by a gold medal. Transfer it to other life situations (not literally) and live by these words :agree2:.

Did Peggy quote Sandra Bezic? I always thought Sandra said that before Michelle did her ex program to "Fields of Gold."

 

[Enidan]

Of course 1998! Love the joy and the excitement of that competition. I think that is the best olympic of all time!

 

[Mathman]

Here is Chen Lu now, pictured with some of her students at her skating facility in Shenzhen (near Hong Kong). Same prominent cheekbones, same deep dimples. Add Lulu to the list of "fine wine" ladies who become more fascinating as they acquire maturity.

http://photogiving.smugmug.com/photos/223838453-M.jpg

http://photogiving.smugmug.com/photos/223843369-M.jpg

 

[jenaj]

Well, I don't want to be off-topic, but I don't think that you have your case here. To prove what you are claiming, Yuna should have won FS at 2010 worlds by TES even with her errors, but that was not the case. Yeah, Yuna fell on 3S - the weakest triple planned - in 2010 worlds but Mao got UR and negative GOE for her 3A+2T as well. Their BV difference was pretty much negligible because of this - Mao had 2.25 points more - and then including GOE, Mao still got more TES. The difference became bit smaller within 1 points as Yuna got all of her money jumps - two 3Lz including combination, 2A+3T - and got very good GOE there, rightfully so.

However, even if you rescale GOE and give smaller GOEs for both skaters, these results would not change. Yuna won FS there not because of GOE, but because of PCS. Her PCS edge over Mao was bigger than the difference between their BV. Whatever scale you may apply to GOE in that competition, Yuna would win the FS. If you do not agree with the call on Mao's 3A or on their PCS, this is really different story which has nothing to do with GOE scales. This result did not change the overall result anyways, and I can hardly see it as the system's fault regarding GOE scale.

GOE scale got changed after Vancouver pretty much because of Yuna's gigantic scores from 2010 Olympics. Now that Hanyu is getting crazy scores, I am pretty sure that there would be on-going discussion with the scoring system as well.

Back to the topic : My favorite ladies competition was 2010, and then 1998. There were exciting rivalries, great performances, dramas, etc. Performance-wise, 2014 comes close too, but judging controversy was way too much to bear. However, I must note that I still frequently watch Yuna, Caro, Mao's FS at 2014 (SP from Yuna as well).. I was very happy to see Mao finally skating within her full potential there (FS). I hope she can pull it off again!!!

It's pretty much speculation as to the reasons for the scoring change unless someone knows first hand. But there is no way Kim's long program at 2010 Worlds should have scored higher than Mao's, with a triple axel, no fall and no popped jump.