2016 Team Challenge Cup - Gen Info/Pre-chat

[Perdita]

Well, Simon Cowell and Gordon Ramsay are British... As a big reality show fan (I'm a Japanese not an American!), popularity contests for singers, entertainers or ice show skaters sound fun to me, but I start to get baffled when they introduce fan voting for athletes. I understand ISU is trying to make a casual, entertaining game at the end of the season, and yes, sport and popularity go hand in hand, but fan voting for a sport competition crosses the line to me. I think I would have liked the fan voting if the competition format was something like Medal Winners Open, which is more like a gala competition rather than a sport event (but not sure if the competition itself would be as fun in that case).

 

[Sorrento]

I understand ISU is trying to make a casual, entertaining game at the end of the season, and yes, sport and popularity go hand in hand, but fan voting for a sport competition crosses the line to me.

Then maybe it's not a real competition? I mean- do they count those results for international ranking? If not- it's only a fan pleasing and money winning kind of event.

 

[Perdita]

Then maybe it's not a real competition? I mean- do they count those results for international ranking? If not- it's only a fan pleasing and money winning kind of event.

No, they don't and I understand it's not a serious competition. Just like WTT. However, these skaters come to this event as an athlete, not as an show skater or entertainer and somehow that baffles me. It's just my feeling though!

 

[Lexiglass]

This reasoning defies the logic of democracy: 1 person - 1 vote. Imagine the U.S. president could be elected based on who truly likes the candidate and can vote 100 times for him/her. As for results, I think it is up to the organizers to decide if they want to make this new competition a success. The logic of sport is to let the best win. We have not had the worlds yet - ankle problems and something like that may happen. But at this particular moment based on the GPF, europeans, B competitions, and point scores achieved I believe that Russian women are the strongest in the world. And they are lead this season by Evgenija and Elena with Anna's scoring once 214. Russia represents Europe. Having European ladies team consisting of non-performing Liza, Rodegheiro, and Kuchvalska who just got only the 7th place in the junior worlds (would barely get into top 10 if 2 leaders did not WD) is a joke. And I will have little interest to watch it as it will not be sport - just some show. I am sure this individual threat is laughable to the organizers. But I am sure as well that if they want to have it in place for the years to come they should apply some common sense to how the teams will look like...the reason for my post is that Kuchvalska has almost surpassed Radionova now.

The organizers of this competition decided to compromise having the "best of the best" for having a diversity of nations represented for each continent. Ashley Wagner is a much stronger skater than Gabby Daleman, but she has to fight for the fan vote just like Elena Radionova. I like that some smaller federations will get the opportunity to be represented, and that skaters will have the opportunity to compete with skaters they may not otherwise interact with very often. I don't think it will be very meaningful if Team North America beats Team Europe or if Team Asia runs away with it tbh. At the end of the day, it will be an opportunity for individual skaters to show off their skills, and hopefully a fun event for fans to watch. I don't think every competition has to be worlds.

 

[Sorrento]

No, they don't and I understand it's not a serious competition. Just like WTT. However, these skaters come to this event as an athlete, not as an show skater or entertainer and somehow that baffles me. It's just my feeling though!

Perhaps it really hurts when it is about your favorites whose participation depends on any kind of voting. And if they don't get enough votes then it upsets the fans. My heart is not hurting though, I really wanted to see Yuzu and Javi in TCC but they declined the invitation so I just had to let go.

 

[ice coverage]

I think that a vote, deciding about how "good" or "worthy" someone is, is wrong. ..

Personally, I hope that the skaters have a thick enough skin, to just ignore the haters or votes about their "worth". ...

I don't equate the TCC voting with a decision by any individual voter as to whether a skater is "worthy."

Not voting for Skaters Y or Z does not mean that I believe Y and Z are unworthy of competing at TCC.
My vote for Skater X means nothing more than that of the three skaters on the ballot, it would be most fun for me to see X have the opportunity to compete in the TCC format.

(Considering that skaters have chosen to devote themselves to a judged sport, I do agree with your hope that they have thick skins.)

... ... The vote you guys discuss here, is therefore so typical for your country (please don´t get offended now) popularity contests were created in the US I think

Well, Simon Cowell and Gordon Ramsay are British... As a big reality show fan (I'm a Japanese not an American!), popularity contests for singers, entertainers or ice show skaters sound fun to me, but I start to get baffled when they introduce fan voting for athletes. I understand ISU is trying to make a casual, entertaining game at the end of the season, and yes, sport and popularity go hand in hand, but fan voting for a sport competition crosses the line to me. I think I would have liked the fan voting if the competition format was something like Medal Winners Open, which is more like a gala competition rather than a sport event (but not sure if the competition itself would be as fun in that case).

For better or worse, fan voting for athletes is not unfamiliar in American sports culture.

Fan voting determines who the players are in the annual All-Star games of Major League Baseball and of the National Basketball Association, for example.

That said, I would add to Perdita's point re Simon Cowell and Gordon Ramsay:
American Idol (under a different name ) and DWTS both originated in Great Britain. Their immense popularity and success over there led to the launch of the U.S. copycat versions.

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The organizers of this competition decided to compromise having the "best of the best" for having a diversity of nations represented for each continent. Ashley Wagner is a much stronger skater than Gabby Daleman, but she has to fight for the fan vote just like Elena Radionova. I like that some smaller federations will get the opportunity to be represented, and that skaters will have the opportunity to compete with skaters they may not otherwise interact with very often. I don't think it will be very meaningful if Team North America beats Team Europe or if Team Asia runs away with it tbh. At the end of the day, it will be an opportunity for individual skaters to show off their skills, and hopefully a fun event for fans to watch. I don't think every competition has to be worlds.

:agree:

 

[Mathman]

* Thread management is underway.*

 

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I like that some smaller federations will get the opportunity to be represented, and that skaters will have the opportunity to compete with skaters they may not otherwise interact with very often.

I gave up on this already but just for the sake of argument.... I see a lot about small federations here and there and don't get it. There is logic in holding more than 3 from one country so that small fed guys have a chance to compete. The only alternative which keeps them aboard is to increase the total number of skaters which means either longer competitions or selection round. Both will cost more money, FS is not a big money-maker so it's not viable. OK - I don't think it's fair but we discussed it more than once. In this particular case though I see very little logic. Why would Kuchvalska need to be more represented? She is one of the most heavily competing skaters this season: GP, Bs, Europeans, Youth Olympics, Junior worlds, senior worlds. If we had senior Olympics this year she would go there as well. With what skaters has she few chances to interact? She competes with all juniors and seniors. I don't get this argument. And once again you cannot compare the situation in ladies with Hanyu's and Fernandes' WD. If someone asked Medvedeva and Radionova and they refused then it would be similar. But anyway I won't continue. This competition is similar to what they had as team event in the Youth Olympics when team Desire won: just fun not to be taken as a serious competition....with one little difference which in fact is not little at all: they seem to pay quite good money for that. Then it's suddenly quite a different story. Or am I wrong and there are no big pay checks?

 

[Mathman]

...with one little difference which in fact is not little at all: they seem to pay quite good money for that. Then it's suddenly quite a different story. Or am I wrong and there are no big pay checks?

That is an interesting point. The prize money is

Short Program

1st place team: $10,000 per skater (only ladies and men compete)
2nd place team: $7000 per skater
3rd place team: $5000 per skater

Plus a $5000 bonis for individual man and lady with highest individual score.

LP/Free Dance

1st place: $15,000 per athlete
2nd place: $10,000 per athlete
3rd place: $7500 per athlete

Bonus for highest individual score: $5000 for singles skater, $10,000 per atlete for winning pairs performance and for winning dance performance.

So I don't know. If you are, say LIza Tuktamysheeva, would you rather have Medvedeva on your team (to increase your team's chances) or would you rather have Kuchvalska (to increase your chance of winning the individual bonuses)?

 

[el henry]

I know who I like.
I like Misha.
He has skated, what, twice this year? I haven't had opportunities to see him skate.
I don't care what the format is, or who else is in the running, or its impact on any team's chances. I want to see Misha skate. And I am invited to vote for the skater I want to see. Early and often. And I am

 

[winky97]

That is an interesting point. The prize money is

Short Program

1st place team: $10,000 per skater (only ladies and men compete)
2nd place team: $7000 per skater
3rd place team: $5000 per skater

Plus a $5000 bonis for individual man and lady with highest individual score.

LP/Free Dance

1st place: $15,000 per athlete
2nd place: $10,000 per athlete
3rd place: $7500 per athlete

Bonus for highest individual score: $5000 for singles skater, $10,000 per atlete for winning pairs performance and for winning dance performance.

So I don't know. If you are, say LIza Tuktamysheeva, would you rather have Medvedeva on your team (to increase your team's chances) or would you rather have Kuchvalska (to increase your chance of winning the individual bonuses)?

Actually, if I were Tuktamyesheva I would want Radionova on my team to increase chances of team winning, but still have a good chance at individual bonus.

 

[Mathman]

PS: I do, however, agree with Lexiglass' point about spreading out continental representation among different countries. Yes, it's kind of gimmicky, but otherwise the ladies' would be a competition between Russia, Japan, and the U.S. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose, but … been there, done that (a month before at Worlds, for instance).

 

[Mathman]

Actually, if I were Tuktamyesheva I would want Radionova on my team to increase chances of team winning, but still have a good chance at individual bonus.

:agree: Another interesting detail is that the prize money is to be paid by the United States Figure Skating Association to the skaters' National Skating Federations. So technically, if the North American team wins, the USFSA will be cutting itself a big check. :yes:

 

[ice coverage]

That is an interesting point. The prize money is

Short Program

1st place team: $10,000 per skater (only ladies and men compete)
2nd place team: $7000 per skater
3rd place team: $5000 per skater

Plus a $5000 bonis for individual man and lady with highest individual score.

LP/Free Dance

1st place: $15,000 per athlete
2nd place: $10,000 per athlete
3rd place: $7500 per athlete

Bonus for highest individual score: $5000 for singles skater, $10,000 per atlete for winning pairs performance and for winning dance performance.

So I don't know. If you are, say LIza Tuktamysheeva, would you rather have Medvedeva on your team (to increase your team's chances) or would you rather have Kuchvalska (to increase your chance of winning the individual bonuses)?

An additional wrinkle is that the lowest FS score for each man and each lady on each team does not count toward the team FS/FD score.

---

As for the smaller feds:

In the foreseeable future, Latvia, Israel, and Uzbekistan will not be qualifying for WTT or the Olympic team event.
Thanks to TCC, Kuchvalska, Bychenko, and Ge have at least a chance to compete in a senior team event.

And thanks to TCC, Denis, Elizabet, and Michal will compete at a senior team event.

---

That said, I am voting for Boyang :yay:.

 

[winky97]

PS: I do, however, agree with Lexiglass' point about spreading out continental representation among different countries. Yes, it's kind of gimmicky, but otherwise the ladies' would be a competition between Russia, Japan, and the U.S. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose, but … been there, done that (a month before at Worlds, for instance).

I am all for spreading out continental representation. The initial rules put in place clearly were trying to accomplish this and it is a good idea. What bothers me is what seems to be happening in the European ladies fan vote section is that a country is being voted against, as opposed to a specific skater being voted for. Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth regardless of how small the event.

 

[Mathman]

...I see a lot about small federations here and there and don't get it. There is logic ..

To be honest, I don't think that logic has much to do with it. With respect to the World Championships, the reason that the rules for participation are as they are is not because of logic or of fairness, but rather because the ISU is not an organization of individuals but an organization of National Skating Federations. One Federation, one vote.

This is why compulsory figures were eliminated, for instance. The small federations wanted to abolish them while the larger federations wanted to keep them. Majority (of ISU Members) prevailed. (Yes, there was something about television revenue, too.)

Anyway, the logic of the Great Inter-Continental Mega-Championship is, let's put it out on the stoop and see if the cat licks it up.

 

[Mathman]

An additional wrinkle is that the lowest FS score for each man and each lady on each team does not count toward the team FS/FD score.

Oh, that's huge. I didn't notice this before. This way, a weaker skater will not have to feel bad about costing his or her team the title. Just skate your best and leave the audience wanting more.

 

[ice coverage]

Oh, that's huge. I didn't notice this before. This way, a weaker skater will not have to feel bad about costing his or her team the title. Just skate your best and leave the audience wanting more.

BTW, the lower pair and dance scores for each team do not count toward the team score either.

(I did not bother to mention so earlier, b/c the emphasis of the recent thread discussion happens to be the fan voting.)

[Apologies for my clumsy wording in this post and my last one, but I got the idea across. ]

 

[CoyoteChris]

:agree: Another interesting detail is that the prize money is to be paid by the United States Figure Skating Association to the skaters' National Skating Federations. So technically, if the North American team wins, the USFSA will be cutting itself a big check. :yes:

Is there a lawyer in the house? Reading page 3 of the PDF, It SOUNDS like the USFS will Pay the prize money to the ISU members of the winners and they will pay the skaters, but the USFS is responsible for withholding tax. It does not say that the USFS has to come up with the prize money, or it comes as a lump from the ISU. It also says that if you are chosen for the exhibition and dont show, you loose half your prize money. $617,000 is a chunk of change...I would love to know the economics of this event from the frame of reference of the ISU, USFS, and the promoters.....The tickets are cheep....follow the money and the TV rights.
http://static.isu.org/media/1038/2016-team-challenge-cup-announcement-final_16-02-19_revised.pdf

 

[Alex D]

So true, but I believe that you are thinking of those rude, crude dudes from New Jersey. Folks from Spokane are the soul of politeness. It will be our pleasure and delight to give each of the competitors, no matter which continent they represent, a commemorative Spokane Lilac Festival Drinking Glass with Straw.

http://calendar.spokanelilacfestival.org/uploads/3/4/7/3/34735069/__7429371.jpg

Seriously, though, I think you are right about America's love of popularity for its own sake. Whoever is the most poplular is the MOST POPULAR!

I have to say, when I was living in the US, I never felt unwelcome as a German and it is incredible how helpful your kind was back then. Needed a place to crash, here you go, needed help with a job, here you go, wanted to join me and my friends, here you go. I still admire that way of life and I was very surprised by it and if I go to the US these days, I still find the same friendly environment in your country.

At the same time, I did wonder why parents dress their kid like a Barbie and let her do all kinds of things, just to be elected for some title and another "show your kid" show.

Different cultures are a part of our world and it takes time and will, to understand them. Until someone does, things that someone else does, can look strange or wrong and I suppose that´s the reason for all those things that currently happen in our world. People no longer try to understand someone else, so people clash. That being said, I wish people in Germany would have the guts to get on their feet and show what they really think, it´s so depressing to see what happens back at home with my country. No wonder that so many leave home and relocate somewhere else.

@ topic,

it was very interesting to hear about the price money, but 15.000 is like nothing compared to 100k that you get for a simple "show up" at other sports.