Sensors on Skate Boots for GOE Purposes!

[JayW]

Since speed, height, ice coverage, underrotation, wrong/right edge......are such big part of GOE, isn't that possible to put a sensor(s) on a skater's boots so that the speed, height, ice coverage, edge, rotation and edge can be monitored in real time. It will completely eliminate human errors or cheating.

Technically it is quite feasible.

 

[ruffledgrouse]

Since speed, height, ice coverage, underrotation, wrong/right edge......are such big part of GOE, isn't that possible to put a sensor(s) on a skater's boots so that the speed, height, ice coverage, edge, rotation and edge can be monitored in real time. It will completely eliminate human errors or cheating.

Technically it is quite feasible.

My dad and I were joking that is the winter Olympics ever went back to Japan they would probably build a rink with pressure sensitive ice just for that purpose (since their bid for the World Cup apparently included holograms). Putting the sensors on the skaters boots would make more sense as long as it didn't interfere with the skaters.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I think this should be being discussed.

We likely could do a lot of what you say, but it would have an impact. I suspect that it would still add weight/feel different and likely would be something that would need to be on the skater's boot all the time. I don't think sticking it on at competition would work... too much of a sudden change. So doing it all the time would be a cost issue, including for up and coming nations. One option might be to have a a way to attach a cheap weighted simulator that you can use to train on.

I don't think it would be hard to do tech wise, but getting people to adopt it would be tricky.

On this topic. What is Dartfish really? What can it do and not do? I really want to know more about it and how it works, cuz it sounds awesome.

 

[sandraskates]

This is an intriguing idea!

I've seen skaters with Reidell boots that have a pretty little bar with 3 rhinestones, attached to the laced part that is nearest the toe. So how about we swap out the 3 rhinestones with 3 sensors?? It would not interfere with the skater.

Could this be the million dollar idea I've been looking for?

Or a tiny sensor could be mounted on the boot sole; maybe on the inner part of the heel where the blade does not connect. The more I think about this the more ideas that pop into my head.

 

[NanaPat]

I believe Craig Bunton (Megan Duhamel's previous pairs partner, no retired) is developing something like that.

CBC did an interview with him (maybe when Skate Canada was in Kelowna, as he is from Kelowna).

It may be hard to sell it as a judging tool, but should be useful in training.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

Who knows what they will come up with in future - but with all the pounding that boots as well as the blades themselves take I don't know if this could work. The men in particular with huge jumps, like quads, and the force that comes down on the boot - how would such a sensor stay in place?

Perhaps if skaters simply aren't allowed to move up unless they can demonstrate correct edges on jumps as they progress - that might be an idea. Coaches who don't teach proper technique at the beginner levels - they should perhaps be re-trained themselves. Be certified in teaching proper edge technique before they can coach young skaters.

 

[gkelly]

Who knows what they will come up with in future - but with all the pounding that boots as well as the blades themselves take I don't know if this could work. The men in particular with huge jumps, like quads, and the force that comes down on the boot - how would such a sensor stay in place?

I think it will be doable someday, but there are several practical obstacles that would have to be overcome before this kind of technology would be usable on a large scale let alone required. Keeping the sensors on the skates and unaffected by the pounding (and the cold and sometimes wet) is certainly one of them.

Perhaps if skaters simply aren't allowed to move up unless they can demonstrate correct edges on jumps as they progress - that might be an idea. Coaches who don't teach proper technique at the beginner levels - they should perhaps be re-trained themselves. Be certified in teaching proper edge technique before they can coach young skaters.

This is a completely different issue, which might merit a separate thread.

Who would prevent skaters from moving up and how?

Remember that every federation has its own system for deciding which skaters compete at which levels.

Some federations require skaters to pass tests to move up to higher competition levels within their domestic competitions. Others do not.

In the US, the tests represent the minimum skills expected at a given level, so that recreational skaters can pass the tests by focusing on those specific skills. Competitive skaters are allowed to include significantly more difficult skills in competition than what is expected on the tests at each level.

Regarding correct edges on jumps, single flip is required on the US preliminary freestyle test and single lutz on the prejuvenile test.
Competitors are allowed to include jumps up to double lutz in prejuvenile competition.

Double flip is not required until the US junior test and double lutz on the senior test. The serious competitors at those levels are doing triples in combination.

So at what point would you not allow a skater to move up if they're doing imperfect double flips/lutzes (or other doubles including axel with imperfect rotation/landings)?

What about skaters who are doing imperfect triples?

And of course even skaters who can do the jumps perfectly sometimes will make mistakes other times. That's part of what competition is about too.

 

[ice coverage]

I believe Craig Bunton (Megan Duhamel's previous pairs partner, no retired) is developing something like that.

CBC did an interview with him (maybe when Skate Canada was in Kelowna, as he is from Kelowna).

It may be hard to sell it as a judging tool, but should be useful in training.

The data for Craig Buntin's VeriSkate analytics did not come from sensors attached to skates, AFAIK.
His video-based technology provided analytics for some of the actual programs performed in competition at Skate Canada International in Kelowna. And he had previous data/analytics for the likes of Chan, Reynolds, etc.

But at least one group of researchers has used sensors attached to skates. We have had threads in the past about their "smart" skates or "smart" blades ... sorry, I forget exactly what they call their technology.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Who knows what they will come up with in future - but with all the pounding that boots as well as the blades themselves take I don't know if this could work. The men in particular with huge jumps, like quads, and the force that comes down on the boot - how would such a sensor stay in place?

well to be blunt... the blades stay attached to the boots, attachment and stay put can be achieved it seems. (Which now that you mention it, it is impressive we don't hear about issues more often)

Also sensors like this don't have to be that big really, small enough you might be able to have a small pocket on the boot to keep it in.

For example, here is a tilt sensor for the Rasberry Pi/Arduino.

http://therobotsource.com/buy-sensors-modules-for-building-robots-robotics-mechatronics/483-bundle-of-two-tilt-sensor-module-for-arduino-stm32-avr-raspberry-pi-robotics.html

To quote them it lets you "detect if your robot falls over is traveling up or down an incline!" just replace robot with skate and you can see where i am going. The largest part is 16 x 14mm or .63 inches by .55 inches - so tiny. You could tape/Velcro/glue/whatever it into place on the bottom on the boot, and run the cords up to something small on the ankle.

To give you an idea of how tiny the ankle bracelet could be... well something as small as this could work http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/nov/26/raspberry-pi-zero-computer-cheap-free-magazine-magpi

Actually... a hobbyist could likely design something to do this pretty easily and for not that much money... but hobbyist level is not always practical for real events. Still, it would be fun.

 

[OS]

ISU will never go for it, for it removes all their power to distort the results to suit the power that be, in particular power of the federations.

 

[Manitou]

Another proposal is to put paper bags on skaters' heads to make the performances anonymous and eliminate bias towards certain skaters.....

 

[Sydney Rose]

Another proposal is to put paper bags on skaters' heads to make the performances anonymous and eliminate bias towards certain skaters.....

That won't work. Take Adam Rippon, for example. You can cover up his head but what about his very memorable backside? :luv17:

 

[StitchMonkey]

Another proposal is to put paper bags on skaters' heads to make the performances anonymous and eliminate bias towards certain skaters.....

... so best engine wins instead?

 

[OS]

Another proposal is to put paper bags on skaters' heads to make the performances anonymous and eliminate bias towards certain skaters.....

I am in favour to put paper bags over judges' head and ask them to 'view' all the performance without faces, nationalities on their VR headset, complete with ear phones to minimse crowd reception.

 

[loopy]

It is an interesting idea. I bet it can be made even smaller and taped on with skate tape.

Dartfish here is a sample of how it works: http://www.skatingcoachquiz.com/

Our coaches use Coache's Eye, it's cheaper and cell phone app, super easy to share the video if you have more than one coach and with the skater.

 

[karne]

... so best engine wins instead?

In which case sorry Adam, your engine is quite nice (especially in those fetching grey leggings on Tuesday practice) but I'm pretty sure Max has this one in the bag.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

I think it will be doable someday, but there are several practical obstacles that would have to be overcome before this kind of technology would be usable on a large scale let alone required. Keeping the sensors on the skates and unaffected by the pounding (and the cold and sometimes wet) is certainly one of them.

This is a completely different issue, which might merit a separate thread.

Who would prevent skaters from moving up and how?

Remember that every federation has its own system for deciding which skaters compete at which levels.

Some federations require skaters to pass tests to move up to higher competition levels within their domestic competitions. Others do not.

In the US, the tests represent the minimum skills expected at a given level, so that recreational skaters can pass the tests by focusing on those specific skills. Competitive skaters are allowed to include significantly more difficult skills in competition than what is expected on the tests at each level.

Regarding correct edges on jumps, single flip is required on the US preliminary freestyle test and single lutz on the prejuvenile test.
Competitors are allowed to include jumps up to double lutz in prejuvenile competition.

Double flip is not required until the US junior test and double lutz on the senior test. The serious competitors at those levels are doing triples in combination.

So at what point would you not allow a skater to move up if they're doing imperfect double flips/lutzes (or other doubles including axel with imperfect rotation/landings)?

What about skaters who are doing imperfect triples?

And of course even skaters who can do the jumps perfectly sometimes will make mistakes other times. That's part of what competition is about too.

I don't know that a skater should be prevented from moving up EVER if they can't demonstrate mastery of the proper edge on a lutz or flip as they progress from single to doubles to triples - but I am positive that there are coaches that don't even take the bother of correcting a severely wrong edge - at least pre-COP they didn't. I am no expert, this was just a suggestion. But there just seems something wrong when an elite skater shows wrong edges on their jumps, and then when their getting consistently nailed for it, they try to correct the problem in their late teens or twenties. I feel if they had been taught the correct take off early on as they progressed from singles on through triples it would have been much easier than trying to tackle the problem as adult skaters. Jmo.

 

[Lillian]

This can be manipulated like everything else and you can't trust technology. Simple as that. Nothing will ever be 100%
Why not just enjoying performances?

 

[noskates]

No. Just No.

 

[Serious Business]

You may not necessarily need to put chips on skating equipment at all. Properly placed and calibrated cameras + software analysis could do the job just as well, like the Hawk-Eye technology used in tennis, cricket and other sports.

It may actually be even simpler for figure skating, at least when it comes to detecting under-rotation: the software just needs to keep track of the tracing left by the skate blade during the course of a jump, and model it accordingly to determine whether a jump was rotated. All you'd need are enough cameras aimed at the surface of the ice connected to the proper software.

The real problem isn't technical feasibility, though. It's financial. It'd cost $$$ to create and implement such a system. And figure skating, these days, is in a bit of a financial crunch. Even though I don't think the whole thing would cost that much (you don't need special cameras or computer equipment), it's still an expense that hosts of a sport dwindling in popularity around the world can ill afford.