I agree and chuckm provided the SS scores for the ladies FS at Worlds 2016. There were only about 6 points between 2nd and 6th place in the end. It was very close and I'm sure that the judges wanted Ashley to be above Gracie, I think they wanted her in 3rd position. So they were rather generous with Ashley's PCS. I don't have a particular problem with that. But I also think it's fair to say that some of those scores just aren't representing what the skater really delivered, like Ashley's SS score. But the end result was ok imo.
Thoughts on Satoko Miyahara's skating
- Thread starter Mrs. P
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For me it's how they're gaining speed (regardless of how fast they're going) and how effortlessly they're skating the steps and turns - the effortless manipulation of the blade - the knee bend, etc. Hanyu and Chan are the current representation of this by far and no one even comes close (for me, at least). So Mao is really heads and shoulders above every current lady, IMO. Speed has always been an issue but if you look at the effortless generation of speed, it's definitive.
Choreographically, it doesn't make sense to me to be skating fast regardless of the tempo of the music. It shouldn't vary with the tempo of the music, the mood, changes in color and light (i.e. chord progression, tonality, syncopation and counterpoint).
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I don't have a problem with her getting a medal. She gave everything on home ice. I have a lot of problem with people holding up SS scores at W16 like it's the gospel truth. No no no.
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- Feb 17, 2010
I just love it how everyone knows more than the judges.
It's not that. It's just that how things are scored is questionable. Someone's SS score should not vary much between programs in a single event. Sure, IN, CH and even TR can be impacted by the quality of the performance and if certain moves are left out.
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- Feb 25, 2014
Satoko appears to be getting speed just by doing a couple of strokes. She has intricate multidirectional footwork that looks effortless and easy. Sure, Mao leads the field without question. But I think Satoko comes second, IMO.
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- Mar 23, 2014
I didn't read through this whole thread so sorry for the probably inadvertent repetition.
The tiny jumps. I can't. Tiny, under/barely rotated jumps do not deserve the same amount of points as jumps with huge height and distance. The less height and distance you get on your jumps, the easier they are to land, IMO.
In addition, while Satoko has excellent choreography and skating skills, for me her interpretation leaves much to be desired. In that regard, Satoko is one note. Rather than feeling genuine or inspired, her programs feel very excellently and unfortunately rehearsed. I've never felt a sense of spontaneity from her--of course all skater rehearse and rehearse, but the GREATS achieve so much emotion or passion or freedom in their skating that they lose their sense of falsity. Satoko hasn't, IMO. Granted, maybe not many skaters do, but the perfection of her movements perhaps adds to the perception of falsity, whereas a skater with more choreographic imperfections seems more genuine, like Rika Hongo (IMO.) I think if her jumps were bigger, wilder, some of this critique would be irrelevant.
The tiny jumps. I can't. Tiny, under/barely rotated jumps do not deserve the same amount of points as jumps with huge height and distance. The less height and distance you get on your jumps, the easier they are to land, IMO.
In addition, while Satoko has excellent choreography and skating skills, for me her interpretation leaves much to be desired. In that regard, Satoko is one note. Rather than feeling genuine or inspired, her programs feel very excellently and unfortunately rehearsed. I've never felt a sense of spontaneity from her--of course all skater rehearse and rehearse, but the GREATS achieve so much emotion or passion or freedom in their skating that they lose their sense of falsity. Satoko hasn't, IMO. Granted, maybe not many skaters do, but the perfection of her movements perhaps adds to the perception of falsity, whereas a skater with more choreographic imperfections seems more genuine, like Rika Hongo (IMO.) I think if her jumps were bigger, wilder, some of this critique would be irrelevant.
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- Feb 25, 2014
In other words, a skater with more choreographic imperfections seems more genuine and genuine skating is one of the factors that makes them GREAT. Basically, choreogrphic imperfections = greatness.
First of all Rika Hongo doesn't have choreographic imperfections. When you talk about choreography you talk about Akiko Suzuki or Kenji Miyamoto's work. What Rika Hongo has - or, doesn't have - is the ability to do full justice to the choreography that has been given to her. That's due to stiffness, posture problems, lines and extensions problems. Her programs last season were smartly built to hide these imperfections but they were glaringly obvious the season before. Which means, Rika Hongo is just as "one note" as Satoko is. Not only Rika Hongo, some of the Russian ladies as well; Elena Radionova or Elizaveta Tuktamysheva. Sometimes too much "freedom" in their skating leads to sloppy, flaily skating.
And secondly, interpretation isn't all about facial expressions, IMO. She's on the introverted side but she's been slowly coming out of her shell in the past couple of seasons. To me, interpretation is also a gesture, a movement, a spiral position; basically all the things that apparently add to her falsity - what a strong word to describe someone's skating. And IMO inaccurate as far as Satoko is concerned. I think "rehearsed" was enough, because no skater is false in his or her skating.
What should she do to convey a sense of spontaneity, I wonder. The perfection of her movements defines her skating; she's like an ice dancer. Are ice dancers false because their movements are always so precise? She knows how to be spontaneous, but not in the middle of her programs. This is what I'd call spontaneity.
It's fine to think someone's skating is rehearsed, it's fine to not be able to connect to it, it's fine to dislike it. But to say that it's false and imply that it's far from becoming one of the "greats" is a bit too harsh. Way too much criticism for a skater who's been a senior for only 2 years.
First of all Rika Hongo doesn't have choreographic imperfections. When you talk about choreography you talk about Akiko Suzuki or Kenji Miyamoto's work. What Rika Hongo has - or, doesn't have - is the ability to do full justice to the choreography that has been given to her. That's due to stiffness, posture problems, lines and extensions problems. Her programs last season were smartly built to hide these imperfections but they were glaringly obvious the season before. Which means, Rika Hongo is just as "one note" as Satoko is. Not only Rika Hongo, some of the Russian ladies as well; Elena Radionova or Elizaveta Tuktamysheva. Sometimes too much "freedom" in their skating leads to sloppy, flaily skating.
And secondly, interpretation isn't all about facial expressions, IMO. She's on the introverted side but she's been slowly coming out of her shell in the past couple of seasons. To me, interpretation is also a gesture, a movement, a spiral position; basically all the things that apparently add to her falsity - what a strong word to describe someone's skating. And IMO inaccurate as far as Satoko is concerned. I think "rehearsed" was enough, because no skater is false in his or her skating.
What should she do to convey a sense of spontaneity, I wonder. The perfection of her movements defines her skating; she's like an ice dancer. Are ice dancers false because their movements are always so precise? She knows how to be spontaneous, but not in the middle of her programs. This is what I'd call spontaneity.
It's fine to think someone's skating is rehearsed, it's fine to not be able to connect to it, it's fine to dislike it. But to say that it's false and imply that it's far from becoming one of the "greats" is a bit too harsh. Way too much criticism for a skater who's been a senior for only 2 years.
And her jumps don't get the same points as jumps with huge height and distance. Her jumps usually get 0 or +1 GOE.
I agree that Satoko does not seem spontaneous or very emotional when skating, but I think it's mostly due to her natural shyness and demureness. I get a feeling that it's not natural for her to express emotions in a very open and noticable/blatant way. It's much more difficult to learn to act and perform freely in front of public for such people. Satoko is getting there, but it does still feel a bit rehearsed. I think it's normal, and deeper understanding will come to her with age - don't forget how young she is (yes, yes, I know that those Russian girls are also very young, but, honestly, I personally don't see deep emotionality and understanding of what she doing when Radionova is skating her more "serious" programs, and Medvedeva's performance is surely also at least partially rehearsed). Still, even though Satoko's acting is a bit rehearsed, it does not seem so one note to me. She can do lyrical, playful and even fierce.
Also, Myahara has wonderful musicality which counts for quite a lot too (it's the Interpretation mark). When she moves, I don't get a feeling that this part of her performance is "rehearsed" in the sense that she is just doing what her choreographer told her, lifting her arm just because the choreographer told her to etc. without really feeling it herself.
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I'd like to see Satoko project more. Perhaps that is why certain folks aren't engaged with her skating or have misconceptions about her performance style. At Worlds live, I noticed that she was quite engaging with folks right in the Lower rows of the arena, but less so as you go farther up.
It's like a good singer without a mic. That person can sing well, but if you're in the rafters you won't hear it.
But Lauravvv is right, that is something that can be quite challenging and takes time to perfect. She seems to be a self-driven person, so she'll get there.
It's like a good singer without a mic. That person can sing well, but if you're in the rafters you won't hear it.
But Lauravvv is right, that is something that can be quite challenging and takes time to perfect. She seems to be a self-driven person, so she'll get there.
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- Mar 23, 2014
Calm down. I don't think my comments were offensive or overly critical at all. The sense of her programs feeling rehearsed is exactly what I was trying to convey with the word "false," so apparently you got that part. It's exactly the same critique people give Gracie Gold, and it's valid for both ladies (though Gracie seems to skate "bigger" in a way than Satoko's more introverted style, and that tends to appeal to me more.)
For me, the BEST skaters in the world are able to execute complex, difficult choreography excellently, with precision, while still conveying a sense of spontaneity and abandonment in their movements. Of course I'm not implying that ice dancers appear rehearsed due to the precision of their movements--the best ice dancers are both precise and convey fluidity and abandonment (Papadakis and Cizeron's strength especially.) Some skaters are precise without conveying a sense of abandonment, like Satoko, IMO, whereas other skaters convey abandonment but aren't very good at being precise, like Rika Hongo or Liza Tukt 2015. And I say this as someone who is NOT a fan of Liza's choreography or lack thereof, but the abandonment and excitement she had in her skating in 2015 helped make up for her other weaknesses because it helped the audience to engage with her performances.
The best performers/performances are perfectly executed and still convey a sense of freedom, spontaneity, abandonment. Currently, I think the top men like Yuzu and Javi do it regularly, sometimes Patrick. Jason Brown is one of the best at it, like in Riverdance. Sometimes Mao does it. Evgenia did it pretty often last season. Ashley has moments in her programs where she achieves this. IMO, Satoko has all the elegance and precision in the execution of her choreography, but I do not feel a sense of abandonment in her movements when she skates.
I also think creating a sense of abandonment can be important in building that audience connection, in allowing a more introverted performer (I'm thinking Joshua Farris, for example) still create a bond with the audience to engage them in the performance.
Of course, Satoko has a ton of fans, so she's doing many things right. But her general lack of conveying abandonment in her programs is holding her back for the time being.
Re: the performance you linked, I do get a sense of abandonment during her step sequence, which is masterful. Not so much throughout the rest of the program, but it is a very good performance overall. I had forgotten how much I liked her Miss Saigon program.
Also, does the "precision versus abandonment" paradigm I've set up make sense to anyone else or just me?
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- Feb 27, 2012
For me, abandonment is not inherently a positive quality.
It is possible (and generally preferable, IMO) to convey emotion and passion without abandonment (which often feels overdone and fake, IMO).
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- Mar 23, 2014
I think I have perhaps not explained my concept of "abandonment" well enough.
I am using the word to denote an ability to create the perception of genuine emotion and freedom and spontaneity of movement, an ability to appear as though one's movements are determined by the music and by their feeling in the moment as it relates to the music. As if what the audience is seeing is coming from inside of the skater, rather than meticulously planned and rehearsed with the help of a choreographer. In short, it's the ability to make what one does appear effortless.
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- Feb 27, 2012
My two cents:
I would consider emotion/freedom/spontaneity to be inter-related qualities (generally positive qualities). For me, abandonment is not in the same "family" of qualities.
I like emotion, I like freedom, I like spontaneity (or the appearance thereof). I often do not like abandonment (or the appearance thereof).
I think we simply have different preferences. You seemed interested to know whether others feel the same as you do on the subject of abandonment. I was just raising my hand and letting you know that at least one person does not.
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- Feb 25, 2014
I'm very calm.
I wasn't pointing out the program, I was pointing out the gesture of spontaneity she did when she faced her team mates and raised her arms victoriously. The program itself was masterfully interpreted from start to end.
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- Mar 23, 2014
Again, I have explained how I am utilizing the term "abandonment" in this particular context, which appears to be exceedingly similar to how you consider emotion/freedom/spontaneity. I explained above that I am using "abandonment" to refer to skating which has the appearance of genuine emotion, freedom, and spontaneity. These are all things you enjoy.
It appears you are defining the term "abandonment" differently, which is fine, but I believe we are ultimately agreeing regarding the concept I am discussing and instead getting bogged down in the vocabulary I've selected.
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- Feb 27, 2012
I'll put it this way:
When a number of us are posting in a GS competition thread as we are watching the same live event in real time, I have had the following experience more than once. I will see comments from others such as: "I'm thrilled for Skater X. Today was the best performance ever of her/his program. Loved how s/he skated with such abandon." Meanwhile, my reaction [which I might or might not choose to share in the thread] is: "Completely disagree. Skater X's abandon is not pleasing to me at all. Severely reduces my enjoyment of the program."
In other words: when we're viewing the "abandon" of the exact same performance, some people consider it a good thing, whereas I consider it a bad thing. It is a real difference in preference.
Thus it is plausible to me that you and I have a real difference in preference. If we do not, great. If we do, so be it.
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- Sep 14, 2008
A general sense of musicality is the first step, but interpretation is about how well the movements/positions express the music and what is being conveyed across the entire program. I have a lot of problems with her last year's program in that regard. These are largely things that need to be fixed before the performance even begins, but it's still ultimately up to the skater. Their own artistry and their own ability to think about translating music to form and watching themself on video and understanding why something isn't good choreography/interpretation and how it could be improved. Young people are generally not good at this (or athletes in general when they are focused on other things), so the coach and choreographer are important in making the skater aware and giving them the best vehicle.
Going into her Triple Loop - the music gets more intense but all she does is gently raise her arm to the side. Then after the jump, the music is in a kind of afterglow, but I don't get enough depth of emotion from her. Such as that generic arm position she does at 1:39, putting her hand limply up by her face. All through this program there's just this general sense of elegance being conveyed that doesn't particularly express anything.
Flying Camel - doesn't characterize the music very well, they just decided she needs to do this flying camel as a technical element and put it right here. Other types of spins would be a lot better for this music. Pretty much the entire remainder of the program after this point is just pasted-on movements. A random hop leading into a 3Sal. A random cross-roll. A random 2Axel+3Toe; this one really annoys me because it's such a specific jump element that has purpose set to this music. A solo Double Axel followed by soft movements would make so much more sense. The choreography sequence afterward could make good use of a loooong spiral, but what she has is choppier instead. Then there's that final Layback spin, which also has little to do with the music. It's just the same Layback she always does.
I kind of understand you, but for me abandonment is nothing without a good skating, including fine movements. Sorry but I NEVER, NEVER would prefer the abandon of Rika, Liza or Elena R. above Satoko´s refinement. I know, we can´t have everything, Michelle was the best doing perfect skating while reflect authentic emotion.
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- Jun 2, 2014
I wonder if there will ever be another Michelle.I just watched her "East of Eden" today and realized(again) how amazing she was!
Oh those spirals!
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