State of U.S. Ladies' skating 2016-17

[ice coverage]

What changes in code of conduct? Is it now "okay" for coaches to poach skaters?

In my post above, I was going by what Tavi said.

And now I have checked the Ethics section of the PSA website. Excerpt (emphasis added):

Ethical Solicitation, Marketing, and Promotion

The Federal Trade Commission recently entered into a Consent Agreement with the PSA to better help promote a competitive business market; the goal is to increase competition between coaches, reduce fees for skaters, improve the quality of services, and to encourage innovation.
To achieve these objectives, all coaches are encouraged to market and promote themselves directly to potential clients. Pursuant to our agreement with the Federal Trade Commission, restrictions that had previously prohibited a coach from soliciting the student of another coach are no longer in effect. Coaches can promote their background and credentials as they see fit, subject, of course, to the requirement that such marketing and promotion may not be misleading ...

http://www.skatepsa.com/psa/Ethical Solicitation, Marketing, and Promotion.html​

 

[Tavi...]

Ironic that in Mariah's thread, you cited a no-longer-in-effect PSA code of conduct ... and then proceeded to raise your eyebrows (I hope that is a fair characterization) at Raf's supposed approach (neither proven nor unproven) to Mariah.

​

Again, I did not and do not claim to have proof of anything.
You raised your eyebrows over one aspect of this situation (something unproven to which a rule no longer applies) -- and I am raising my eyebrows over another (something unproven to which a code of conduct might or might not apply).

I will add that I am concerned about a possible (unproven) moral obligation to a skater/fellow human being as well as a possible (unproven) code of conduct at a rink.
Golden rule: do unto others ...

Right, well, you've made your points clear, and we obviously disagree. It's pretty off-topic for this thread so I suggest we leave it.

 

[FlattFan]

What changes in code of conduct? Is it now "okay" for coaches to poach skaters?

I'm surprised it wasn't okay before. What kind of backward thinking is this? In the real world, companies poach talents all over the place all the time. If a coach thinks s/he can do a better job with Gracie, s/he should approach Gracie and sells the service. Gracie can decide if the current situation is ok or not.
I'm using Gracie as an example.

The sport was stuck in the past too long. Time to move forward.

 

[brightphoton]

In my post above, I was going by what Tavi said.

And now I have checked the Ethics section of the PSA website. Excerpt (emphasis added):

Ethical Solicitation, Marketing, and Promotion

The Federal Trade Commission recently entered into a Consent Agreement with the PSA to better help promote a competitive business market; the goal is to increase competition between coaches, reduce fees for skaters, improve the quality of services, and to encourage innovation.
To achieve these objectives, all coaches are encouraged to market and promote themselves directly to potential clients. Pursuant to our agreement with the Federal Trade Commission, restrictions that had previously prohibited a coach from soliciting the student of another coach are no longer in effect. Coaches can promote their background and credentials as they see fit, subject, of course, to the requirement that such marketing and promotion may not be misleading ...

http://www.skatepsa.com/psa/Ethical Solicitation, Marketing, and Promotion.html​

That's certainly interesting. I wonder what prompted this change. It's probably a good thing. Poaching occurs everywhere else, it's generally good for raised salaries.

Lucky for Raf to get such a good new student!

 

[brightphoton]

I'm surprised it wasn't okay before. What kind of backward thinking is this? In the real world, companies poach talents all over the place all the time. If a coach thinks s/he can do a better job with Gracie, s/he should approach Gracie and sells the service. Gracie can decide if the current situation is ok or not.
I'm using Gracie as an example.

The sport was stuck in the past too long. Time to move forward.

Indeed. Robin Wagner once tried to poach Novice champion Angela Maxwell, and was blacklisted for, what, a whole year? It was pretty ridiculous.

 

[skylark]

I have to agree with EdgeCall here. A good skater should be connecting choreographically, with skating skills, and emotionally. Having just a few of these doesn't qualify as a different way of skating...it's a less complete performance. Re: Ashley not relying on skating skills, I would argue that Ashley's skating skills are stronger than Gracie's. Her transitions are more complex, her turns cleaner and deeper, and she gets deeper into the ice than Gracie usually does. I think Gracie's choreographers haven't done her any favours by giving her transitions that rely on arm-flailing rather than actual skating.

Ashley's skating skills are underrated in some circles. Many people are dismissive of her because they're so busy counting URs that are practically invisible and watching the edge on her lutz. Her jumps are beautiful, light and airy. Her posture is gorgeous. Possibly those qualities used to count for more. And we know that URs and edge uncertainties used to be penalized much less severely than they are now. But the judges value Ashley's skating much more than many GS members do, so that's encouraging.

Ashley on the other hand relies less on raw skating skills and more on acting out each emotion, she really gets into the performance with her facial expressions.

In my opinion, it isn't accurate to suggest that Ashley relies on facial expressions rather than skating skills. She works hard on her technique and is still improving. For another thing, her performance skills are awesome across the board. These include interpreting many different musical styles with panache, nuance and genuine feeling, from the inside out. She's equally capable of skating with lightness, joy, and a sense of fun (Hip Hip Chin Chin), or with high drama (Moulin Rouge), which is certainly not just about facial expressions; it's about every note of the music and every small movement of her fingers, arms, torso and face. She reaches out with her movements and emotions to include audience members into her programs... to bring us all onto the ice with her. She casts a spell to tell a story. Check out this arm/full body expression at "the show must go on." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPJbXWylVNM at 3:50

Some don't "get" or fully appreciate what Ashley does on the ice. And that's fine, because any art form relies on the interpretation of each observer, which varies according to each viewer/reader/listener. But some of the pros are able to identify each skater's strengths. Here's a quote from b.esp. commentator about Ashley's worlds fs:

"What she didn't bring in technicality and skating skills, she brought in commitment and presence and energy. That's where the language of skating as a sport and skating as an art form is blurred, because she will have moved more people in the audience tonight than anybody else."

 

[Tavi...]

That's certainly interesting. I wonder what prompted this change. It's probably a good thing. Poaching occurs everywhere else, it's generally good for raised salaries.

Lucky for Raf to get such a good new student!

Based on the statement that it was pursuant to an agreement with the FTC, I would guess it was considered an unlawful restraint on trade. But the PSA rule was in place for years, so it was quite a big deal when they made the change.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In my opinion, it isn't accurate to suggest that Ashley relies on facial expressions rather than skating skills. She works hard on her technique and is still improving. For another thing, her performance skills are awesome across the board. These include interpreting many different musical styles with panache, nuance and genuine feeling, from the inside out. She's equally capable of skating with lightness, joy, and a sense of fun (Hip Hip Chin Chin), or with high drama (Moulin Rouge), which is certainly not just about facial expressions; it's about every note of the music and every small movement of her fingers, arms, torso and face. She reaches out with her movements and emotions to include audience members into her programs... to bring us all onto the ice with her. She casts a spell to tell a story. Check out this arm/full body expression at "the show must go on." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPJbXWylVNM at 3:50

Some don't "get" or fully appreciate what Ashley does on the ice. And that's fine, because any art form relies on the interpretation of each observer, which varies according to each viewer/reader/listener.

You haven't cited anything to suggest her skating skills contribute to her performance. Everything you said basically reinforces that she is a good performer.

 

[desertskates]

Mariah's switch to Rafael has been confirmed. So we'll get to see if a strong technical coach will help. Word in her Fan Fest thread is that Raf approached her at Glacier Falls and that she did not follow Romain out there, but rather the opposite.

I'm just crossing my fingers that Raf and Company don't do anything to try to change Mariah's new long program dress for East of Eden. It is truly the finest piece of skating fashion I have even seen

 

[jenaj]

Based on the statement that it was pursuant to an agreement with the FTC, I would guess it was considered an unlawful restraint on trade. But the PSA rule was in place for years, so it was quite a big deal when they made the change.

I agree that was the reason. But wow--I am surprised the FTC got involved in policing figure skating! I wonder who made the complaint. The PSA should have policed themselves on this and ended the restriction. I wonder if they got any legal advice.

 

[FlattFan]

Ashley's skating skills are underrated in some circles. Many people are dismissive of her because they're so busy counting URs that are practically invisible and watching the edge on her lutz. Her jumps are beautiful, light and airy. Her posture is gorgeous. Possibly those qualities used to count for more. And we know that URs and edge uncertainties used to be penalized much less severely than they are now. But the judges value Ashley's skating much more than many GS members do, so that's encouraging.

Her SS is definitely not underrated. More like overrated.
I wouldn't call her jumps light and airy either. It looks like work most of the time. The judges went from mid 6 to 9 on her skating skills in just a few years. People don't improve skating skills like that. You don't become Patrick Chan in 2-3 years if you don't got it before. It's a curious judging phenomenon for #1 US lady.

 

[jenaj]

Her SS is definitely not underrated. More like overrated.
I wouldn't call her jumps light and airy either. It looks like work most of the time. The judges went from mid 6 to 9 on her skating skills in just a few years. People don't improve skating skills like that. You don't become Patrick Chan in 2-3 years if you don't got it before. It's a curious judging phenomenon for #1 US lady.

I think the PCS inflation over the years shows the futiility of a system that purports to assign an absolute value to certain skills. It was much more realistic to give comparative marks, like what was done in the old system. And I think that is what judges are still doing, despite what the system says they are supposed to do. The fractional points allow judges to give a skater like Ashley high marks because another skater can still be placed higher--9.5 vs. 9.25, for example. I think the fiction of giving finely-graded marks to skaters on five different components in a matter of minutes should be reconsidered. How about just giving one mark for components? It can still be factored. And admitting the score involves ranking.

 

[skylark]

You haven't cited anything to suggest her skating skills contribute to her performance. Everything you said basically reinforces that she is a good performer.

Sorry. I guess I was relying on people to understand that I agreed with Tango T's statement:

I would argue that Ashley's skating skills are stronger than Gracie's. Her transitions are more complex, her turns cleaner and deeper, and she gets deeper into the ice than Gracie usually does.

I'll go back and set that in bold.

 

[skylark]

I wouldn't call her jumps light and airy either.

Perceptions differ.

 

[Tavi...]

I agree that was the reason. But wow--I am surprised the FTC got involved in policing figure skating! I wonder who made the complaint. The PSA should have policed themselves on this and ended the restriction. I wonder if they got any legal advice.

Here's a link to the FTC website. It contains copies of the complaint, decision, and more information than you probably want to know. The PSA was represented by legal counsel in the matter. I didn't look at the whole case file, but I would expect that either a coach or a parent complained to the FTC.

ETA duh here's the link

https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cas...8/professional-skaters-association-inc-matter

 

[aromaticchicken]

Her SS is definitely not underrated. More like overrated.
I wouldn't call her jumps light and airy either. It looks like work most of the time. The judges went from mid 6 to 9 on her skating skills in just a few years. People don't improve skating skills like that. You don't become Patrick Chan in 2-3 years if you don't got it before. It's a curious judging phenomenon for #1 US lady.

If you don't watch her 2012 programs and compare them to now and see any significant difference, that in my opinion says more about your ability to discern between skaters than it does about ashleys progress....

 

[andromache]

Ashley doesn't have bad skating skills, but they aren't the top of the field, either. They've been a weak point for her, which she has improved over the years. But blade-to-ice, she's weaker than Gracie, Satoko, Evgenia, Yulia....maybe Elena and Anna too (but they have other aspects of sloppiness that make it more difficult to admire the SS). IIRC, she's one of the least consistent in getting her StSq to a level 4 (spins too).

But girl can sell a performance like no other. Some skating fans like to pretend Ashley isn't an amazing performer, and they're either blind or in denial. There's nothing wrong with facial expressions. (Of course, usually it's the same people complaining about Gracie's lack of face.) Too dramatic facial expressions? Remember she's not only skating for the tv cameras where all of us sitting at home get close ups of her face, but to the people in the arena's cheap seats. There's a reason audiences around the world lose their minds when she skates clean, and it's all about the performance.

Her skating skills aren't at the level of her interpretation, and that's okay! All skaters have strengths and weaknesses, even in PCS.

The way judges score PCS stupidly doesn't just impact Ashley though. It's all top skaters.

 

[TangoTraumatica]

Ashley doesn't have bad skating skills, but they aren't the top of the field, either. They've been a weak point for her, which she has improved over the years. But blade-to-ice, she's weaker than Gracie, Satoko, Evgenia, Yulia....maybe Elena and Anna too (but they have other aspects of sloppiness that make it more difficult to admire the SS). IIRC, she's one of the least consistent in getting her StSq to a level 4 (spins too).

I totally agree that Ashley's SSs used to be a weak point that she has improved upon, and that they're not necessarily top of the field. When it comes to who she is or isn't weaker than, I have to respectfully disagree. Her turns are stronger and she gets deeper into the ice than some of skaters you've mentioned. Gracie and Elena may be technically stronger jumpers, but their raw skating and edge depth certainly aren't to level of Ashley's. Whether a skater can consistently get lv4 on their step sequences depends a LOT on the choreography.

If a whole level depends on a single turn that doesn't go great or the judges don't like, then a whole level is lost. I find that the Russian choreographic style jam-packs the step sequence to make it easier to hit a higher level (more chances to get the required turn sequences and what not), which competitively is the better strategy, but which I personally find pretty unpleasant to watch.

Perhaps we look for different things in skating skills? I completely respect looking for StSq levels as a benchmark for skating skills, but I personally look at knee depth, turn technique, and the quality of the skating that happens during transitions.

As for Gracie's performance, I agree with posters above that she is capable of performing well, just doesn't always do it, and rarely as well as Ashley. Some of her firebird performances were great. But she so often appears nervous and skates stiffly, affecting her interpretation, performance and her skating skills.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

I keep hoping the US ladies will step it up and we'll get someone else to talk about besides gracie and ashley. I'm tired of the "rivalry" and want a new US champion.....
Tyler has the technical goods; I'm hoping the best for her at TEB. Please please a clean program!
Karen is certainly talented, she could do it, but I was disappointed with her warhorse music last season.
Mariah is a gorgeous skater, but super inconsistent. I also think she is one of the few with correct edge on both lutz and flip. I worry for her, especially with no GP this year.
Courtney seems to have picked excellent music for her style this season. Will the coaching change also help her gain consistency?
Paige rydberg is another gorgeous skater with great spins, and her jumps are beautiful when she lands them..... But she is also inconsistent.

 

[aromaticchicken]

I keep hoping the US ladies will step it up and we'll get someone else to talk about besides gracie and ashley. I'm tired of the "rivalry" and want a new US champion.....
Tyler has the technical goods; I'm hoping the best for her at TEB. Please please a clean program!
Karen is certainly talented, she could do it, but I was disappointed with her warhorse music last season.
Mariah is a gorgeous skater, but super inconsistent. I also think she is one of the few with correct edge on both lutz and flip. I worry for her, especially with no GP this year.
Courtney seems to have picked excellent music for her style this season. Will the coaching change also help her gain consistency?
Paige rydberg is another gorgeous skater with great spins, and her jumps are beautiful when she lands them..... But she is also inconsistent.

Mariah has regularly been given e or ! calls on her lutz. It's getting better though. And to be fair, there's very few ladies around the world who have both edges clean. Carolina Kostner, maybe?