State of U.S. Ladies' skating 2016-17

[stella luna]

I'm just crossing my fingers that Raf and Company don't do anything to try to change Mariah's new long program dress for East of Eden. It is truly the finest piece of skating fashion I have even seen

I love that music. Didn't she use it for her 2011 SP? Any video of the LP out there yet?

 

[kwanatic]

Ashley is definitely not at the top of the field in SS but she has made major strides in SS and TR over the last season. I agree that people down play what she has accomplished and I'm not quite sure why. She deserves a lot more respect than she gets IMO.

What I like about Ashley is that she's aware of her shortcomings and she works on them. Unlike some skaters who can rely on natural talent, Ashley has to work harder to rise to their level...but she does it. She continues to improve herself year after year and I think she deserves a lot of credit for that. She's a great example of working your way up and earning respect from the judges. I think she gets a ton of scrutiny from fans and commentators alike but she always seems to bounce back and prove people wrong. I admire the hell out of her for that.

At this point she's the best US skater in this post "Golden Era" wave of ladies. Looking at all of the national champs since the 2007-2008 season, when you stack them all up nobody else's record is as strong:

GP Titles: Ashley (4), Alissa (3), Gracie (2, though 1 was by default - TEB last year), Rachael (0), Mirai (0)
GPF: Ashley (3 - 1 silver, 2 bronze), Alissa (1st - 2010) Gracie (5th in 1 appearance), Rachael (6th in 1 appearance), Mirai (-)
National Titles: Ashley (3), Alissa (2), Gracie (2), Rachael (1), Mirai (1)
Best Finish at Worlds: Ashley (2nd), Alissa (5th), Gracie (4th), Rachael (5th), Mirai (7th)
Olys: Ashley (7th, plus team bronze), Alissa (-), Gracie (4th, plus team bronze), Rachael (7th), Mirai (4th)

 

[jenaj]

I keep hoping the US ladies will step it up and we'll get someone else to talk about besides gracie and ashley. I'm tired of the "rivalry" and want a new US champion.....
Tyler has the technical goods; I'm hoping the best for her at TEB. Please please a clean program!
Karen is certainly talented, she could do it, but I was disappointed with her warhorse music last season.
Mariah is a gorgeous skater, but super inconsistent. I also think she is one of the few with correct edge on both lutz and flip. I worry for her, especially with no GP this year.
Courtney seems to have picked excellent music for her style this season. Will the coaching change also help her gain consistency?
Paige rydberg is another gorgeous skater with great spins, and her jumps are beautiful when she lands them..... But she is also inconsistent.

The two most likely to challenge are Polina and Mirai. But only if Gracie and Ashley make mistakes. Seriously, Gracie could be nearly unbeatable if she could skate two clean programs. Or even two programs with only minor mistakes. But things like missing her combo and popping triples leaves the door wide open. In fact, it removes the door from the hinges! I think Mirai would be able to compete quite well with Ashley if Ashley hadn't built up so much credibility with the judges over the past several years-- and Mirai hadn't lost so much.

 

[kwanatic]

Mirai can get some of it back. She was doing a much better job of hitting her harder jumps at the end of last season. If she can continue that trend this year she can gain some of that credibility back. We all know all it takes is a couple of strong back-to-back performances to get your scores to go up. If Mirai attacks, skates well and performs a little better (she really needs to bring that spark all the way back) then she could easily find herself back in the mix this season.

 

[Moxiejan]

Mariah has regularly been given e or ! calls on her lutz. It's getting better though. And to be fair, there's very few ladies around the world who have both edges clean. Carolina Kostner, maybe?

Also Courtney Hicks. I've never seen edge calls on her jumps.

 

[desertskates]

I love that music. Didn't she use it for her 2011 SP? Any video of the LP out there yet?

Fancam video from the Glacier Falls competition a few weeks ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B8vteUJSNc

 

[Skater Boy]

Ashley is definitely not at the top of the field in SS but she has made major strides in SS and TR over the last season. I agree that people down play what she has accomplished and I'm not quite sure why. She deserves a lot more respect than she gets IMO.

What I like about Ashley is that she's aware of her shortcomings and she works on them. Unlike some skaters who can rely on natural talent, Ashley has to work harder to rise to their level...but she does it. She continues to improve herself year after year and I think she deserves a lot of credit for that. She's a great example of working your way up and earning respect from the judges. I think she gets a ton of scrutiny from fans and commentators alike but she always seems to bounce back and prove people wrong. I admire the hell out of her for that.

At this point she's the best US skater in this post "Golden Era" wave of ladies. Looking at all of the national champs since the 2007-2008 season, when you stack them all up nobody else's record is as strong:

GP Titles: Ashley (4), Alissa (3), Gracie (2, though 1 was by default - TEB last year), Rachael (0), Mirai (0)
GPF: Ashley (3 - 1 silver, 2 bronze), Alissa (1st - 2010) Gracie (5th in 1 appearance), Rachael (6th in 1 appearance), Mirai (-)
National Titles: Ashley (3), Alissa (2), Gracie (2), Rachael (1), Mirai (1)
Best Finish at Worlds: Ashley (2nd), Alissa (5th), Gracie (4th), Rachael (5th), Mirai (7th)
Olys: Ashley (7th, plus team bronze), Alissa (-), Gracie (4th, plus team bronze), Rachael (7th), Mirai (4th)

Life has some pretty nasty and or pleasant twists. Look at Sochi. From not making the team Ashley gets a bronze olympic medal while Mirai sits home from a distance watching. I disagree about Ashley have to work super hard. She often gets huge pcs which arguably could be lower - just saying. Right now her pcs and skating skills get very generous or high marks. She is a powerful skater and fighter unlike a more finesse skater like Alissa. Really right now the US ladies are looking great. Russia - if you can figure out who are their top three, Japan and Kostner if not by reputation are looking good but the Americans at least Gold and Wagner can win the pcs and both are powerful jumpers when on. Even when off they get held up by pcs. Polina, Courtney, Mirai, Karen heck even a resurgent Zhang and the awesome rest all could sneak on to the podium on the right day.

 

[chuckm]

Ashley finished 7th at the Olympics. Who is to say Mirai would have done any better----she went to 4CC with a lot easier competition and finished 10th.

As for saying Alissa was a "more finesse skater" I can't imagine what you mean by that. Alissa was one of the most inconsistent skaters ever---you never were sure if she was going to win a competition or bomb completely. She was also one of the slowest skaters. I can recall her turning to get ready to pick for the lutz, and it was a moment of absolute suspense: was she going to land the jump, or was she going to fall? It seemed forever before she actually took off. Alissa always looked beautiful and was exquisitely dressed, but she could be a heartbreaker when it came to results.

 

[LiamForeman]

As for saying Alissa was a "more finesse skater" I can't imagine what you mean by that. Alissa was one of the most inconsistent skaters ever---you never were sure if she was going to win a competition or bomb completely. She was also one of the slowest skaters. I can recall her turning to get ready to pick for the lutz, and it was a moment of absolute suspense: was she going to land the jump, or was she going to fall? It seemed forever before she actually took off. Alissa always looked beautiful and was exquisitely dressed, but she could be a heartbreaker when it came to results.

Thank you, because this was my exact reaction to that comment. I think when people look back they will see just how weak of a skater Alissa was. Shockingly slow and awkward. And she couldn't jump. She had a very pretty face and gorgeous spins, but her programs were basically crawling across the ice mainly doing crossovers and looking scared and tentative. Give me Ashley anyday. She at least skated like a champion skater, IMO.

 

[skylark]

Look at Sochi. From not making the team Ashley gets a bronze olympic medal

I get that you don't like it, but in fact Ashley did make the team, deservedly so.

Who knows, 2014 could be for Mirai what 2010 was for Ashley ... a disappointment that ultimately she used to fuel her efforts to turn her career around. Mirai's SP today at Lombardi looked really good. She's getting the program and the music in her bones; she has time to improve the results she gets on her jumps. And I noticed today that the Chopin music is wonderful for her. It makes her serious/stoic face look on purpose, because it goes with the music. IMO it was a really great decision for her to work with Jeff Buttle and David Wilson.

 

[Mathman]

As for saying Alissa was a "more finesse skater" I can't imagine what you mean by that..

I think it means that she was not a robust, athletic jumper. Maybe "finesse" isn't the right word, but she gave the impression of being delicate and muted (even to the choice of music), rather than in your face.

Having watched her in practices as well as in competition, I think that her nerves often betrayed her when it came to timing a jump. She did have a good Lutz, though, when she landed it. I greatly enjoyed her performances throughout her career, lows and highs notwithstanding. She is still performing in specials and shows. Graduated summa cum laude from college. (She is the second most famous skater to attend Bowling Green University. ) Won two U.S. collegiate championships. Studied French and Russian. Sweet kid.

 

[skylark]

I guess this is slightly OT, but I'm curious. I listened to Mirai's TSL interview, and she said rather matter-of-factly, so that I almost missed it, that when she came in fourth at the 2010 olympics that it was "the first time" that a U.S. lady hadn't medaled at the Olympics. I gathered that she meant "for a long time," but it did strike me that she framed her experience that way. I only recall admiring her performance, that she stepped up, skating last, in a difficult place, and did more than people expected of her ... at age 16!

Did she get flack for coming in fourth? Or maybe it was just her own perfectionism looking at that finish differently than others did.

If this is another discussion that was "done to death" before I became a GS regular, just say so and I'll withdraw, gracefully or otherwise.

 

[Mathman]

Did [Mirai] get flack for coming in fourth?

Quite the opposite. Mirai was the golden queen on figure skating fan sites.

There was no way that the ladies' podium was going to be anything different from what it was, so that was off the table. Mirai utterly charmed U.S. fans with her "Carmen's little sister" routine. The only controversy was whether Mirai should have won the U.S. Championship over Rachael Flatt. They both skated great, Mirai was the audience favorite but was dinged for a couple of phantom URs. There was some sentiment that the judges scored Rachael generously to make up for having low-balled her in 2008 and in 2009.

The only wuz-robbing at the Olympics among U.S. ladies was about whether Rachael should have finished 5th instead of 7th -- this time it was Rachael's turn to be held down by invisible URs. The feeling was that Rachael was low-balled because Joannie Rochette was yet to skate, so they had to leave room to insert her into third even if she didn't skate very well. As it turned out, they needn't have worried -- Joannie skated great and did not need any help from the judges to hold third. So the judges were free to score Mirai generously knowing she wouldn't catch Joannie in any case.

As for Mirai herself, I suppose that any time you finish fourth you have to be thinking, "what if." But the U.S. fans loved her. (Still do. )

 

[skylark]

Well, the impressions you recall are close to the ones I recall having. Except I didn't know the details about low-balling and such. thanks.

 

[andromache]

Quite the opposite. Mirai was the golden queen on figure skating fan sites.

There was no way that the ladies' podium was going to be anything different from what it was, so that was off the table. Mirai utterly charmed U.S. fans with her "Carmen's little sister" routine. The only controversy was whether Mirai should have won the U.S. Championship over Rachael Flatt. They both skated great, Mirai was the audience favorite but was dinged for a couple of phantom URs. There was some sentiment that the judges scored Rachael generously to make up for having low-balled her in 2008 and in 2009.

The only wuz-robbing at the Olympics among U.S. ladies was about whether Rachael should have finished 5th instead of 7th -- this time it was Rachael's turn to be held down by invisible URs. The feeling was that Rachael was low-balled because Joannie Rochette was yet to skate, so they had to leave room to insert her into third even if she didn't skate very well. As it turned out, they needn't have worried -- Joannie skated great and did not need any help from the judges to hold third. So the judges were free to score Mirai generously knowing she wouldn't catch Joannie in any case.

As for Mirai herself, I suppose that any time you finish fourth you have to be thinking, "what if." But the U.S. fans loved her. (Still do. )

I recall a lot of wuzrobbing over whether or not Mirai should've won bronze over Joannie? Many fans seemed/still seem to believe that Joanne only won because she's a Canadian in Vancouver and because of the death of her mother.

 

[FlattFan]

I recall a lot of wuzrobbing over whether or not Mirai should've won bronze over Joannie? Many fans seemed/still seem to believe that Joanne only won because she's a Canadian in Vancouver and because of the death of her mother.

As a non-Mirai fan in 2010, I thought she should have won the bronze over Rochette. She was flawless in both SP and LP. And she did 3 2As in her LP, like Yuna. If there's a light out performance, that was it. The British guys also thought she did it.

 

[KatGrace1925]

Ashley doesn't have bad skating skills, but they aren't the top of the field, either. They've been a weak point for her, which she has improved over the years. But blade-to-ice, she's weaker than Gracie, Satoko, Evgenia, Yulia....maybe Elena and Anna too (but they have other aspects of sloppiness that make it more difficult to admire the SS). IIRC, she's one of the least consistent in getting her StSq to a level 4 (spins too).

But girl can sell a performance like no other. Some skating fans like to pretend Ashley isn't an amazing performer, and they're either blind or in denial. There's nothing wrong with facial expressions. (Of course, usually it's the same people complaining about Gracie's lack of face.) Too dramatic facial expressions? Remember she's not only skating for the tv cameras where all of us sitting at home get close ups of her face, but to the people in the arena's cheap seats. There's a reason audiences around the world lose their minds when she skates clean, and it's all about the performance.

Her skating skills aren't at the level of her interpretation, and that's okay! All skaters have strengths and weaknesses, even in PCS.

The way judges score PCS stupidly doesn't just impact Ashley though. It's all top skaters.

There is so much about this post I agree with. Great evaluation!

 

[samson]

Well I haven't seen anyone talk about Mirai's free yet in this thread and thought I'd bring the conversation here.

She was second in the free at Lombardia and third overall but exactly two points out of first. She got full credit for her triple flip/triple toe (a first for the first half of the season) scored 115.57 in the long which was also higher than any other free skate in the first half of the season. We'll see her again in three week at the Autumn Classic and it will be very interesting to see how she is then, but I think it's telling about her prep and dynamic with Tom that she looks about as good here as she typically does at her second grand prix event.

From my perspective she's set a strong foundation for herself to grow from and a good bar for Bell, Chan, Chen, and Rydberg to try to meet at the US Classic next week. Based on summer comps I'll be particularly interested to see how Mariah looks but I'm also looking forward to Emily Chan's senior debut and to see if Karen looks to be back on track.

Anyway I think this competition bodes well for Mirai! I'm looking forward to seeing how she grows and builds on this.

 

[mrrice]

Well I haven't seen anyone talk about Mirai's free yet in this thread and thought I'd bring the conversation here.

She was second in the free at Lombardia and third overall but exactly two points out of first. She got full credit for her triple flip/triple toe (a first for the first half of the season) scored 115.57 in the long which was also higher than any other free skate in the first half of the season. We'll see her again in three week at the Autumn Classic and it will be very interesting to see how she is then, but I think it's telling about her prep and dynamic with Tom that she looks about as good here as she typically does at her second grand prix event.

From my perspective she's set a strong foundation for herself to grow from and a good bar for Bell, Chan, Chen, and Rydberg to try to meet at the US Classic next week. Based on summer comps I'll be particularly interested to see how Mariah looks but I'm also looking forward to Emily Chan's senior debut and to see if Karen looks to be back on track.

Anyway I think this competition bodes well for Mirai! I'm looking forward to seeing how she grows and builds on this.

I haven't seen Mirai's Free Program yet so, I'll have to go and look for it on YouTube. What I can say, after watching her SP is that Mirai is in the best shape of her life. She has clearly been working very hard and that alone earns my respect. She clearly wants to stay around until the next Olympics and she is stepping up her game. Bravo.

Ok, after getting a look at Mirai's LP, I must say that I absolutely love it. However, she needs to make sure that her performance level elevates with the build of the music. I love the choreography, and I love Mirai's skating but, she has to "Give" more of herself emotionally to make that song work. "The Winner Takes It All" is a risky choice and I think Mirai is the kind of skater to bring it life.

 

[chuckm]

Sadly, Mirai skated the FS with her usual blank face, which definitely does NOT go with the song The Winner Takes it All. Another skater used the same song earlier in the FS (the original ABBA version) and she did act out the emotions the singer was feeling. Mirai would get much higher PCS scores if she would just show that her connection with the music is an important part of her performance. Ashley Wagner has learned over the years just how important that is, and it did help earn her a World medal.