How do federations influence the results? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

How do federations influence the results?

There was this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Winter_Olympics_figure_skating_scandal

Probably there are tons of less blatant cases and all, but since currently judging is anonimous, we cannot follow it.
Once they start saying which judge gave what marks, this could be easily tracked.
For example, you could take each mark and see what judges gave positive evaluation to a skater (compared to the average mark), and then see if there is any pattern for different skaters (for example, judges of country A tend to give above average GOE to skaters from country B).

Anonymous judging is over.....the panel was announced for each discipline and the judges #s are public as of now.

But as I realized in the discussion on the Opinion of SC thread last night, I believe that not very many of us understand how to look at the Judges scores in the TES and run that through the SOV (statement of value) chart published by the ISU to get the number to multiply the base value or BV by to get a single judge's score for each individual element.
 
There is no current data to prove any cheating. That does not mean there won't always be.

Previous "scandals" weren't *real*... until they were. As simple fans, it's neither our job, nor in our possibilities to expose anything that might be going on behind the curtains. So asking for data/proofs/explanations from us, it's a pointless exercise. Nobody here is going to hand over infos that could expose anything.

Just ask people in Athletics what it took for that massive doping scandal to be exposed... If there is no whistleblower, then there is never a case for anything. It still doesn't mean nothing is happening, nor does it mean something is happening. Only the insiders know.
 
Anonymous judging is over.....the panel was announced for each discipline and the judges #s are public as of now.

But as I realized in the discussion on the Opinion of SC thread last night, I believe that not very many of us understand how to look at the Judges scores in the TES and run that through the SOV (statement of value) chart published by the ISU to get the number to multiply the base value or BV by to get a single judge's score for each individual element.

Well, if judge 1 from pannel is J1 from the sheet, i may run an analysis of the scores of SCanada tonight just for fun
 
First of all you are most likely not going to get definitive proof. Skaters, coaches and other judges would not be willing to risk backlash for speaking out about the judging. It is very simple really and is much easier to notice now that you can see which judge is giving the marks. Country A judge makes a deal with Country B judge and says I will mark a component score or GOE higher for your skater if you give my skater some higher component scores. Money isnt the motivation it is getting the other judges to give your skater as high GOEs and PCS as possible. If you look on the detail sheets and have a list of the judges handy you will clearly see the how the different countries support oneanaother. Also done by marking down certain competitors. Same goes for the tech panel. Please be tough on this countries skater or lenient to mine and the next time I am judging one of your skaters I will be kind to them. If you want to get the gist of it look at the Dance protocols. It is the most blatant. It's a sport in itself
 
First of all you are most likely not going to get definitive proof. Skaters, coaches and other judges would not be willing to risk backlash for speaking out about the judging. It is very simple really and is much easier to notice now that you can see which judge is giving the marks. Country A judge makes a deal with Country B judge and says I will mark a component score or GOE higher for your skater if you give my skater some higher component scores. Money isnt the motivation it is getting the other judges to give your skater as high GOEs and PCS as possible. If you look on the detail sheets and have a list of the judges handy you will clearly see the how the different countries support oneanaother. Also done by marking down certain competitors. Same goes for the tech panel. Please be tough on this countries skater or lenient to mine and the next time I am judging one of your skaters I will be kind to them. If you want to get the gist of it look at the Dance protocols. It is the most blatant. It's a sport in itself

Well, i may say something nasty, but statistics have a nice property. You can detect anything as long as you have enough observations.
So, for example, after 2 years of competitions. Or 10 years. If there is some system, it will be detected =)

I´ll just have some fun ^^
 
It is now so common to have disgruntled fan singling out a score, or several, from the protocol to be outraged about. Now that the judges are no more anonymous, particular judges are sometimes singled out for chastise or ridicule.

I think to make an allegation of a judge's politically motivated bias, it should be shown that the judge shows a bias across the board regarding a particular nation. Otherwise, it is more likely a matter of personal preferences and scoring criteria biases.

As well, computer glitches come into play in cases of out of line scores as has been known to happen in some high profile high stake cases in judged sports. In the SC Pairs LP thread, YeonNL explained as a judge that he apologized to Meagan, Eric and Bruno for a mistake that happened between his entry and the computer. We are assuming Judge Jereon Prins posted that. (I can't find any other post by YeonNL though the post count is 7)

Occasionally we have judges of different level posting to enlighten us with their perspectives which I appreciate very much. They reveal themselves as human and personable much like us. It also shows judges read forums.
 
Well, if judge 1 from pannel is J1 from the sheet, i may run an analysis of the scores of SCanada tonight just for fun
. :agree:

In case you don't have it, here's the most recent ISU Scale of Value communiques to help you along....

Singles and pairs:

http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pa...2016/04/2000-sptc-sov-and-goe-2016-17-revised

http://static.isu.org/media/1003/2000-sptc-sov-and-goe-2016-2017_revised-july-14.pdf


Ice dance:

http://static.isu.org/media/339059/2015-id-scales-of-values-2016-17.pdf


The 2016 ISU regs detail how to do the calculations....

http://static.isu.org/media/382012/...ce-and-technical-rules-sandp-and-id_final.pdf
 

Thank you ^^

Although I may not use it, as i thought of not working on any score stuff, but for example examining the GOE patterns.
 
First of all you are most likely not going to get definitive proof. Skaters, coaches and other judges would not be willing to risk backlash for speaking out about the judging. It is very simple really and is much easier to notice now that you can see which judge is giving the marks. Country A judge makes a deal with Country B judge and says I will mark a component score or GOE higher for your skater if you give my skater some higher component scores. Money isnt the motivation it is getting the other judges to give your skater as high GOEs and PCS as possible. If you look on the detail sheets and have a list of the judges handy you will clearly see the how the different countries support oneanaother. Also done by marking down certain competitors. Same goes for the tech panel. Please be tough on this countries skater or lenient to mine and the next time I am judging one of your skaters I will be kind to them. If you want to get the gist of it look at the Dance protocols. It is the most blatant. It's a sport in itself

What's the motivation for a judge to go make deal with another judge, risking her own reputation, professional credential and promotion opportunities? Deals would be much more likely to be made between federations, which then would have to pressure their judges to comply. Can federation give mutual guarantees of judges' compliances? I believe most judges are honorable and want to provide a service with integrity. I don't believe they would all be obedient in order to keep or get promoted in their volunteer jobs. A few times of such obedience will likely get them exposed and out of the job anyway.

Nonetheless, would you please show us examples of what you claim to be clear collusion? Patterns of data are always more convincing than heated debates over single data or simple proclamations.
 

I get what you are trying to do....

But note that GOE differences will impact TES differently depending on the SOV. So a high or low pattern vs others on certain elements might have greater overall effect.
 
What's the motivation for a judge to go make deal with another judge, risking her own reputation, professional credential and promotion opportunities? Deals would be much more likely to be made between federations, which then would have to pressure their judges to comply. Can federation give mutual guarantees of judges' compliances? I believe most judges are honorable and want to provide a service with integrity. I don't believe they would all be obedient in order to keep or get promoted in their volunteer jobs. A few times of such obedience will likely get them exposed and out of the job anyway.

This was the rationale given by the ISU for introducing anonymity in the first place: federations were pressuring judges to support their own skaters or those of other federations with whom the fed had made a deal, judges wanted just to judge what they saw, and they felt freer to do so when their federations couldn't tell what scores they had actually given.

With IJS, it's already harder for judges to control the results. Sure, they can inflate some marks here and lowball another skater there, but 1) they don't have enough information (e.g., levels called by the tech panel, or probably memorized values for all possible elements including those with "V" calls) to know just how much they they need to inflate or deflate to get the results they want even on their own judging card; 2) they don't want to skew their marks too much from what they think the skaters really deserve, for fear of getting flagged as out of line; and 3) they would need at least one accomplice on the same panel doing the same thing to have an appreciable effect, because just being high or low is going to get their marks thrown out regardless of whether they're slightly high or significantly so.
 
This was the rationale given by the ISU for introducing anonymity in the first place: federations were pressuring judges to support their own skaters or those of other federations with whom the fed had made a deal, judges wanted just to judge what they saw, and they felt freer to do so when their federations couldn't tell what scores they had actually given.

With IJS, it's already harder for judges to control the results. Sure, they can inflate some marks here and lowball another skater there, but 1) they don't have enough information (e.g., levels called by the tech panel, or probably memorized values for all possible elements including those with "V" calls) to know just how much they they need to inflate or deflate to get the results they want even on their own judging card; 2) they don't want to skew their marks too much from what they think the skaters really deserve, for fear of getting flagged as out of line; and 3) they would need at least one accomplice on the same panel doing the same thing to have an appreciable effect, because just being high or low is going to get their marks thrown out regardless of whether they're slightly high or significantly so.

I agree. I stopped worrying about the judging. You just can't enjoy the sport if you think the judges are cheating. I do however wonders about the tech callers though.
 
I agree. I stopped worrying about the judging. You just can't enjoy the sport if you think the judges are cheating. I do however wonders about the tech callers though.

I figure it's my job to enjoy and like whomever and whatever I wish and it's the judges' job to score the performances. With complicated composite scoring of a whole panel of 9 judges, it's hard for any judge to make a significant difference and the eventual scores are more or less a consensus.
 
I also just try to enjoy the skating, even if I think my favs are being shortchanged. And three types of threads that I just skip over, or read for entertainment value:

1. Eville Anti-MyCountry Konspiracy Theories (with no evidence or proof other than your obviously superior skater got hosed). Build a bridge and get over it.:disapp:

2. Any post that starts or ends, LOL, LMAO, LMFAO, or its variants.
If you are that easily amused, LOL, then you should be on another board, LMAO, because using these acronyms doesn't convince anybody and is just, well, wearying ....:bed:

3. Any post that starts "Judge U.R. Blind from Some Other Country (and it's always in bold) boy, what a homer, what a loser, who obviously can't count and who obviously prefers only his own skaters otherwise he would see how great My Favorite Skater is.
To coin a phrase, LOL, LMAO, and LMFAO (see what I did there:biggrin:). Do you think the judge, or anyone else, cares if you put the name and country in bold and then talk about favoritism, other than "your skater" got hosed? Puh-leese. :sarcasm:

Ok, that is all (for now):laugh: :dance2:
 
This is a tangent, but one thing I think gets forgotten for all the GP events is that countries send their A team to their own events, and as mentioned above they get three entries, so it's already statistically more likely they'll do well. Any event, for example, where the U.S. sends Ashley and Gracie and Adam and Jason and the Shibs and Hubbell/Donahue and Denney/Frazier where the other countries send smaller B teams is unsurprisingly going to have more skaters on the podium. Most of those skaters are potential 4CC or worlds medalists anyway--when you stick them all in a small event, well, of course they do well. It doesn't have to be evidence of a huge conspiracy.
 
Every person on our planet, will be influenced by his or her surroundings.

Skaters can get a boost at home or they can fault under pressure and of course a judge can also be influenced by the crowds reaction. Besides that, each judge has a different idea of what is important, the best example is edge quality and speed. If you have very deep edges, then you are usually slower. A judge that want´s speed, might now like it less, than one who likes edges.

In my opinion, are quite a few skating fans, unable to tolerate other peoples opinions - something we see a lot here at the forum. They have their idea of a perfect skater, quite often corresponding with their favorite skaters and nothing else will be acceptable for a high score.

This, however, is very human and it´s easy to start a revolt in the 21th century, when all you need to do is create an anonymous account at social media networks.

As for federations,

it can work a bit like on court. Each party picks the jury members accordingly to their goal and a common example is the black / white or rich / poor selection. Each judge, will have a reputation, just like a referee in soccer and federations can invite based on that / send their skaters accordingly to what judges are present. This, however, is not cheating, it´s just a normal procedure and once you have worked in a management position, you will understand why. Your job is to get the best for your clients or in our case, your skaters.

As example,

if I would work at the US figure skating, then I would certainly invite Ashley for my home events, as she always delivers, while I would send Gracie to European events, as she usually performs better abroad. I would also make sure, that my top ice dance teams, don´t skate at the same GP event and so on. I don´t know much about the judges, so I can not really give examples there, but I would surely invite those, that go for expression and technical difficulty, rather than spins or footwork (in Ashleys case).
Of course, will there some regulations, but these I don´t know, so I can not factor those into my hypothetical example.

That judges work for free is known I think and most of them have a pretty decent life already, plus it´s a great job to see the world and a very encouraging opportunity, If I would be a judge, you could not get my vote with any money, but I would certainly vote in the way that I was taught to vote, which can be very different based on nationality and own figure skating experience. All judges start at home in their own federation and each country has a different idea of a perfect skater and we see that also among us all the time don´t we? ;)
 
An example, ...this weekend, it was predicted by many that the ladies Gold/Silver medals were a given. If you look at the Predictions threads, fans proclaimed the "REAL" competition would be for positions 3-7, as Meds and Satoko were untouchable. Well, the reality of competitions is that anything can/will happen and no person should be discounted (ie Mariah Bell, Kaetlyn Osmond, cases in point).

Nobody should be discounted, but actually that's usually what happens unless there is specific judging favor in place for a skater. Many people do not feel Osmond deserved 2nd place at Skate Canada. If she was, say, a Chinese skater who gave those exact performances, she likely would not have been in 2nd at the event. Her LP was boring and had big mistakes. Miyahara skated very well and, despite the various imperfections of her technique/program, it was a more complete effort both technically and as a performance.
 
This might have been said already, but I don't understand why they don't just have judges from non-competing countries... With ice dance at Skate Canada, the only judges that seemed fair were those who didn't have a team from their country skating (i.e. South Korea and the Netherlands).

Is there a logical reason for why this just isn't a requirement?
 
I would certainly vote in the way that I was taught to vote, which can be very different based on nationality and own figure skating experience. All judges start at home in their own federation and each country has a different idea of a perfect skater and we see that also among us all the time don´t we? ;)

We could describe ordinal judging as voting, but that's really not what judges are doing with IJS at all. They're not deciding on winners or placements -- they're evaluating each element and each program component.

However, your main point is a good one -- judges who are trained in one country all tend to value similar qualities, and judges trained in a different country will value different qualities. They're each judging as honestly as they know how according to the standards they've been taught, but what those standards are will vary.

This might have been said already, but I don't understand why they don't just have judges from non-competing countries... With ice dance at Skate Canada, the only judges that seemed fair were those who didn't have a team from their country skating (i.e. South Korea and the Netherlands).

Is there a logical reason for why this just isn't a requirement?

It would be possible at small competitions like the Grand Prix. Not at Worlds where every country is allowed an entry (presuming they have skaters who have earned the minimum scores).

And for important events with the best skaters, you also want the best judges. Those from countries with smaller skating programs may be more impartial, but they're also likely to be less experienced.
 
I don't know how many of you have competed in a judged event (I did-competitive dessage as part of three day eventing back in my very early days) but there are always some people who feel robbed and picked on and some people who just go out and do their best and let the judges judge. Those people are always the most balanced in their approach. It can drive you crazy when it seems unfair but it's also easy to forget the times that judges were kind to you or maybe missed an error or you got to them before they got hangry (hungry-angry).

If you look for conspiracies you will find them. You will force the facts into your narrative and it will just make perfect sense to you. But it also ignores that often you can take the exact same set of facts and force them into another narrative that tells a very different story. Subjectivity is the death of certainty.

Do I think bias exists? Yes. Do I think an active conspiracy by federations to hold down some skaters from other countries is the norm? No, I really don't.
 
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