State of U.S. Ladies' skating 2016-17

[Arriba627]

Grace in 2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC8_cAgdoE8

Oh, you're killin me mrrice! What I wouldn't give to see Gracie skate with that kind of abandon now. Wow, just wow!

 

[shiroKJ]

My main point was Gracie has the abilty to be #1 everytime which is why the USFS supports her. Her problem js not ability but mental and she can figure that out. People around here insult her or they want to give up on her after this fall. I am in complete disagreement with that.

I would agree with this if Gracie has won a major medal of any color, but she has yet to do so. IMO that overt type of support should be earned by delivering results when it matters. They're not doing her any favors by the way as she's mentally weak to begin with and I think this just adds unnecessary pressure to her.

 

[topaz emerald]

gracie has had the benefit of many uncalled flip edges. just recently, she got a +1 GOE for a two footed fall at france (don't know if that judge was american or not, but anyhow it's a poor example since it wasn't at nationals lol) it's not just about calls, but about the media support as well. gracie is always the first one to be advertised for events and to gain endorsements for usfs sponsored events. they choose to hype her up. i agree that gracie has more of the technical goods to become a champion, but all of the media and fed pressure is doing more harm than good. if they would simply be content with not forcing her image onto their branding efforts, perhaps she could have a better state of mind right now. can anyone even argue that she has the jumps anymore? yes, she has the perfect name, she's a sweetheart, she's kind and gorgeous and fits the perfect "american" image. but they need to stop putting all of this pressure on her. stop treating her like the ultimate marketing opportunity and just let her breathe.

quite frankly, I don't know what's going on with her....it's bizarre, just like the british commentators said in her long program performance at cup of china,...she misses her opening triple triple and the first lutz is wobbly landing, but later in the program, she goes and does an effortless triple lutz. yes, I think usfs tried to market her to bring in more interest to american audience, which is lacking, imo, she has the name and the hair, and she doesnt look bad. Because it's a business right? They need sponsors to be able to air the competitions to the general american audience. I remember seeing campbell's soup commercials and hershey's kisses when the competitions aired on my local tv. Now, I don't see those commercials anymore, those sponsors probably pulled out? But you know what, as an average american viewer who can't skate and whose husband thinks figure skating is porn on ice and would rather watch anything other than figure skating, they are marketing the wrong girl. The one who I think is marketable is mariah bell.

with gracie, you can tell, as soon as she steps onto the ice, she is scared like Sasha. Michelle and Kristi Yamguchi never looked that way. But even Michelle and kristi succumbed to pressure at the olympics, they weren't perfect and michelle was the most marketed US ladies skater ever, imo. But michelle was really consistent, despite not winning gold at olympics, she delivered heartfelt performances, even Yuna Kim was inspired by her, and whenever she went out, you can tell she was there to give her A game, knowing she had all the endorsements, and most times, she came through. And I think it's because she really loved to perform, and I see that in Mariah as well. I don't see that in Gracie or Ashley....they both look like they are thinking through their programs too much. Just my observations.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

.....they are marketing the wrong girl. The one who I think is marketable is mariah bell.

I've been saying this since Glacier Falls 2014 Its really too bad her jumps have been so unreliable because when she is on she os the total package :yes:

 

[topaz emerald]

I've been saying this since Glacier Falls 2014 Its really too bad her jumps have been so unreliable because when she is on she os the total package :yes:

well, perhaps she shouldn't have switched to frank carroll...it seems he is the type that has high expectations. Maybe she needed someone who didn't expect so much of her....but I'm just speculating. Also, when you have endorsements (althouth I haven't seen any commercials of Gracie, tbh, but I don't watch tv, so I don't know), I would think it adds a lot more pressure.

 

[mrrice]

Gracie is the second skater that I have followed who has driven me a bit crazy. I was in College in 1992 when I first saw, and fell in love with Maria Butyrskaya. It wasn't until I had Graduated and gone on tour that fate intervened and our paths crossed again in Helsinki Finland. I still think it's fate that I was there for her first and somewhat, surprising victory and again for her ultimate triumph when she won Worlds in 1999. If Gracie still wants it, I won't stop supporting her. I just don't know if she's still hungry enough to put in the work it takes to regain her form. That's why I'd love to talk her, or at least hear a "Frank" interview with her on her plans and goals as her long "Competitive" career comes to a close

Maria 1992 LP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl9yRZOapKc

 

[brightphoton]

Why doesn't Gracie want to continue past 2018?

Is it a Nathan Chen reason, like he wants to get a medal and get out?

 

[andromache]

Why doesn't Gracie want to continue past 2018?

Is it a Nathan Chen reason, like he wants to get a medal and get out?

Two potential logical reasons:

1. Wants to do other things.

2. Doesn't see the point in continuing past what is likely to be her physical peak. I doubt that she could end up being a late-bloomer regarding technical content (as compared to Ashley Wagner) but she could end up being a late-bloomer regarding her mental strength and artistry (like Carolina Kostner) if she were to continue.

 

[Jammers]

gracie has had the benefit of many uncalled flip edges. just recently, she got a +1 GOE for a two footed fall at france (don't know if that judge was american or not, but anyhow it's a poor example since it wasn't at nationals lol) it's not just about calls, but about the media support as well. gracie is always the first one to be advertised for events and to gain endorsements for usfs sponsored events. they choose to hype her up. i agree that gracie has more of the technical goods to become a champion, but all of the media and fed pressure is doing more harm than good. if they would simply be content with not forcing her image onto their branding efforts, perhaps she could have a better state of mind right now. can anyone even argue that she has the jumps anymore? yes, she has the perfect name, she's a sweetheart, she's kind and gorgeous and fits the perfect "american" image. but they need to stop putting all of this pressure on her. stop treating her like the ultimate marketing opportunity and just let her breathe.

Sadly it's to late for that the damage over the last four years has taken it's toll. Unless she finds some strength in reserve that she hasn't shown before she's going to miss Worlds. With her not on the team with her ability to get big scores and Ashley not doing well in China that 3rd spot is in danger of being lost for the Olympics. I expect Ashley to bounce back but who else can pull their weight at Worlds to keep the 3rd spot?

 

[Jammers]

Why doesn't Gracie want to continue past 2018?

Is it a Nathan Chen reason, like he wants to get a medal and get out?

Nathan is going to wreck his body trying to medal in 2018. He might not even make the team but even if he did he should realize his time is going to be 2022 when the older skaters like Hanyu,Javier and Chan are retired plus he will be in his prime at 22. But he doesn't seem to want to wait which is going to backfire if he's not careful.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

My main point was Gracie has the abilty to be #1 everytime which is why the USFS supports her. Her problem js not ability but mental and she can figure that out. People around here insult her or they want to give up on her after this fall. I am in complete disagreement with that.

I think a lot of us, myself included, believe for a long time that the mental issues would be easier to resolve than the technical problems skaters like Ashley have. That hasn't proven to be the case. I haven't given up on Gracie, but I do think becoming a dominant force in the sport isn't going to happen for her. I would not be surprised a bit if she wins WGM or OGM because she is capable of posting astronomical scores if she's on, but it looks that a great event may happen once (if at all).

 

[Skater Boy]

Well I think in general at this point not overly stunning skating and consistency is lacking. Its possible if not likely there will be no American in the Grand Prix and a Canadian is going to make it which is shocking. Well maybe not so shocking if you saw the potential Osmond had beforeinjuries struck.

Ashley still has the confidence regardless of a less than stellar performance at COC. Gracie hopefully can take some time and pull it together. Regardless of whether Frank is the right coach for Gracie it is apparent she has the talent - wonderful jumps when on and she is naturally attractive and charming which is huge and it doesn't hurt the judges love her and are willing to give her the points.

For whatever reason American ladies have not grasped the brass ring. it appears Ashley has the confidence and fire but we need to see consistency. I am not sure I would be thrilled by this but life is life= Ashley and Gracie 1 and 2 at the next olympics. While I like them \i would rather have seen far greater consistency that some relatively fluke skate at the olympics but that's life ie Sarah Hughes.

 

[KatGrace1925]

The question is how much of a return will USFS ultimately get by this support of Gracie and whether it's being done at the expense of building the U.S. ladies program or developing depth for the future. Gracie has already indicated she isn't super motivated to go beyond 2018. So if she retires or leaves the sport in 2018 -- what then?

I honestly don't think they spend much on Gracie at all. They support her in competitions and advertise her as well but their total focus behind the scenes is probably not on her. They do help the other skaters along but they've always hyped their top ladies. The federation was ready to send Michelle to the 2006 olympics without seeing her skate. The program needs some reform but none of that is Gracie's fault. I take issue with people saying things like the USFS supports her because she is a pretty face. They support her because reality of it is she has helped the US ladies internationally and helped us gain 3 spots for worlds repeatedly as well as gained a good standing in rankings over time. Is it enough for a skater like her? No but don't downgrade what her and Ashley have done together for the US.

One could also agrue that Ashley is where she is today because having another great US lady coming up behind her has put a fire in her. She says she added her 3L-.5L-3S due to knowing she needed more to beat Gracie.

 

[KatGrace1925]

I would agree with this if Gracie has won a major medal of any color, but she has yet to do so. IMO that overt type of support should be earned by delivering results when it matters. They're not doing her any favors by the way as she's mentally weak to begin with and I think this just adds unnecessary pressure to her.

She has won a couple grand prix eventa and rightfully won nationals.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Sadly it's to late for that the damage over the last four years has taken it's toll. Unless she finds some strength in reserve that she hasn't shown before she's going to miss Worlds. With her not on the team with her ability to get big scores and Ashley not doing well in China that 3rd spot is in danger of being lost for the Olympics. I expect Ashley to bounce back but who else can pull their weight at Worlds to keep the 3rd spot?

If Amano is the technical caller at Worlds, we probably won't have 3 spots. Imagine if our team ended up being Ashley, Polina and Mirai.

 

[skylark]

I can't remeber the last time another american beat a 90% clean Gracie.

I can. 2015 Nationals. Popped her 3t in the short and fell on her 3f in the long. Everything else received positive GOE. Ashley beat her by 15 points.

And I would say that Gracie was close to / arguably 90% clean at Worlds 2016 and Ashley beat her there as well (and Ashley was certainly not perfect either).

This seems like part of the problem. Gracie has been so overhyped in the public imagination. No matter the objective truth, many people seem to remember things that aren't necessarily so.

And I do think that commentators often reinforce the impression. Tara says at nearly every Gracie outing that Gracie "should be" WC and extols her technique. This remark ignores all the other components of figure skating that are as important as perfect jumping technique, especially expression. I have to add that Johnny makes it a point to right the balance by talking about the importance of expression and artistry.

Gracie has garnered more support from media and USFSA because of her looks, her name, and probably because she was a new face in 2014, when Ashley had been the USFSA's best hope for years by that time. Media/advertisers love the new face, and the federation is savvy enough to take advantage of all that. However you argue the facts, it still remains that a great many people have the impression that Gracie has been promoted for more reasons than just her accomplishments, playing on people's emotions and hopes. That has given her certain advantages.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

And I do think that commentators often reinforce the impression. Tara says at nearly every Gracie outing that Gracie "should be" WC and extols her technique. This remark ignores all the other components of figure skating that are as important as perfect jumping technique, especially expression. I have to add that Johnny makes it a point to right the balance by talking about the importance of expression and artistry.

The issue is that when Gracie has a disappointing result, it is because she fails at the thing that is her best attribute: the jumps. Certainly she could be more expressive or have programs more suited to her style, but these are never the things that prevent her from winning an event. Gracie should be a WC on the basis of her technical skills alone (including SS), so I think it is ok for Tara to be highlighting that as the reason Gracie is underperforming.

 

[mrrice]

Well, based on what I've seen so far this season. Ashley and Mariah Bell are the skaters I trust to keep our spots. Without seeing or hearing much of anything from Polina Edmunds, I hardly know what to think about her. If healthy, she's a rock mentally and I'd trust to make the final flight. I could certainly see Ashley staying in the top 4 and she rarely skates badly when she hits the big time events. I still think there's a surprise "A Comin'" as they say in the south. From Angela Wang. She wasn't perfect at her last event but, she does look good and has great programs. How are Tyler Pierce and Brandie Tennel looking this season?

 

[skylark]

Sadly it's to late for that the damage over the last four years has taken it's toll. Unless she finds some strength in reserve that she hasn't shown before she's going to miss Worlds. With her not on the team with her ability to get big scores and Ashley not doing well in China that 3rd spot is in danger of being lost for the Olympics. I expect Ashley to bounce back but who else can pull their weight at Worlds to keep the 3rd spot?

Polina Edmunds. She finished in 8th at Worlds 2014 and 2015. Both years, her placement could be paired with either Ashley's or Gracie's to retain 3 spots. Ashley and Gracie earned our three spots that year and also in 2013 and 2016. I totally don't think it's time to panic here. Both Ashley and Gracie have shown consistent and competitive results at Worlds. And we mustn't forget that Ashley is the current World Silver Medalist.

I expect Polina to be back to form. But even if she isn't ready because of her injury, Mariah or Mirai could conceivably deliver the necessary results. They both have the ability. And don't forget that skaters over the years have gotten great results at their first Worlds. Lysacek won the bronze at his first outing to WC. Sasha came in fourth at her first outing. And so on.

 

[Skater Boy]

I don't think the American ladies are too worried about losing the third spot with whoever the issue is will Gracie develop to her full potential. We have seen that the international judges love her and when she skates clean probably no one can beat her deserved or not. I think for Mariah or Courtney to be the strong third American skater and for that matter Nagusu or Chen is we need to see some Polina. I think sadly that third spot and now maybe second with Gracie seemingly in a funk is a dog fight. Someone needs to own it and want it and then perform it. Just like the bloom and hope in Zhang is lost it is probably a matter of time for Nagasu if she doesn't start getting results and maybe even Gracie. Remember some good skaters who fizzled out - maybe not as good as Gracie but think Phaneuf, Czisny, Chouinard, Bobek- all potentially really great skaters who sort of plateaued and fizzled and faded. But all 4 had huge potential. I realize these are humans and I hate to think about how they seem so "disposable" but it is a sport. I also know all of them are trying; it isn't easy these aren't controllable robots. Still Ashley seems safe to go to worlds but right now I am not so sure who will get the two other spots though I think the hope is still with Gracie.