Holocaust: Controversial ice dance routine

[Eislauf]

No matter what they say unless some force majeure happens Zhenya is going to win everything this season with this "tasteless" program. And next season she is going to have different programs. I am sure she will play it safe during the Olympic season so that popular topics about them will likely be something like: "meh, boring, fell asleep".

As we all know, there's a vast grey area between skating to a "9/11 theme with phone calls and George Bush speaking" versus a tired old "war-horse". In fact I would argue that an artistically gifted skater can perform a war horse and still make a big impression.

 

[senatormls]

I'm in tears.. truly dispicable and also forgetful of the other colored triangles like pink.

 

[andromache]

FWIW, I am completely un-offended by any of the skating programs being discussed here; I'm un-offended by most things, really, though I'm more than happy to point out when I don't like something or if I don't think it's tasteful - that doesn't mean something offends me. I have zero investment/interest in what the US media says about Russia (trust me, we've got enough issues here that I personally prefer to focus on, rather than foreign policy), and the nationality of the choreographers/performers means little to me (other than the fact that they are from a population that was not directly impacted by the Holocaust. WWII yes, but not the Holocaust).

I think just about anyone dressing up as and portraying a Holocaust victim - by "dressing up as" I mean the uniform, the infamous uniform of imprisonment and genocide, not like Yulia's red coat - is in poor taste, unless you're an actor playing a role in a very serious and realistic film (such as the original actors in Life is Beautiful.) They could be Russian, they could be American, they could be German - I would find it in poor taste. Unless the person or their ancestors directly experienced the Holocaust, I would find it in poor taste - and I highly doubt any Holocaust survivors or descendants of people who died in or survived the Holocaust would ever do such a thing.

The famous, acclaimed play The Diary of Anne Frank never goes to a concentration camp, probably for just this reason. Without the resources of a movie, it's impossible to come close to re-producing the visuals necessary to show life and death in a concentration camp. Theater can't do it and neither can figure skaters. Relying on a costume alone feels cheap and, yes, tasteless.

ETA: For theatrical works (many of which are written by survivors), I recommend this source: https://htc.miami.edu/. Note that those plays which do take place in a concentration camp do so in order to shed light on previously un-explored or not-commonly-known aspects of its horror. They do not take place in a concentration camp for the drama or the shock value, or to "raise awareness" of the Holocaust, but for very serious and focused reasons. IMO, Averbukh's programs fails to do those things. I don't think a skating program, due to limitations of the medium, is capable of it.

 

[dorispulaski]

Was it a slavery and discrimination based on race or religion? You need to study history, really. It was an expansion case - something what many other countries did. Slavs conquested and captured Tatars, Udmurts, Yakuts, Eskimos and many others, but they did not make them their slaves or servants just because of those small ethical groups might look differently or have different religion. Slavs peacefully melted culturally and genetically with Tatars and many others and formed a big nation which we know nowdays as Russian. They all mostly remember their ethnical and cultural background, but consider themselves as mainly Russians. And only then, their other ethnicity. Like our beloved Elizaveta Tukhtqmysheva - a beautiful Russian Umdurt lady. "Friendship of people" by force - was a Russia's ethical strategy and internal politics for many centuries. As a result there were no slavery based on religion or race - everyone was Russian, not everyone is Slav - you know platinum blonde with blue eyes, but everyone is Russian. There were no second class citizens because of race or ethnicity in Russia, only the usual aristocrats-vassal-peasants type of society typical for those time all across the world back then. Btw, USA was not even on the map, when Russia and all Euors were shaping and melting their ethnicities in their sovereign nations. There were no cases like genocide of American natives tribes by colonialism of Euros. Russia's expansion certainly was by force like others, but later on they culturally assimilated and ethnically melted with all their new citizens (back in 12-19th centuries). It was a long process. They adopted a lot from other ethnical minorities. So current Russian culture is not Ruthenian, or Rus, or Slav culture. Russian culture is a melting pot. And it's very diverse, it's been like this for many centuries already. They did not put their "Russian Indians/natives" into slavery or reservations. Slavery was only a Euro colonization thing, not Russian. Slavs did not discriminate other new minorities because of religion or ethnicity, they accepted them and build one strong nation out of their diversity. USA and Russia are the only true multi-national and multi-cultural nations in the world right now. Canada is more like bi-cultural and successfully trying to be multi-cultural (but they are only at the beginning of this long and painful process).

Next time you want to bring something to my attention, bring something other than a Wikipedia article. *smiling politely*

https://kinggalleries.com/slaves-northern-fur-trade-american-tragedy/

The treatment of the Aleuts by the Russians was slavery; really, there is nothing else you could call it. The time frame was 1745 to 1864 (Russian discovery of Alaska to the sale of Alaska to the US.)

Males were forced to hunt sea otters as far away as Baja California [in Mexico]; children were held prisoner to ensure their fathers would obey; and females were sent to the men of Siberia who perpetually lacked women.

The same account is given in Koniag to King Crab by Yule M. Chaffin, 1967
https://www.amazon.com/Koniag-king-crab-settlement-industries/dp/B0006BRKVK

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I appreciate the sentiment that Tatiana was hoping for, and obviously it's meant to be a tribute/homage of sorts. However the way they've done it is incredibly shortsighted and tasteless.

I'm reminded of Domnina/Shabalin's Aboriginal OD... it seems that the intentions to present the culture/history is well-intentioned but the kitschiness of the costumes and somewhat (or downright) offensive interpretation makes it miss the mark. Like, hugely miss the mark.

 

[KMK0902]

Plain and simple: There are certain things you just don't do or say in 2016... You don't joke or make light of the Holocaust....or ISIS....or 9/11....or the Russian Revolution....Stalin's terror.....terrorism in Paris.....slavery anywhere in the world.....etc etc

I'm not American just a human...

 

[lappo]

To Alexz: while European and American have their big share in racism and slavery, I don't think Russia was entirely free of racism back then. The word "pogrom" should tell you something. And, since you're mentioning Pushkin as an example of racial integration in early XIX century Russian society, I'm certain that you know that his great-grandfather was captured and given to the emperor as a present. At the time, "different people" (black, dwarf, affected by strange illnesses such as Ambras syndrome ecc..) were considered fancy display in European courts. The fact that thanks to their talents they could gain royal or imperial favour for themselves and their descendants and rise in the society doesn't mean that we should forget how they were kidnapped and sold as children. If you read Italian you can find this interesting (I don't think it's published in english): https://www.ibs.it/selvaggio-gentiluomo-incredibile-storia-di-libro-roberto-zapperi/e/9788879899802

 

[Isabel_O'Reilly]

I think it was not something I would want to see done in any kind of setting but I think the sentiment is true. I don't think that the Russian skaters and choreographers mean to offend but what they see as artistic doesn't always play well in other major skating countries. The miming does seem what Russians are doing in skating. One difference I want to point out is that these are at least adults who are very aware of history.

As far as Eteri is concerned- I really do not know what she explained to Julia or Evgenia or what these two teens know about the sad events they skated about. But it seems the skating judges are buying it. And the judges were seriously applauding Tatiana and her partner. I really did not care for this. To be honest I did not like the movie nor the music when Gracie skated to it a few years back.

Schindler's list has been skated to very tastefully years ago by Witt and Wylie and likely others. I really was touched by those performances. This one? Hmm not so much but I think they were trying to be sincere. That is all I will say as this likely ends up in politics or closed.

Yulia was the one who brought the program up, both Eteri and Averbukh said she could nor do it but Yulia had seen the movie and knew the background. She was not just skating to it casually but had an understanding of the music and wanted to portray the little girl in the red coat from the movie. I and many other people found it very moving. Also the director who made the movie complimented her and thanked her in a letter because he and his family were brought to tears while watching it at the Olympics.


When something that is such difficult subject matter to bring up it needs to be done well and while I don't think Evgenia's program meant any harm; including the actual sound effects is a mistake especially when it's something that millions of people were affected by within the last two decades. Without the sound effects, however I think it would be much easier to judge the program on its own merit instead of people thinking it's exploitive.

 

[ancientpeas]

(Even though I got quoted by other people later I decided to shorten this to the relevant point I should have stuck to. Nothing makes someone who studied history happier than rambling on about history but this is not the place for it. And I apologize for my roll in taking the conversation even further a field)

Art is always subjective. Picasso painted a very famous painting called Guernica. It was about the Nazi germany and Italian fascist firebombing the town. Is it in good taste? I think a lot of people would think not especially now a days. But to me it's a powerful piece of art about a very painful period in time. I take the position that if it's well done and well intensioned then it's up to the watcher to gauge it's impact. They have the right to produce it and you have the right to dislike it or love it but you should not have the right to silence it. Art, and dance is art, has to judged on it's own merits.

I would not do a Holocaust program. I am not Jewish. I found Julia's program moving but I do not like the sound effects in Evgenia's (the program itself doesn't offend me).

Eventually everyone who survived the Holocaust will be dead and what will be left is the art that is left behind. The telling of their stories, whether in their own words or through movies, books, music and yes dance will be a monument to the memory of all that was lost and all that, hopefully, can be learned.

 

[[email protected]]

https://kinggalleries.com/slaves-northern-fur-trade-american-tragedy/

The treatment of the Aleuts by the Russians was slavery; really, there is nothing else you could call it. The time frame was 1745 to 1864 (Russian discovery of Alaska to the sale of Alaska to the US.)

That's a biased view of an American historian on the Russian history. I can give you multiple links where Russian historians write how white Americans exterminated native Americans in millions. So what?

That's another view on the history of Aleuts. Google transaltion will work fine - it is not a difficult text.

http://russiahistory.ru/aleuty/

 

[[email protected]]

To Alexz: while European and American have their big share in racism and slavery, I don't think Russia was entirely free of racism back then. The word "pogrom" should tell you something. And, since you're mentioning Pushkin as an example of racial integration in early XIX century Russian society, I'm certain that you know that his great-grandfather was captured and given to the emperor as a present. At the time, "different people" (black, dwarf, affected by strange illnesses such as Ambras syndrome ecc..) were considered fancy display in European courts. The fact that thanks to their talents they could gain royal or imperial favour for themselves and their descendants and rise in the society doesn't mean that we should forget how they were kidnapped and sold as children. If you read Italian you can find this interesting (I don't think it's published in english): https://www.ibs.it/selvaggio-gentiluomo-incredibile-storia-di-libro-roberto-zapperi/e/9788879899802

Russia was free of racism in a sense of American racism where people were segregated by their color. Of course, it was always inequality. Before 1861 the nobles had peasants who were semi slaves: they had to either work several days a week for the master without pay or give him a certain share of their crops. They also could not leave the master same as their children. I think this was the norm in Europe as well - it just ended earlier.

The case of Pushkin granfather shows that Russia despite all bad and sometimes wild things (tzar Peter the Great actively participated in tortures and himself chopped dozens of heads of rebels) was free of racims. Abraham Gannibal was presented to tzar Peter. But he was not enslaved - he was sent to Paris to get education and later on became a general and later on the chief military engineer of the whole Russian army. There is a good movie about him http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075225/?ref_=nm_flmg_dr_9. Imagine a black guy as a general in the Confederate army.

 

[ancientpeas]

That's a biased view of an American historian on the Russian history. I can give you multiple links where Russian historians write how white Americans exterminated native Americans in millions. So what?

That's another view on the history of Aleuts. Google transaltion will work fine - it is not a difficult text.

http://russiahistory.ru/aleuty/

I don't know about the U.S. but in Canada we have had to come to a recognition of our deplorable treatment of natives. White Europeans have historically and, it can be argued, continue to be prejudice against natives. By forcing them on to reserves and attempting to wipe out their language and religion we engaged in cultural genocide. This really isn't debatable by anyone with any kind of education. It is what happened.

 

[lappo]

Russia was free of racism in a sense of American racism where people were segregated by their color. Of course, it was always inequality. Before 1861 the nobles had peasants who were semi slaves: they had to either work several days a week for the master without pay or give him a certain share of their crops. They also could not leave the master same as their children. I think this was the norm in Europe as well - it just ended earlier.

If I remember correctly from late XIII century until the Revolution the Jews were allowed to reside just in the Pale of Settlement; the chance of residing freely in Russia (meaning inside today Russian border) was allowed very, very sparsely. I think this can be called segregation too and it was based on ethnic ground. By that, I don't absolutely want to say that Russians were more antisemitic than other European countries...I happen to walk daily in a ghetto to go to work, so I know that we had our fair share of antisemitism also here.
Thanks for the movie, btw! :agree:

 

[ancientpeas]

*not going to argue, not going to argue*

There are many, many forms of racism and cultural genocide. I don't think there are many countries that have never engaged in it. First you have to acknowledge it, then you have to fix it and learn from it. That's the way it should be. Forcing your language, religion, political ideology on to another cultural that neither wants it not asked for it is also wrong.

 

[[email protected]]

I don't know about the U.S. but in Canada we have had to come to a recognition of our deplorable treatment of natives. White Europeans have historically and, it can be argued, continue to be prejudice against natives. By forcing them on to reserves and attempting to wipe out their language and religion we engaged in cultural genocide. This really isn't debatable by anyone with any kind of education. It is what happened.

Don't get me wrong - I do not want to say that the Russians treated all the small people with deep respect and recognition. Russian history is wild with things like Mongol invasion in 1240-42 or Napoleon invasion of 1812: 80 000 people died during 1 day of Borodino battle. It was the bloodiest battle in the whole history then. Interesting that no one names Napoleon the butcher - he is still a hero.

But one cannot deny that the Russians while bringing Christanity did not impose the culture and did not exterminate the natives. For one thing, there are 190 different people living now in Russia including several dozens of small northern people like Aleuts.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I hope it's about time to move this thread to the politics section. No one is even discussing the actual skating.

 

[Biellmann]

*sigh* *deeper sigh*

20- 25 million Russians died during the WWII. That's nearly the entire populations of my country. Stalin's scorched earth policy (basically to burn everything as they retreated from the German Blitzkrieg) meant that those who didn't die in the fighting often starved to death. The siege of Leningrad resulted in the untold deaths as much from cold and hunger as actual fighting. And yet it worked. I think it's important for the west to acknowledge that Hitler lost the war in Russia and largely at the hands of Russian soldiers. It's been widely reported that German soldiers often chose to serve in the work/death camps to avoid going to the eastern front. If there was hell on earth it probably was the eastern front 1943-4. A lot of Russians feel that we in the west we gloss over their sacrifice and that for a long time the western allies were holding back and hoping that the Nazi's and Soviets would destroy each other. How many Russian lives would have been saved if a real western front had been opened in 1943?

However, and this is important to note, that was warfare. Hitler declared war and invaded and the Russians heroically dug in and survived. The USSR (at the time) had an army, an airforce and a navy. The Jewish people did not. They were targeted because of their race and not because he wanted their land or hated their political ideology. They weren't killed in battle or starved to death because of a siege but rounded up and gassed in death camps. One was a war and one was a slaughter. There is a difference but lets not undermine one to strengthen the tragedy of the other.

Way more than ice skating (which other than enjoying watching I know little about) this is my area. Almost all of my history credits come from either Medieval or 20th C. European History. That doesn't make my opinion any more valid than anyone elses but I feel that I should say this because I mostly look at these issues in a somewhat dispassionate historian kind of way. You write enough papers on issues and you start to get a remoteness to them. I have written at least 6 papers on the Nazi-Soviet Pact and it's ultimate failure and the resulting aftermath.

Art is always subjective. Picasso painted a very famous painting called Guernica. It was about the Nazi germany and Italian fascist firebombing the town. Is it in good taste? I think a lot of people would think not especially now a days. But to me it's a powerful piece of art about a very painful period in time. I take the position that if it's well done and well intensioned then it's up to the watcher to gauge it's impact. They have the right to produce it and you have the right to dislike it or love it but you should not have the right to silence it. Art, and dance is art, has to judged on it's own merits.

I would not do a Holocaust program. I am not Jewish. I found Julia's program moving but I do not like the sound effects in Evgenia's (the program itself doesn't offend me).

Eventually everyone who survived the Holocaust will be dead and what will be left is the art that is left behind. The telling of their stories, whether in their own words or through movies, books, music and yes dance will be a monument to the memory of all that was lost and all that, hopefully, can be learned.

Edited to fix the total causality count.

People talk about "races" but don't even know what races are... and that's the problem in this world. People like to use all these "strong" words like "racism", basically everytime when they don't like something, they just love these words because they give them "power" and the chance to bully people. And that's actually the reason for all the tensions and hate. You put people into groups, this gives them the feeling it's a "competition", everyone wants to be better than others, it's easy to blame a "group" when things go wrong, pointing the finger at them, and in the end, someone is going to be hurt and offended - the beginning of hate. This is the psychology of humans.
Seriously, "races" doesn't exist, there's only the human race. Homo sapiens. Nothing else. It's disturbing that so many people still believe that there are "different species" of people
But i guess for some people the Earth is still flat

If you want the world to become a better place, just stop with this shallow nonsense. Change your paradigm or nothing will ever change.


Bye

 

[ancientpeas]

Don't get me wrong - I do not want to say that the Russians treated all the small people with deep respect and recognition. Russian history is wild with things like Mongol invasion in 1240-42 or Napoleon invasion of 1812: 80 000 people died during 1 day of Borodino battle. It was the bloodiest battle in the whole history then. Interesting that no one names Napoleon the butcher - he is still a hero.

But one cannot deny that the Russians while bringing Christanity did not impose the culture and did not exterminate the natives. For one thing, there are 190 different people living now in Russia including several dozens of small northern people like Aleuts.

Um... I really don't want to argue with you but I, a complete and total WASP complete with British parents, was very good friends with a Ukrainian family who left the Ukraine in the 60s. There is a sizeable Ukrainian community in Canada (I think we were the destination of choice and many headed out west) and I was lucky enough to be put in Ukrainian dance and cooking classes as a child. That the Russians imposed their language, political ideology and culture on Ukrainians is a pretty accepted fact. Maybe with the borders of Russia proper other cultures were accepted but I think if you ask Poles, Chezchs, Latvians etc. about what happened to their cultures in the period from 1945-90 you might hear a different side of the story.

FYI, you might want to not use the term small people. I know you don't mean it to be but it's a bit..problematic.

History is written by the victors.

 

[ancientpeas]

People talk about "races" but don't even know what races are... and that's the problem in this world. People like to use all these "strong" words like "racism", basically everytime when they don't like something, they just love these words because they give them "power" and the chance to bully people. And that's actually the reason for all the tensions and hate. You put people into groups, this gives them the feeling it's a "competition", everyone wants to be better than others, it's easy to blame a "group" when things go wrong, pointing the finger at them, and in the end, someone is going to be hurt and offended - the beginning of hate. This is the psychology of humans.
Seriously, "races" doesn't exist, there's only the human race. Homo sapiens. Nothing else. It's disturbing that so many people still believe that there are "different species" of people
But i guess for some people the Earth is still flat

If you want the world to become a better place, just stop with this shallow nonsense. Change your paradigm or nothing will ever change.


Bye

That's what you got out of what I wrote? Because that is totally not what I said. Yeah okay. Shallow I am.

 

[shmay]

That's a biased view of an American historian on the Russian history. I can give you multiple links where Russian historians write how white Americans exterminated native Americans in millions. So what?

No one in this thread is denying that white Americans committed atrocities against Native Americans. Similar atrocities were committed within the Russian Empire. It's embarrassing that you, the guy upthread, and apparently your favorite historians are in complete denial about that. It's been a while since I've been back to the States, but I think you'd have to venture pretty deep into the trailer park to encounter people who categorically deny the heinous crimes that successive governments and white American civilians committed against Natives.

That's another view on the history of Aleuts. Google transaltion will work fine - it is not a difficult text.
http://russiahistory.ru/aleuty/

Yeah, that article really presents a convincing account of the essential nature of colonialism. The Russian Colonists came and the indigenous populations had a swell old time. They just smiled and embraced the idea of ceding their ancestral lands to a foreign entity, hunting their natural resources to near extinction, 'paying tribute' to their captors, abandoning their traditional religion and converting to the colonizers' faith in order to receive any recognition of humanity, and dying en masse of disease.