US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)

[Mathman]

^ I fo not see what this argument is about. Ashley, Karen and Mariah will skate at worlds; each will do the best she can.

Or do I mean Karen, Mariah and Ashley will skate?

But what about Mirai? She will try to pull up to a higher score in the free skate at Four Continents.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

^ I fo not see what this argument is about. Ashley, Karen and Mariah will skate at worlds; each will do the best she can.

It does matter, to the extent that the USFSA has to lobby for its best skater.

 

[tulosai]

I honestly don't think this particular argument was about who should or will go to Worlds (though it always might go there, it is GS). The selections have been made, it's done. The debate is about whether Karen is any kind of international contender, and if people do think she is, what they are basing that off of.

I like Karen, was super happy for her at Nats, lovely skating. But she's never pulled it together as a senior internationally and that is the truth. Of course I hope she will, ideally at Worlds, would be great. But is she the US #1 because of one frankly at this point fluke Nationals? I agree with drivingmissdaisy, she isn't. Sorry. Ashley is our #1, even if she is having a rough season. And internationally, not just this season but always, Mirai is doing better than Karen, and this season Mariah is slaying Karen. It doesn't make someone a hater or basher to say so, these are the facts. It also doesn't mean one is arguing against the Nationals results (Mirai dug her own grave there) or that one is arguing about who is on the Worlds or 4CC teams.

 

[KatGrace1925]

I concur that Ashley is the #1 in the US right now. I look forward to seeing her kill it at worlds, because I trust Raf and after nationals last year she was fantastic! I still see Ashley placing very well at worlds! I love Karen too and she could verywell be our #1 in the future, but she isn't at the moment.

 

[kwanatic]

Who knows how Ashley is doing at the moment. If she's skating like she did at the second Grand Prix, even if Mariah and Karen didn't make any mistakes, it will be down to 2 spots. For all intents and purposes, Karen is still US #1.

Ashley has been the US #1 for pretty much this entire quad. Even when she didn't hold the title she was the one getting it done. Gracie was always #1 in waiting but she never really got her footing to put herself over Ashley internationally. Ashley is not the best there is but at the very least she's reliable. She's been carrying the US women for the better part of the last 6 years. She's pretty much reliable for a top 6 finish at Worlds...no other US woman can say that right now.

Karen was strong at nationals but that was one competition. The last time she performed that well or close to it was back at nationals in 2015 when she won bronze. Karen is not a consistent competitor. I do think she has the goods to be a strong contender. She skates with a lot of speed, good edges, her jumps are big, her spins are excellent, her programs are solid and she's a good performer as well. If she were to start delivering consistently all of her scores would go up b/c her skating is actually very good. The issue is her inability to deliver consistently enough. She usually makes major errors that keep her down. Had she skated cleanly at 4CC today she'd probably be sitting in the top 2 or 3.

Karen has the potential to be #1 but having that title does not make you #1 especially if you can't back it up. It means you won a competition. Remember when Ashley won her first title back in 2012? She followed that up by going to 4CC and winning. That's how you solidify a position as #1 and prove that your results weren't a fluke or one-time thing. You win and then you back it up. After you've done that a time or two that's when ranks start taking form.

Looking at the US women as a whole, Karen is probably #4 or #5. If she'd come to this competition and delivered the goods, then she might be considered #1 going into Worlds. Right now she's barely looking like a viable #3...I love her to death but I have very little faith in her as a competitor.

 

[Suze]

Why do Worlds teams have to be announced right after nationals? Not only the US but almost all federations seem to do this when it doesn't make sense for an event nearly 2-3 months or so out.

There are international competitions like 4CC closer to worlds. I feel like the results of these competitions should be taken into consideration with serious regard before finalizing the Worlds team.

 

[skylark]

Ashley has been the US #1 for pretty much this entire quad. Even when she didn't hold the title she was the one getting it done. Gracie was always #1 in waiting but she never really got her footing to put herself over Ashley internationally. Ashley is not the best there is but at the very least she's reliable. She's been carrying the US women for the better part of the last 6 years. She's pretty much reliable for a top 6 finish at Worlds...no other US woman can say that right now.

Karen was strong at nationals but that was one competition. The last time she performed that well or close to it was back at nationals in 2015 when she won bronze. Karen is not a consistent competitor. I do think she has the goods to be a strong contender. She skates with a lot of speed, good edges, her jumps are big, her spins are excellent, her programs are solid and she's a good performer as well. If she were to start delivering consistently all of her scores would go up b/c her skating is actually very good. The issue is her inability to deliver consistently enough. She usually makes major errors that keep her down. Had she skated cleanly at 4CC today she'd probably be sitting in the top 2 or 3.

Karen has the potential to be #1 but having that title does not make you #1 especially if you can't back it up. It means you won a competition. Remember when Ashley won her first title back in 2012? She followed that up by going to 4CC and winning. That's how you solidify a position as #1 and prove that your results weren't a fluke or one-time thing. You win and then you back it up. After you've done that a time or two that's when ranks start taking form.

:agree: Very well stated.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Why do Worlds teams have to be announced right after nationals? Not only the US but almost all federations seem to do this when it doesn't make sense for an event nearly 2-3 months or so out.

There are international competitions like 4CC closer to worlds. I feel like the results of these competitions should be taken into consideration with serious regard before finalizing the Worlds team.

I'm ok with how it is, mainly because 4CC (unlike Euros) is timed so close to Worlds that the skaters should have the option to not participate if they need to peak for the bigger event. I think between Senior B's, GP, and Nationals, there are plenty of data points to make a good decision. Most of the US women have competed in at least 4 events by the time Nationals has finished.

 

[mrrice]

I'm ok with how it is, mainly because 4CC (unlike Euros) is timed so close to Worlds that the skaters should have the option to not participate if they need to peak for the bigger event. I think between Senior B's, GP, and Nationals, there are plenty of data points to make a good decision. Most of the US women have competed in at least 4 events by the time Nationals has finished.

This is absolutely true. This is why, IMO, a skater should aim to Peak for their perspective Nationals and then "Maintain" their form with "Sectional" or "Segmental" training until the week before they leave for Worlds. Only then, should they begin doing full run-throughs of their programs. You have to remember that you don't get a ticket to Worlds unless you're on the podium, and in some case, in the top 2 at Nationals. A skater's goal should always be to Win their Nations Championship.

 

[Manitou]

...about "snowflakes":

If that is what is intended, I think that skaters who reach the elite level are the opposite.

There are some exceptions from that rule. There used to be an entire thread about one particular "exception"..
And if we look deeper we may find even more...

I am even wondering if I should add Jason Brown to that category. It very well may be. Either way, in my opinion he is becoming probably the most overrated US male skater since Jeremy Abbott. I start to classify him in the category of "annoyances".
I really hope Nathan doesn't follow their footsteps.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Either way, in my opinion he is becoming probably the most overrated US male skater since Jeremy Abbott. I start to classify him in the category of "annoyances".

Jason has great presentation skills. Unfortunately, he'll never be consistent executing the technical level needed to compete with the top men in the world. I'd be surprised if Jason retires having landed as many quads in his career as Nathan did in his Nationals LP. The men's division has become a completely different event since Sochi.

 

[Mrs. P]

Jason has great presentation skills. Unfortunately, he'll never be consistent executing the technical level needed to compete with the top men in the world. I'd be surprised if Jason retires having landed as many quads in his career as Nathan did in his Nationals LP. The men's division has become a completely different event since Sochi.

I hope he surprises you.

Either way (this is a general statement, not aimed at youDMD): I don't see the hand wringling over skaters and the insistence in characterizing them. You like a person's skating or you don't. If you don't, skip em. Don't see the point of spending energy expounding on why you dislike them so or try to paint them as some sort of terrible person.

 

[Mathman]

I am even wondering if I should add Jason Brown to that category ["snowflakes"]. It very well may be. Either way, in my opinion he is becoming probably the most overrated US male skater since Jeremy Abbott.

I don't think that either Jeremy Abbott or Jason Brown was overrated. Instead, I think that they were the best that the U.S. had at the time. People liked watching them skate. Can't fault either the skater or the audience for that. No one expected either to compete with Yuzuru Hanyu or Patrick Chan or Javier Fernandez. There is no shame in that. Lots of skaters cannot keep pace with Hanyu, Chan, Javi and the like.

But Nathan Chen can! At eighteen, he will only get better (fingers crossed).

 

[el henry]

...about "snowflakes":



There are some exceptions from that rule. There used to be an entire thread about one particular "exception"..
And if we look deeper we may find even more...

I am even wondering if I should add Jason Brown to that category. It very well may be. Either way, in my opinion he is becoming probably the most overrated US male skater since Jeremy Abbott. I start to classify him in the category of "annoyances".
I really hope Nathan doesn't follow their footsteps.

Well I classify him as one of the skaters who never ever annoys me, in part because I have never seen him put out less than 110% effort. Even when injured and in pain.

The word "snowflake", however, except to people who follow a particular political point of view, has long been meaningless to me. No one I know uses it and no websites I visit use it and no papers I read use it. However, I agree that Jason is a snowflake. Beautiful performer and one of a kind. Put all those snowflake performances together, and you got yourself a blizzard

 

[Mrs. P]

I don't think that either Jeremy Abbott or Jason Brown was overrated. Instead, I think that they were the best that the U.S. had at the time. People liked watching them skate. Can't fault either the skater or the audience for that. No one expected either to compete with Yuzuru Hanyu or Patrick Chan or Javier Fernandez. There is no shame in that. Lots of skaters cannot keep pace with Hanyu, Chan, Javi and the like.

But Nathan Chen can! At eighteen, he will only get better (fingers crossed).

Oh Mathman, I know you mean well, but the thing with Jeremy Abbott that at one time HE was competitive with the best in the world. I think that's why people are frustrated with him. And I guess Jason's the same way to a lot of folks. They can't just be "fan favorites" because they've won enough stuff to move beyond that stage, but they haven't achieved enough to be at top of the world elite stage. .

But Jason isn't retired yet (nor is Jeremy technically) so I find the past tense regarding him sort of odd.

 

[Manitou]

I don't think that either Jeremy Abbott or Jason Brown was overrated. Instead, I think that they were the best that the U.S. had at the time. People liked watching them skate. Can't fault either the skater or the audience for that. No one expected either to compete with Yuzuru Hanyu or Patrick Chan or Javier Fernandez. There is no shame in that. Lots of skaters cannot keep pace with Hanyu, Chan, Javi and the like.

No, Jeremy was supposed to be the "second coming" as I remember. At least from the tone of the commentators.
Two years ago Jason was almost the "second coming" too. However, back then at 20 yo, he was still "not ready" to even try quadruples. Still "too young". Maybe he will be ready at 40....

 

[snowflake]

Vincent did well today at Bavarian open: 85.43 in first place I like his skating this season. He's a substitute for worlds, right? Sadly no video.

 

[Mathman]

...and you got yourself a blizzard

Now you're talking! Get out your parkas. The men take the ice for the long program tomorrow!

We're the U.S. men!
We're Nathan Chen!
We're Jason Brown!
(Plus Grant's in town!) :yes:

 

[Mathman]

No, Jeremy was supposed to be the "second coming" as I remember.

Don't fall for the hype. (U.S.) commentators get paid for hyping U.S. athletes.

Audiences enjoyed Jeremy's artistic programs, in particular Exogenisis. He went to two Olympics, finishing ninth and twelfth. What was he the second coming of?

But he did well nationally, winning four U.S. titles, and he persevered over a long career always striving to improve.

The importance of Jason Brown is not how many quads he didn't do but rather that he, to some extent, revived interest in figure skating in the U.S. at a time when general interest threatened to disappear altogether. Everyone loved the enthusiastic personality that he brought to his Riverdance performance at U.S. Nationals. He got a million views on You Tube. Good for him.

What is the point of belittling skaters and calling them names?

 

[skatespin]

Honestly, I don't think Karen is even our #3. She skated well at Nationals but Mirai and Mariah have had better seasons internationally. Karen has skated 10 international SPs as a senior and has yet to earn 63 points. Do you ignore every single international result when you make these statements?

I agree, she's like maybe our #4. Mirai breaks 60 easily with an error on the triple loop, Karen has only broken 60 one time internationally (and it wasn't even this season). Mariah's had a decent season, she makes mistakes but she doesn't completely bomb, she salvages and holds it together. I'd have Ashley as the #1 US lady internationally. Mirai's triple-triple was called clean here and it looked good at nationals as well. I think she is a safer choice for world's, US needs to do everything they can to try and get 3 spots at the Olympics. I don't want to have to watch Gracie, Ashley, Mirai, Polina... whoever is a strong 3rd next season having to stay home. 2014's ordeal was already sad enough and we had 3 spots.