US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)

[Mrs. P]

#alternative facts:

*50 percent of Golden Skate forum members thinks Jason Brown is doomed to never achieve anything else in his career. HOW DARE THEY.
*The other half are blind ubers who hate sports and don't care about cool quads. HOW DARE THEY.
*One GS member only cares if you go to the OP of every competition post for the time of the next segment (except for the Men's FS this morning. That was wrong. Very wrong. Sorry).

#humor #letstaketheedgeoff #jokes

Well, I'm going to say something guaranteed to tick off some people. Shocking, I know.

Why all the worry about the third spot for US men? Based on current performance, it's not as though the third man would be anything to write home about anyway.

I mean, we don't have a large pool of Olympic level talent right now. I mean if we had five or six who were capable of a top 10 performance, then 3 slots would be something good. But we don't have that many, and if we get that third spot, USFSA is capable of ignoring results at US Nats and sending a pet who really doesn't deserve it anyway.

At this point, I'm not worried either whether there's a third spot or not. I do know that the pain of not helping Team USA get the maximum spots is a real thing. Just ask Ashley Wagner.

 

[Mathman]

I think a third spot would be cool even if the person who gets it is not a serious factor for the podium. I wouldn't mind seeing either Vincent Zhou or Grant Hochstein at the Olympics, backing up Jason and Nathan.

 

[karne]

Why all the worry about the third spot for US men? Based on current performance, it's not as though the third man would be anything to write home about anyway.

Go look at Max's expression from 2014 Nationals. LOOK AT IT. Look at his eyes, look at the sadness around his mouth, look at the set of his shoulders, look at those eyes that say he's dying inside but he knows he has to pretend it's okay - look at him and tell me again the US doesn't need three spots, look at him and tell me again that you don't think they need three, look at him and tell me again that you don't fricking care, because I do, I care far too much, because I never, ever, ever wanted to see the look on that face again, but you apparently think that it's all okay because of your precious frigging kid and who cares about anyone else, right?

 

[TontoK]

Go look at Max's expression from 2014 Nationals. LOOK AT IT. Look at his eyes, look at the sadness around his mouth, look at the set of his shoulders, look at those eyes that say he's dying inside but he knows he has to pretend it's okay - look at him and tell me again the US doesn't need three spots, look at him and tell me again that you don't think they need three, look at him and tell me again that you don't fricking care, because I do, I care far too much, because I never, ever, ever wanted to see the look on that face again, but you apparently think that it's all okay because of your precious frigging kid and who cares about anyone else, right?

Karne, what are you talking about? My precious kid? I'm a fan of the sport and of the athletes, but I'm not related to any of these people. I don't lay awake at night worrying about any of them.

Right now, projecting ahead to next year, there are probably 4 men in the US who would have the technical chops to score Top 10 at the Olympic Games, Max being one of them. Having them fight it out for 2 spots is reasonable. And if we do have three, then the 4th guy is going to be left out. There's always someone who will be the "last man cut."

 

[andromache]

Replace Jason with Josh Farris?

Seriously though, I want as many spots as possible for everybody.

Not that I mean that I think that Russian ladies should have ten spots or that US ice dance should have seven. But generally, it's nice for everyone if they get 3 spots. We all get to see more of our faves at Worlds/Olympics.

But also if Max and/or Josh and/or Jason are in the third US spot next year, and if Nathan Chen skates awesome at Worlds this year and plays a huge role in getting back three spots for the US men, I hope that means that karne stops crapping on Nathan Chen and his fans.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think a third spot would be cool even if the person who gets it is not a serious factor for the podium. I wouldn't mind seeing either Vincent Zhou or Grant Hochstein at the Olympics, backing up Jason and Nathan.

MM you're presumptuous. Maybe Grant can get the 2nd spot if there's only two spots.

it's going to be a bloodbath whether we have 2 or 3 spots, really.

 

[bekalc]

You don't? You mean to say you don't think it'll be anything to write home about if Jason finishes 8th at Worlds and Nathan finishes 5th or higher and they bring home three spots?



Let me correct that for you. There is ONE US man landing quad Lutzes and flips. Vincent hasn't been called clean on anything. Jason was getting +GOE on the 3A prior to the injury and had also stood up on a 4T that was bogus called UR. THAT'S the ACTUAL reality.



Where's Vincent's Senior B and GP medals then?



I would be more worried about the third spot if the USFS followed stupidly short-sighted views like yours and threw A SENIOR ROOKIE onto the Worlds team in the all-important year where Olympic spots are on the line, instead of going with a tried and tested, safe and reliable competitor.

Zhou is a new Senior who was injured earlier this year.

I never said I would for sure send Zhou. I said I would wait and see what happens at other Four Continents/Bavarian Open/Junior Worlds.

And Zhou just got his Quad Sal ratified at Bavarian Open. Has a higher score in the short than Jason got at Four Continents both had mistakes but Zhou's higher content mattered.

Has Jason ever landed a quad in Senior competition-no.

As for the Jason has always been behind. Once again Jason has accomplished more in his career than most do in a life time. Fourth in the World once. National Champion, Olympic Team. But he's not improving technically in the way he needs to....

This isn't just about the Olympic team its also about investing in the future, and in folks who have legitimate shot at putting out content that will be competitive and giving them opportunities.

Not to mention Jason Brown is not in good shape, is overcoming injury. He's someone who has little room for error-due to his lack of jumping content. So-that matters. And if he is not in the top groups-his PCS will suffer.


All of this is why I would have waited to see how both men performed at their later events and then made a decision. Essentially I feel USFSA is taking a gamble on an injured skater who has little to no room for error.

Once again eighth-might happen but he could finish very much lower.

 

[TontoK]

I think a third spot would be cool even if the person who gets it is not a serious factor for the podium. I wouldn't mind seeing either Vincent Zhou or Grant Hochstein at the Olympics, backing up Jason and Nathan.

The US men's Olympic team will be some combination of Nathan, Vincent, Max, and Torgeshev.

The Oracle has spoken.

 

[karne]

And if we do have three, then the 4th guy is going to be left out. There's always someone who will be the "last man cut."

But if there are three, and the fourth guy is left off, then that is easier to bear because the spots have been maximised. If there are only two, and the third guy is left off, that is agony. And it's disgusting and disgraceful that you think that the third spot should just be thrown away because YOU don't respect the US men and only give a flip about who might medal at the Olympics. You want Nathan and Vincent on the Olympic team, fine, whatever. But get that third spot, so that someone who had to do the heavy lifting over the last cycle can go too.

 

[karne]

But also if Max and/or Josh and/or Jason are in the third US spot next year, and if Nathan Chen skates awesome at Worlds this year and plays a huge role in getting back three spots for the US men, I hope that means that karne stops crapping on Nathan Chen and his fans.

Yeah? Tell me how that worked again when Max went and helped get that third spot back. Didn't stop anyone crapping on him.

 

[TontoK]

But if there are three, and the fourth guy is left off, then that is easier to bear because the spots have been maximised. If there are only two, and the third guy is left off, that is agony. And it's disgusting and disgraceful that you think that the third spot should just be thrown away because YOU don't respect the US men and only give a flip about who might medal at the Olympics. You want Nathan and Vincent on the Olympic team, fine, whatever. But get that third spot, so that someone who had to do the heavy lifting over the last cycle can go too.

I don't think the third spot should be thrown away. Not at all. If team USA earns it, then we should fill it.

But, you're right if you're implying that I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

 

[bekalc]

But if there are three, and the fourth guy is left off, then that is easier to bear because the spots have been maximised. If there are only two, and the third guy is left off, that is agony. And it's disgusting and disgraceful that you think that the third spot should just be thrown away because YOU don't respect the US men and only give a flip about who might medal at the Olympics. You want Nathan and Vincent on the Olympic team, fine, whatever. But get that third spot, so that someone who had to do the heavy lifting over the last cycle can go too.

Who says the third spot should be thrown away? I am just not convinced sending Brown is the best idea for the third spot.

 

[andromache]

Yeah? Tell me how that worked again when Max went and helped get that third spot back. Didn't stop anyone crapping on him.

Feel free to criticize Nathan's skating as much as you want, as people have felt free to do with Max, but it seems silly to criticize Nathan and/or his fans just because he has had more success or more praise than someone else.

 

[el henry]

I don't lose sleep over anything except my spousal unit and my cats.

That said, the US men are a great bunch of skaters and I would like to see more of them rather than less. So I would love love love to see those three spots. Got bupkis to do with "deserving it".

And I am enjoying watching Grant at 4CCs, so I'm glad he was sent. He takes advantage of his opportunities. I *really* don't understand this "let's throw some kids out there so they'll get some senior experience" argument. If they're that great (like Nathan, right?) they'll take senior experience when they get it and run (well skate) with it. Otherwise, let them marinate. The US men have excellent depth and don't need to rush anyone.

Unless of course the only goal is medals. I would like to see my faves win. But I would much rather see wonderful skates. Wonderful skates and medals *aint* the same thing. If someone says "it's a sport", the old lady cane is coming out:dev2:

 

[bekalc]

Besides I think you invest in skaters long term who have the best chance of being successful-long term. I think all the focus on three spots just puts more pressure on folks at Worlds...Yes it sucks losing the third spot. But guess what it sucks for guy number four too.

Maybe sending Brown was smart but I think pretending it doesn't come with risks either is not right.

 

[mrrice]

Thinking about next year. If Joshua, Ricky, and Jeremy all come back next , it will be very difficult, with the exception of Nathan, for the rest of the current World Team to get on the National Podium next year. A healthy Adam Rippon would knock Jason and Grant off the podium. I also truly expect Max to bounce back next season. IMO, this year's Nationals were just weird for him and I will always be convinced that his decision to get a new SP was his downfall. If quads are becoming the standard over artistry, I'd have to go with Nathan, Max, and Adam/Joshua for the Olympic team. The "Wrench" will be skaters like Ross Miner, Alex Krasnozhon and Vincent Zhou. I truly don't think that the US would send a
skater who doesn't have a quad to the Olympics. If Jason is going to make the Olympic Team, he simply must have a quad. Even then, he'll have a hard staying ahead of a healthy Joshua.

 

[karne]

Feel free to criticize Nathan's skating as much as you want, as people have felt free to do with Max, but it seems silly to criticize Nathan and/or his fans just because he has had more success or more praise than someone else.

When Chen's fans act like he's some kind of new god and all the other US men (except Vincent, of course!!!) should just be thrown on the trash heap, particularly when Chen is getting some spectacularly free passes for stuff Max got crapped on for for years, then yeah, I'll take exception to it.

Got nothing against Chen himself. Kid's crazy talented, obviously.

 

[bekalc]

I don't lose sleep over anything except my spousal unit and my cats.

That said, the US men are a great bunch of skaters and I would like to see more of them rather than less. So I would love love love to see those three spots. Got bupkis to do with "deserving it".

And I am enjoying watching Grant at 4CCs, so I'm glad he was sent. He takes advantage of his opportunities. I *really* don't understand this "let's throw some kids out there so they'll get some senior experience" argument. If they're that great (like Nathan, right?) they'll take senior experience when they get it and run (well skate) with it. Otherwise, let them marinate. The US men have excellent depth and don't need to rush anyone.

Unless of course the only goal is medals. I would like to see my faves win. But I would much rather see wonderful skates. Wonderful skates and medals *aint* the same thing. If someone says "it's a sport", the old lady cane is coming out:dev2:

Yes. But Zhou placed second at Nationals this year.... And Brown hasn't been super great this year at all. I understand why they did it, but Brown didn't exactly "earn it."

And if you think Michelle Kwan and Tara Lipinski did not benefit form getting to comepete at Senior worlds at an early age...It absolutely benefits young skaters. There are plenty of places to see fun skates.

 

[Mrs. P]

Besides I think you invest in skaters long term who have the best chance of being successful-long term. I think all the focus on three spots just puts more pressure on folks at Worlds...Yes it sucks losing the third spot. But guess what it sucks for guy number four too.

Maybe sending Brown was smart but I think pretending it doesn't come with risks either is not right.

I did say it has risks...and as I said, I get the skepticism. But I think I've tried to provided measured reasons why it's not completely out of line either.

And Jason is all too aware clearly, judging by his quotes at nationals, the huge responsibility entrusted to him at Worlds.

It's clear that you have a higher standard for a "good season." If Vincent can get a pass for being an "injured" skater earlier this season who did recover, why are you assuming that Jason won't do the same thing?

 

[TontoK]

Feel free to criticize Nathan's skating as much as you want, as people have felt free to do with Max, but it seems silly to criticize Nathan and/or his fans just because he has had more success or more praise than someone else.

Anyone wanting three spots for Team USA next year... needs to get on the the Nathan Chen train right now.

A very high placement from him is the best chance we'll have.