US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)

[jFarrisFAN]

Skate America was the only decent international competition for Mariahand she still had a not so great short program. The other international medals were in a weak field with others having weak skates.

 

[Jammers]

Agree with Jaana. I don't see Jason making it to the Olympics next year. Vincent will keep working on his quads and his artistry and he will be formidable competition at Nationals. If he has a great showing in the GP next year and beats Jason by an even greater margin than this year (9 points), it will be hard for USFS to make a case for denying Vincent the spot on a basis of body of work, especially if Jason bombs at 2017 4CC and Worlds. Jason's injuries have kept him from establishing a good performance record over the past two years.

Yeah that's the thing about male skaters Vincent's age they improve dramatically between the ages of 16-19 just look at the improvement in just the last year in Nathan's overall skating. That's why he has become such a threat and who knows how good he will be in a year. Same with Vincent if he keeps improving he only has one way to go and that is up. Same with someone like a Andrew Torgashev though his time will be in 2022 and maybe 2026. However if Nathan and Jason get that 3rd spot back someone like Jason could make the team since Nathan and Vincent can only take two spots.

 

[amc987]

The USFSA should have waited until after 4CC to choose the World team. We should swap out Mariah Bell or Karen Chen for Mirai Nagasu. The US still might not get 3 spots, especially based on the way Mirai's PCS was marked (no way she should be about the same as Mihara or lower than Daleman even for a slightly reserved skate). But we definitely won't keep 3 spots with this current group of skaters.

Our only hope is for Mariah to channel her Skate America self and/or Karen to channel her Nationals self in Helsinki. Or, as bad as this sounds, for Karen or Mariah to withdraw and for 4CC Mirai to skate in her place.

 

[stella luna]

World team has already been announced ...

http://www.usfsa.org/story?id=90301&type=media

Probably won't change.

After the 4CC ladies event this week, my guess is that the USFSA will start delaying the announcement of the world team. Mirai, Marai and Karen are all not models of consistency, but I do now think that Mirai on the World team would give the US the best chance of keeping three spots. I'm not optimistic at all that these ladies can hang on to three. With questions surrounding Satoko's injury and Kaetlyn's unfortunate showing here, I do think Ashley might have a better chance at repeating as a medalist at Worlds. My new prediction for ladies at in Helsinki:
1. Evgenia
2. Anna
3. Ashley
4. Satoko
5. Kaetlyn
6. Maria
7. Mai
8. Gabby
9. Laurine
10. Wakaba
Maria and Karen somewhere around 11-12. Le sigh...

 

[NanaPat]

Go look at Max's expression from 2014 Nationals. LOOK AT IT. Look at his eyes, look at the sadness around his mouth, look at the set of his shoulders, look at those eyes that say he's dying inside but he knows he has to pretend it's okay - look at him and tell me again the US doesn't need three spots, look at him and tell me again that you don't think they need three, look at him and tell me again that you don't fricking care, because I do, I care far too much, because I never, ever, ever wanted to see the look on that face again, but you apparently think that it's all okay because of your precious frigging kid and who cares about anyone else, right?

But Karne, weren't you complaining in another thread that the "big countries" take too many Olympic spots and don't leave enough for the small countries? If the USA doesn't get a third men's spot, then that spot will be available for someone else, maybe even Australia.

I agree with TontoK that there's always someone who is the first person left out, and it can be heartbreaking for that person and people who care deeply about them. But that's not a good reason for relentlessly attacking any skater who stands in your favorite's way or any poster who takes a view that you think is contrary to your favorite's interests.

 

[Mathman]

Our only hope is for Mariah to channel her Skate America self and/or Karen to channel her Nationals self in Helsinki.

Now we're on the right track!

 

[skatinggold]

I rather have Gracie go to Worlds than Mirai. Mirai is not very reliable. Even with a flaw Gracie, she still gets overinflated PCS scores than any of these ladies going to Worlds.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I rather have Gracie go to Worlds than Mirai. Mirai is not very reliable. Even with a flaw Gracie, she still gets overinflated PCS scores than any of these ladies going to Worlds.

That was then, this is now. Gracie's placements this past season no longer suggests that. All the to U.S. ladies have struggled and placed and scored low this season. Not to mention Gracie has gone through a huge public shake-up, has real life issues to deal with, and even admitted to not being in the best shape.

 

[Tavi...]

I don't dispute anything you say I've written.

If we earn three spots, then great. But let's also not pretend that the state of US men's skating is such that there are three medal candidates fighting for those spots. I enjoy many skaters, including some whom I do not believe are Olympic caliber. I like Nathan, but he's certainly not the only American I like. I'm especially fond of a young skater from US Nats, Andrew Torgeshev. And I've always liked Max Aaron.

True, I used to really like Jason Brown. Not so much now. Maybe next year, I'll enjoy his skating more. Tastes change.

I'm not sure what I''m supposed to value about these skaters other than how much they entertain me. I suppose I'm glad they inspire people in a "world peace" sort of way, but I'm not one of those who pretend they're family or that we have some sort of special connection. I don't follow their twitters or post to their facebooks. I don't have posters on my walls or anything like that. I'd just like them to skate in a way that earns my admiration for their athleticism and artistry. That's not something out of the mainstream is it?

Since I'm appalled by the number of people who voted our reality tv president into office, I don't think I'm at all qualified to speak as to what is or is not mainstream. Nor do I think it's important.

I can tell you that as someone who performed and competed at a relatively high level in another discipline, I personally see way beyond the entertainment value of what these kids do, and I tend not to get bored with them, but rather, follow their continuing journeys with interest. My tastes don't change in people, you see. YMMV.

First of all you don't think USFSA invests in skaters. This is a political sport, and so federation support does matter, and skaters at the sport, do get at least some funding if they medal at Nationals etc. Jason was not top two at nationals-so he was placed on the team.

I agree with looking at other results but I don't think top 8 season best is a huge thing to write home about. I don't think they were necessarily wrong, but its not a huge accomplishment as to bypass nationals. Especially over a younger skater who frankly has not had the same opportunities. And that's why I keep on mentioning it. Because we are talking about bypassing nationals. And I agree with bypassing in the case of a Wagner for Sochi because Wagner medaled at the GPF that year did really well at Worlds. But Jason had one good event this season, one not so good event and doesn't have content.

So in that circumstance I am not a fan of bypassing Nationals.

As for what Jason will accomplish in the future. I would love to be proven wrong. But Jason is 22 and he has yet to master a quad not one. He's not young in the sport. Most of the men who master the quad, they have mastered at least one or two well before his age. I suspect its one thing to be able to do one and then add in others. But to not be able to do one? When you others doing multiple types of ones.

Not everyone is able to do a quad. By all accounts Jason is a hard worker, so I don't think its a matter of not trying.

I would love to be proven wrong about him, but I think when it comes to political support etc. The USFSA would be foolish to not wonder if Jason will ever be able to compete with the top men.

And once again seasonal best does not make you top 8 in the world. They are all not competiting at same competition. And as I said earlier especially with the injuries there is a LOT of men who can finish ahead of him.

IF the best USA could was 8th that's one thing but they have men coming up who are better technically and its foolish for them not to promote them.


So what I am saying is USFSA bypassed Nationals. For a guy who is technically well below the other top men. That its very much a gamble because with Brown your relying on other mistakes. Jason is not in full control of his fate at Worlds.

And then you also by doing this lose the opportunity of given a young skater an opportunity to compete under pressure and grow in that way.

I find it interesting that you are so willing to give Mariah Bell the benefit of the doubt here based on her performance at Skate America, but as to Jason, you characterize Skate America as his only good skate this season. Same situation viewed through different lenses. Quite frankly, you seem to be predisposed to think negatively of Jason and unable to see that the fact he's managed to remain relevant in this sport despite not yet having landed a fully rotated quad is a testament to everything else he does really well - better, in fact, than most of the other top men. As to "bypassing" results at Nats, that's the selection process, much as you may dislike it. IMO, Vincent simply didn't make a good enough case for himself to be placed on the World Team.

 

[bekalc]

Since I'm appalled by the number of people who voted our reality tv president into office, I don't think I'm at all qualified to speak as to what is or is not mainstream. Nor do I think it's important.

I can tell you that as someone who performed and competed at a relatively high level in another discipline, I personally see way beyond the entertainment value of what these kids do, and I tend not to get bored with them, but rather, follow their continuing journeys with interest. My tastes don't change in people, you see. YMMV.



I find it interesting that you are so willing to give Mariah Bell the benefit of the doubt here based on her performance at Skate America, but as to Jason, you characterize Skate America as his only good skate this season. Same situation viewed through different lenses. Quite frankly, you seem to be predisposed to think negatively of Jason and unable to see that the fact he's managed to remain relevant in this sport despite not yet having landed a fully rotated quad is a testament to everything else he does really well - better, in fact, than most of the other top men. As to "bypassing" results at Nats, that's the selection process, much as you may dislike it. IMO, Vincent simply didn't make a good enough case for himself to be placed on the World Team.

First of all I have said Jason is a decent competitor but he was also injured so there are so many question marks?

Why am I willing to give Mariah the benefit of the doubt well
1. She is newer. Other than Wagner the Us ladies have stagnated. So why not give her a shot to get use to that level of competition.

2. She is not going out there doing low level content. If Bell was going out there doing only triple sals/toes I would not be cutting her any slack.

3. Jason has yes done well without a quad but the sport is progressing at a much higher rate in the last two years. With men having 3 different types of quads. If not more.

4. Four years ago with a quad toe Jason could have podiumed at the Olympics now Patrick Chan may find himself off with a quad toe and a quad sal.

5. And Jason still does not have one quad

6. I could be wrong and he could get more quads but I think the smart money is investing in young talent who already had them.

 

[FlattFan]

Patrick Chan is increasingly irrelevant. What makes Jason Brown relevant? He's old. It's over for him. Stop pushing him like he's new kid on the block.

 

[bekalc]

Second I will add this people keep on saying how do I know Jason won't get it eventually?

Okay maybe the problem is not ability but if not ability then maybe it's coaching.

Ok. I will say this the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Clearly whatever Jason is doing now is clearly not working. Three years later and still no consistent quad or ratified one he has been injured two seasons in a row.

Perhaps working with a Tom Z or a Mishin or Orser or Rafe someone who is experienced with these things might change it but he is not.

But Rafe Orser etc cannot change years of training and jump approaches....

Then again even with the best coach in the world you may not have the ability to go a quad.

 

[beki]

If a positive attitude and hard work can get you a quad, Jason has the ability. I respect this young man so much. Remember it wasn't clear he would get the triple axel. Maybe quads are beyond him, but not for lack of trying.

 

[Mrs. P]

If a positive attitude and hard work can get you a quad, Jason has the ability. I respect this young man so much. Remember it wasn't clear he would get the triple axel. Maybe quads are beyond him, but not for lack of trying.

That's my take. :agree:

What it comes down to is that some people aren't satisfied with the progress Jason is making on his quads or his injury recovery. But he's not accountable to Golden Skate posters. He's accountable to the people who chose him to be on the Worlds team, i.e. USFS selection committee.

Also really the conversation seems comes down to how much you believe how much people's technical ability plays into one's career. YMMV, but my take is that the most inspiriting athletic moments happen when athletes push against and challenge the limit of what people -- or even themselves -- have put on them.

 

[Tavi...]

First of all I have said Jason is a decent competitor but he was also injured so there are so many question marks?

Why am I willing to give Mariah the benefit of the doubt well
1. She is newer. Other than Wagner the Us ladies have stagnated. So why not give her a shot to get use to that level of competition.

2. She is not going out there doing low level content. If Bell was going out there doing only triple sals/toes I would not be cutting her any slack.

3. Jason has yes done well without a quad but the sport is progressing at a much higher rate in the last two years. With men having 3 different types of quads. If not more.

4. Four years ago with a quad toe Jason could have podiumed at the Olympics now Patrick Chan may find himself off with a quad toe and a quad sal.

5. And Jason still does not have one quad

6. I could be wrong and he could get more quads but I think the smart money is investing in young talent who already had them.

I guess I'd say that someone who places fourth in his first senior Worlds, skating last with 3 spots on the line, is more than a decent competitor. I'd say that someone who skates as injured as Jason was at Nats and still manages to put out that free skate is more than a decent competitor.

As to Worlds, Jason is a team player, so I am sure that if he is still injured and can't perform better than he has done so far at 4CCs, he will withdraw in favor of the first alternate.

Mariah started skating internationally as a senior in 2014. She hasn't done more because she's an inconsistent competitor and excepting Skate America, hasn't taken advantage of the opportunities she's had. And while I would never say almost 21 is old, Mariah is in fact 3+ years older than Medvedeva, and whatever her technical content, her personal best total score is about 35 points lower than Med's. So her situation is really not so different to Jason's.

It would be silly for me to deny that men's tech has progressed at a rapid pace in the past two years and that Jason is at a huge disadvantage because of it. At the same time, I know that before Jason got injured, he landed 4T at Skate America. Yes, it was called <, but most people thought that call was wrong. Even if it was <, it was very close, and had he not been injured, who knows what would have happened at NHK? I also know that he's been training 4S, and that before he got injured, his intent was to add it by Worlds. No that's not like adding 4z or 4f, but it would have put him in a position to be competitive, especially given how good his presentation is. I agree that we have other talented younger men coming up who have quads, but I wouldn't put any of them - including Vincent - at the level of Nathan yet. Nathan is succeeding as rapidly as he is because he's an exceptional competitor and very strong jumper whose presentation is good enough that judges overlook his flaws. But the juniors coming up are unproven as yet.

As to Jason, we'll have to wait and see. You seem quite pessimistic about his chances. Without minimizing the challenges he faces, I prefer to be optimistic.

 

[Tavi...]

Patrick Chan is increasingly irrelevant. What makes Jason Brown relevant? He's old. It's over for him. Stop pushing him like he's new kid on the block.

You're trying so hard to get a rise out of people FlattFan. Isn't anyone taking the bait?

 

[skatespin]

And three other competitions that Mariah Bell medaled at this season.

She has has a great season actually. Not a perfect season, but nothing to be embarrassed by. She also is one that never gives up and keeps fighting. She often moves up in the free and never stops performing even after bobbles. So I think she is the type who will build on her 4CC experience and do better at worlds. I think she can apply it as a learning experience for worlds. Karen has been to 4CC and has not improved her standings, so id have more faith in Mariah.

I agree, if it were up to me i'd have Ashley and Mirai and then i'd probably boot Karen, because Mariah's overall resume (especially internationally) this season is better. If Mirai is having an off day at world's there's always the hope that Mariah would have another Skate America performance.

 

[Mrs. P]

I don't dispute anything you say I've written.

If we earn three spots, then great. But let's also not pretend that the state of US men's skating is such that there are three medal candidates fighting for those spots. I enjoy many skaters, including some whom I do not believe are Olympic caliber. I like Nathan, but he's certainly not the only American I like. I'm especially fond of a young skater from US Nats, Andrew Torgeshev. And I've always liked Max Aaron.

True, I used to really like Jason Brown. Not so much now. Maybe next year, I'll enjoy his skating more. Tastes change.

I'm not sure what I''m supposed to value about these skaters other than how much they entertain me. I suppose I'm glad they inspire people in a "world peace" sort of way, but I'm not one of those who pretend they're family or that we have some sort of special connection. I don't follow their twitters or post to their facebooks. I don't have posters on my walls or anything like that. I'd just like them to skate in a way that earns my admiration for their athleticism and artistry. That's not something out of the mainstream is it?

I appreciate this post, namely cause it reminds me that when we're talking during the competition threads that folks are coming from a variety of perspectives on what value they find in wathcing figure skating or watching any sport.

I know that might seem sort of dumb to mention here, but it does allow me to better see where people are coming from.

I often see athletes in the lens of their processes and competitive mindsets namely because I truly believe that raw talent and ability is only part of the equation. Not surprisingly, I'm drawn more to skaters who have shown competitive mettle through challenges or push against their limit. I am warming up to Nathan a bit, cause he does seem to be a strong competitor and of course the jumps are impressive. I endured being a Shibutanis fan during their dark days because I admire how much they pushed themselves through their challenges and now it's great to see the fruit of that hard work at this competition.

However, it's perfectly OK to me if that's not what you value. Not saying you don't value hard work, of course, but namely understand that some people just like what they like. I guess my only qualm about that is people (not really you, just a general observation) tend to put preferences, mostly subconsciously, when making a case for or against a skater.

This thread seems to have multiple lines of conversation of people who are talking over each other. I'm guilty of that too.

TL;DR: Like what you like; value what you value. Let's just understand where each other is coming from.

 

[TontoK]

I appreciate this post, namely cause it reminds me that when we're talking during the competition threads that folks are coming from a variety of perspectives on what value they find in wathcing figure skating or watching any sport.

I know that might seem sort of dumb to mention here, but it does allow me to better see where people are coming from.

I often see athletes in the lens of their processes and competitive mindsets namely because I truly believe that raw talent and ability is only part of the equation. Not surprisingly, I'm drawn more to skaters who have shown competitive mettle through challenges or push against their limit. I am warming up to Nathan a bit, cause he does seem to be a strong competitor and of course the jumps are impressive. I endured being a Shibutanis fan during their dark days because I admire how much they pushed themselves through their challenges and now it's great to see the fruit of that hard work at this competition.

However, it's perfectly OK to me if that's not what you value. Not saying you don't value hard work, of course, but namely understand that some people just like what they like. I guess my only qualm about that is people (not really you, just a general observation) tend to put preferences, mostly subconsciously, when making a case for or against a skater.

This thread seems to have multiple lines of conversation of people who are talking over each other. I'm guilty of that too.

TL;DR: Like what you like; value what you value. Let's just understand where each other is coming from.

Thanks, Mrs P. Your post was interesting.

I really like people who can compete. I like the athleticism and flair.

But, I also recognize that comes with practice. Even the most gifted natural athlete must work hard to succeed at a national or world level.

I was a Shibutani fan, then I lost interest when I perceived they weren't making progress. They worked hard and earned my interest again. Good for them. I still don't think they're best in the world, but I'm interested in their programs and their skating.

It also reinforces my point about Jason. I've lost interest, but that doesn't mean he can't earn it back.

 

[Mrs. P]

Thanks, Mrs P. Your post was interesting.

I really like people who can compete. I like the athleticism and flair.

But, I also recognize that comes with practice. Even the most gifted natural athlete must work hard to succeed at a national or world level.

I was a Shibutani fan, then I lost interest when I perceived they weren't making progress. They worked hard and earned my interest again. Good for them. I still don't think they're best in the world, but I'm interested in their programs and their skating.

It also reinforces my point about Jason. I've lost interest, but that doesn't mean he can't earn it back.

I hope he does.

That's interesting you don't think the Shibutanis aren't the best in the world...when they just placed 2nd here, only beaten by Virtue and Moir and 3rd at GPF behind just Papadakis/Cizeron. Do you mean you don't think they could be like a world champion? Anyway, in any case, I find deep satisfaction in that I believed in the Shibs when others did not and they proved me right.