2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[ice coverage]

Full disclosure:

I am a so-called "Vincent-pusher."
I am also a Max-pusher, Josh-pusher, Nathan-pusher, Ross-pusher, Grant-pusher, Jason-pusher, Adam-pusher .... :yes:.​

I was fine with USFS selecting Jason for the world team.
But I would not have been upset if USFS had chosen Vincent instead.

Others have been looking back with 20/20 hindsight, and I will do the same in response to the worst-case-scenario perspective:

If Vincent had competed at Senior Worlds instead of Jason, and if/if/if Vincent had earned his Junior Worlds score at Senior Worlds, then it would have been Vincent who placed seventh -- at his first Senior Worlds.
A strong debut that would have earned three spots (in combination with Nathan's sixth).

As a rookie at Senior Worlds, Karen Chen saved three spots for the ladies.​

I am not saying that picking Jason was wrong.
USFS made a judgment call, and things worked out well.
Just sayin' that it does not mean that things would not have worked out well if USFS had picked Vincent for Senior Worlds.

---

p.s. The "Vincent-pushers" did not try to "hush up" that an injured Vincent did not have a successful SP at Golden Spin and had to withdraw from the FS.

 

[Mrs. P]

If there's evidence that Vincent suffered because of the 2017 World Team selection, then it's worth revisiting. But otherwise, I don't see the point, again, of debating this all over again.

I think one thing is for sure, Vincent had a solid performance today. But there is no way to determine whether it's is a result of his Jr. Worlds win and/or in-spite of not being selected for the world team.

 

[frida80]

Why isn't there a "beating on a dead horse" smiley?

 

[Tahuu]

Jason had done his job to get us three Olympic spots. At that point in time no one knew if Vincent would do well if he’d have gone to Worlds.

The US men are put on notice with that SP score this early in the season. Interestingly, Nathan, Vincent and Jason would not meet each other at the GPs. Adam will meet Nathan once, Josh may see Nathan once if he gets SA, Max will fight with Vincent twice. If we were to assume Nathan and Vincent to win over their countrymen at the GPs and nationals, Jason may have the advantage over Adam, Max and Josh in getting better GP placements. A crucial competition for Jason, Adam and Josh would be NHK, where they will show USFS who is better at a head-to-head competition internationally.

Speaking of Vincent’s quads, I downloaded and looked at them frame-by-frame. Both the 4Lz and 4F touched down on his toe pick in a forward position before he pivoted and got his blade on the ice. He used the same toe pick landing technique for his 4S as well.

 

[Ender]

With UR quads, even if it's bad, I doubt that Zhou is going to get called. I think ISU will be very lenient during Olympic season. It's like creating a good impression before the media that US skaters are supper and all..

 

[Tahuu]

Yeah, Shoma's PR has never been called. Vincent's UR probably will not be called by spinning on his toe pick not his blade at landing.

 

[ice coverage]

To close the loop re athlete list for the USOC media summit in September:

Over the last three days, all of the other shoes that I would have expected now have dropped.

As of Jul 21, seventeen skaters are on the list.

Nathan, Vincent, Jason, Adam.
Karen, Ashley, Mariah, Mirai, Gracie.
Alexa, Chris.
Maia, Alex, Madi Chock, Evan, Madi Hubbell, Zach.​

I would be pleasantly surprised if the list had further updates re skaters.
Now I will look forward to some good content from the summit to be published in September and thereafter.

---

ETA:

If anyone has not yet been charmed by Krasnozhon's lovable hamminess, check out this group rendition of Happy Birthday in honor of Ashley Cain (who along with Timothy is away training overseas with Team Mozer for three weeks):
https://www.instagram.com/p/BW2swXoBD-d/?taken-by=the.cains (Jul 22)​

 

[Mathman]

No one can blame American fans who are enthusiastic about the prospects of Nathan Chen and now Vincent Zhou. We haven't fielded a true quadster since Tim Goebel in 2002.

 

[Hyena]

Re: the scores and whether or not Vincent's quads were underrotated, remember that it's mid-July and this was Skate Detroit. It's not really worth dissecting the technical calls or the scores from summer competitions IMO because I've never noticed any relationship between your scores over the summer and your scores once the season truly begins. What we DO get from summer competitions is a good look at choreography and form...and Vincent's looking good for July.

 

[shmay]

I'm not sure Jason's FP music will really take him where he wants to go this year. I think it will grow on me over time, but I can't see the average once-ever-four-years hausfrau digging it.

He's not a medal contender for O's, so I think it would have been wise of him to shoot for another 'buzzworthy'-type freeskate rather than this.

 

[TontoK]

I'm not sure Jason's FP music will really take him where he wants to go this year. I think it will grow on me over time, but I can't see the average once-ever-four-years hausfrau digging it.

He's not a medal contender for O's, so I think it would have been wise of him to shoot for another 'buzzworthy'-type freeskate rather than this.

It's going to be a fascinating season.

I wouldn't call myself a huge Jason fan, but I love what I've seen of his LP. Of all the early programs I've seen, his has, by far, the most appeal.

Do I think he can win the Olympics with it? No. Can he make the US team? Maybe, but not with certainty.

But, none of that has anything to do with the beauty of that program.

 

[karne]

No one can blame American fans who are enthusiastic about the prospects of Nathan Chen and now Vincent Zhou. We haven't fielded a true quadster since Tim Goebel in 2002.

*hits the roof in fury* YES, YOU HAVE! It's just that US fans and the USFS have spent the last four years claiming "it's not all about the quad, go away Max" and then suddenly these kids come along and fancy that, it's all about the quad again!

Max is not to be thrown aside lightly in favor of some flavour-of-the-month - and unlike Zhou he rotates his quads!

 

[shine]

*hits the roof in fury* YES, YOU HAVE! It's just that US fans and the USFS have spent the last four years claiming "it's not all about the quad, go away Max" and then suddenly these kids come along and fancy that, it's all about the quad again!

Max is not to be thrown aside lightly in favor of some flavour-of-the-month - and unlike Zhou he rotates his quads!

But maybe there's a reason why people (fans and judges) got excited about Nathan's quads and not Max's... Chen's quads are exciting, but personally it's not what drew me to his skating. Max didn't do the same for me.

 

[karne]

But maybe there's a reason why people (fans and judges) got excited about Nathan's quads and not Max's... Chen's quads are exciting, but personally it's not what drew me to his skating. Max didn't do the same for me.

But that's not what we're talking about (leaving aside the blatant double-standard of Chen getting 91 PCS for a program that was stroke-stroke-jump!).

Mathman is blatantly revising history by claiming Chen is the first quadster since Goebel. If you don't like Max, fine, whatever, but DON'T ERASE HIM FROM US SKATING JUST BECAUSE YOU LIKE CHEN BETTER.

 

[Mathman]

^ I knew you were going to say that.

I don't like anybody better than anyone else (although I admit to having a soft spot in my heart for Boyang Jin).

Tim Goebel did 3 quads in a long program when such a feat was unheard of. If someone now comes along and does a quad toe and a quad Salchow, well, good for him, but that will not win any prizes. The new standard is 4 or 5 or 6 quads, including quad Lutzes, quad flips and quad loops. The game has been elevated beyond even outstanding world champions like Javier Fernandez and Patrick Chan.

There have certainly been other U.S. skaters who have landed quads -- Grant Hochstein, for instance -- but by a "quadster" (maybe I should have said "Quad King" I meant something different.

Anyway, Max Aaron is a fine skater and should have won the 2016 U.S. Championship. (Sorry, Adam Rippon fns -- just my opinion. )

 

[karne]

Tim Goebel did 3 quads in a long program when such a feat was unheard of.

And Max Aaron was landing 2 quads in a long program at a time when no other US man could even regularly land one. For which he proceeded to get years of hate and ill-wishes, and for which he suffered even as late as 2016 - the season where he became the only current US man to have won a GP.

 

[Mathman]

Yeah, Shoma's PR has never been called. Vincent's UR probably will not be called by spinning on his toe pick not his blade at landing.

I agree that the tech specialists will probably be lenient here. Most of the skaters that use this toe-pick rotation technique seem to do OK. Mirai Nagasu is a noticeable counter-example, but sometimes she is way off and the tech caller's hand is forced.

 

[Mathman]

And Max Aaron was landing 2 quads in a long program at a time when no other US man could even regularly land one.

I withdraw my post. Max Aaron was the best U.S. quadster between Tim Goebel and the young guns who are out there at present. Judges held him back in PCS, but I don't think they did so out of ill-feeling or spite.

 

[TontoK]

I remember when Michelle Kwan was the "jumping bean" who really didn't have much to offer artistically.

People took to their fainting couches at the prospect of so many triple jumps in ladies skating.

Things change. And part of the current big change is a quantum leap (no pun intended) in jumping difficulty among men.

The genie isn't going back in the bottle.

And, for the record, Max Aaron was ROBBED.

 

[mrrice]

Shockingly, I have never seen Max skate in person but I plan on fixing that at Nationals this year. However, I have seen Tim Goebel and I'm going to say this as politely as I can. He wasn't my cup of tea.. He did do a couple of quads at Worlds in 2001 but, due to their lack of height, I much preferred Todd Eldredge's jumps even though he didn't do a quad. Todd was so much faster and had much deeper edges than Tim. Tim won Nationals that year but, a quadless Todd beat him at Worlds and, IMO, rightly so. Skaters tend to be faster in person and Max looks so fast on TV that I can only imagine how fast is in person. In 2016, like others have said, I thought Max was spectacular and it really could have gone either way.

Max had a rough Nationals last year however, if he can get his jumps back, I could certainly see him beating Vincent. Vincent was great this weekend but, IMO, he still skates like a young boy. He is the future but......Max has the power and the talent take his title back if he can hold it together like his old self. He is still extremely popular and all it will take is a decent showing in the SP and Max will vault right back up the ladder with fans and hopefully the judges as well.