2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Arriba627]

^^^The finger wag is everything. Love it! :clapper:

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

And here's his "Stole the Show" EX, which I only recently read he choreographed. Really shows his personality, swagger and charm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IWrJOhUVl0

I've seen this live multiple times and was less than impressed. hwell:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

...because the tech panel decided not to call obvious <, for whatever reason.

Even if he has gotten < called he still would have blown everyone out of the water - and not just the ones he competed against. Diminishing his very impressive skate by saying the technical panel was lenient is a bit unfair. Not to mention those jumps weren't obviously UR to me, unless you scrutinize the pre-rotation and slow motion every landing - which is kinda pointless because it doesn't affect the result, and the tech specialist might have been lenient given it wasn't exactly Worlds or the Olympics; it's Skate Detroit.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes, Vincent skates like a young boy,

Totally! He's skating like he's only 16 years old or something. You would think he was coming straight out of juniors! I mean,come on, where's the Chan level skating skills and Hanyu level transitions? He's had so much time between Junior Worlds and Skate Detroit, and clearly isn't making any efforts to improve. :sarcasm:

 

[Plisskin]

Totally! He's skating like he's only 16 years old or something. You would think he was coming straight out of juniors! I mean,come on, where's the Chan level skating skills and Hanyu level transitions? He's had so much time between Junior Worlds and Skate Detroit, and clearly isn't making any efforts to improve. :sarcasm:

Thank you. Reading the last few pages is sad. I wish Americans wouldn't tear down their skaters so much, especially young ones like Vincent coming fresh out of juniors. I like that about the Japanese and Canadians that generally, they are nice and cheer their skaters on.

 

[visaliakid]

Well it's easy to see that he still skates like a boy, because he is a boy. Some boy's take longer than others to develop a maturity which then aids in finding maturity with performing on the ice. I refuse to push my views on skaters as to how or when they find that next level of emotional development. Give the boy his time to find himself. The skating skills will come if his coaches work with him on developing the skills for the higher skating levels.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Well it's easy to see that he still skates like a boy, because he is a boy. Some boy's take longer than others to develop a maturity which then aids in finding maturity with performing on the ice. I refuse to push my views on skaters as to how or when they find that next level of emotional development. Give the boy his time to find himself. The skating skills will come if his coaches work with him on developing the skills for the higher skating levels.

Well this happens every time there's a technical star on the rise. People constantly knock them for not skating more mature (see: Jin, and even Hanyu in his first senior season - still in his teens - got some eye-roll worthy "skates like a boy not a man" comments).

But better to be a boy with tons of quads and a shot to reach the Olympics and challenge the faves, than a boy who skates maturely but lacks the firepower to compete.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Thank you. Reading the last few pages is sad. I wish Americans wouldn't tear down their skaters so much, especially young ones like Vincent coming fresh out of juniors. I like that about the Japanese and Canadians that generally, they are nice and cheer their skaters on.

Well, I'm sure these folks are happy for Zhou's acceleration - as long as he doesn't knock their faves off the Olympic team, which is a very real possibility. They want him and Chen to be the future of US skating (and they are)... they'd just rather it be the not-this-season-future, so they're already poking holes in a pre-season performance. I mean, we cut Jason slack for doing just doubles to get a feel for his programs, but when Zhou lays down that many quads and huge scores the knee jerk reaction for some is "he hasn't sufficiently improved his artistry".

It's funny, because if he were just ho-hum technically (ie one quad, maybe two, and easier ones at that), people probably wouldn't be criticizing Zhou's artistic shortcomings as much (and trust me, they will have MUCH to say about his artistry/PCS scores/jump technique should he slay on the Grand Prix).

 

[shine]

I've seen this live multiple times and was less than impressed. hwell:

Hey that's okay Ic3Rabbit, I'm sure Nathan wouldn't have minded, as he was reportedly too busy bringing the house down at all those SOI stops with this number.

 

[Mrs. P]

Well, I'm sure these folks are happy for Zhou's acceleration - as long as he doesn't knock their faves off the Olympic team, which is a very real possibility. They want him and Chen to be the future of US skating (and they are)... they'd just rather it be the not-this-season-future, so they're already poking holes in a pre-season performance. I mean, we cut Jason slack for doing just doubles to get a feel for his programs, but when Zhou lays down that many quads and huge scores the knee jerk reaction for some is "he hasn't sufficiently improved his artistry".

It's funny, because if he were just ho-hum technically (ie one quad, maybe two, and easier ones at that), people probably wouldn't be criticizing Zhou's artistic shortcomings as much (and trust me, they will have MUCH to say about his artistry/PCS scores/jump technique should he slay on the Grand Prix).

There was plenty of criticism of Jason's Skate Milwaukee performance and why he didn't try quads, FWIW.

As for me, I don't feel that strongly one way or another about Vincent's performance here other than good for him for trying the quads and I did see improvements in his performance ability. However, I think it's important to stress it's a marathon, not a sprint, and one performance at a summer competition isn't necessarily a predictor of future performance or that he's a slam dunk for the Olympic team.

Also, what's wrong with people having their favorites? My friend hates Kevin Durant and loves Russ Westbrook . She's not apologetic about it nor do I expect her to love KD cause he's a freakin' amazing basketball player (I'm a GSW fan as many know and my friend, obviously is a OKC fan -- basketball for those wondering). I'm not sure why figure skating fans are suppose to suddenly be apologists for other skaters if they don't like their skating.

I tend to be more like you CSG and tend to hold a pretty neutral view of my favorite's competitors (and I like Russ Wessbrook despite being a GSW fan) but not everyone is like that and I think they're entitled to their criticism.

But better to be a boy with tons of quads and a shot to reach the Olympics and challenge the faves, than a boy who skates maturely but lacks the firepower to compete.

OK, so you're saying that the only way a person can show competitive firepower to compete is to come in and complete as many quad jumps as possible? I have a feeling you don't mean this cause I've seen your other posts stating otherwise. Are you saying that a 19-year-old Jason Brown who basically brought the house down at U.S. Nationals lacked competitive firepower cause he didn't have quad jumps? Mature presentation is not a competitive trait?

I'm just being a devil's advocate, honestly.

 

[karne]

Perhaps I would be more inclined to be less critical if the fans of these "young hotshots" didn't immediately barge in and proclaim that all the other US men should be thrown on the trash heap as soon as either young hotshot showed as much as a skerrick of form!

 

[shmay]

He's had so much time between Junior Worlds and Skate Detroit, and clearly isn't making any efforts to improve. :sarcasm:

Hate to break it to you, but at the Olympics they unfortunately won't be giving out ribbons for 'most improved' or 'great effort!' or whatever. It's not summer camp.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

There was plenty of criticism of Jason's Skate Milwaukee performance and why he didn't try quads, FWIW.

As for me, I don't feel that strongly one way or another about Vincent's performance here other than good for him for trying the quads and I did see improvements in his performance ability. However, I think it's important to stress it's a marathon, not a sprint, and one performance at a summer competition isn't necessarily a predictor of future performance or that he's a slam dunk for the Olympic team.

Also, what's wrong with people having their favorites? My friend hates Kevin Durant and loves Russ Westbrook . She's not apologetic about it nor do I expect her to love KD cause he's a freakin' amazing basketball player (I'm a GSW fan as many know and my friend, obviously is a OKC fan -- basketball for those wondering). I'm not sure why figure skating fans are suppose to suddenly be apologists for other skaters if they don't like their skating.

I tend to be more like you CSG and tend to hold a pretty neutral view of my favorite's competitors (and I like Russ Wessbrook despite being a GSW fan) but not everyone is like that and I think they're entitled to their criticism.



OK, so you're saying that the only way a person can show competitive firepower to compete is to come in and complete as many quad jumps as possible? I have a feeling you don't mean this cause I've seen your other posts stating otherwise. Are you saying that a 19-year-old Jason Brown who basically brought the house down at U.S. Nationals lacked competitive firepower cause he didn't have quad jumps? Mature presentation is not a competitive trait?

I'm just being a devil's advocate, honestly.

Well firstly, Brown is a huge anomaly. A lack of quads hasn't hindered him from being prolific and showing the world his talent, however it has hindered him from competing against the top guys in his first few seasons. It didn't stop him from going to the Olympics and getting GP medals - testament to his artistry - but he's never been perceived as one of the top guns. Not to take anything away (I LOVE Jason's skating), but he was also fortunate that there weren't other consistent quadsters other than Max (who Jason could easily make up ground on and surpass with quality of execution and PCS). I really really wish he got a couple quads because he absolutely deserves to win a Worlds but the sport has progressed and you have to be fair to the guys who are upping their technical game because few can match Brown/Chan/Hanyu artistically.

Zhou/Nathan isn't nearly as talented as Jason is artistically IMO but their goal was to WIN no matter what and hence why I said it's better to bring the firepower and give yourself a shot to win rather than not have the jumps and be resigned to the next tier of skaters, albeit one of the most artistic ones in Brown's case. I don't think Brown would ever compromise his artistry for clean quads, nor should he, but a skater who is ambitious about creating a splash in their debut season instead of waiting for their turn or for the judges to eventually warm up to them, has no choice but to attempt more difficult content than others.

Oh, and I love KD (and Westbrook!)... Peyton got him good at the ESPYS though. I try to be neutral (we can appreciate multiple athletes!), although some skaters I obviously like more than others. I just don't like when folks tear down really great performances, although everyone's entitled to be a critic. There's a way to express that Vincent isn't there yet without bashing him and still respecting what he did at Skate Detroit - lots of folks have expressed Zhou's shortcomings and program issues (while amazed by his quads, I also acknowledged he was slow and flaily in the tail end of his program for example).

 

[Mrs. P]

Well firstly, Brown is a huge anomaly. A lack of quads hasn't hindered him from being prolific and showing the world his talent, however it has hindered him from competing against the top guys in his first few seasons. It didn't stop him from going to the Olympics and getting GP medals but he's never been perceived as one of the top guns. Not to take anything away (I LOVE Jason's skating), but he was also fortunate that there weren't other consistent quadsters other than Max who Jason could make up ground on and surpass with quality of execution and PCS.

Zhou/Nathan isn't nearly as talented as Jason is artistically but his goal was to win and hence why I said it's better to bring the firepower and give yourself a shot to win rather than not have the jumps and be resigned to the next tier of skaters, albeit one of the most artistic ones in Brown's case. I don't think Brown would ever give up his artistry for clean quads nor should he, but a skater who is ambitious about creating a splash in their debut season instead of waiting for their turn or for the judges to eventually warm up to them, has no choice but to attempt more difficult content than others.

I agree Jason's a bit of an unusual case -- not to mention that jumps has always been challenging for him -- so perhaps isn't the greatest example. But I still think that deciding perhaps to compete in a different way -- i.e. well-rounded programs vs. stuffing as many quads as possible -- doesn't mean that skater lacks competitive fire power. And that's kind of my point -- the reason why Jason's ended up with such decent results in spite of his technical challenges and managed to beat his competitors is because he has that competitive drive. And he did make a splash in his debut season, again in spite of technical challenges. All that said, I don't dispute that he needs quads to break to the next level -- but it's not like he hasn't tried.

I don't think it's wrong that Vincent wants to do a 6-quad program, but I also don't think that he's competitively more superior than maybe a skater like Jun Hwan Cha who is clearly taking a different approach.

 

[frida80]

Nathan couldn't be a regular cast member because he was competing at WTT. He was automatically signed up for six shows. Based on fan reviews and fan videos, audiences loved him and considered him one of the best performances for every show. In fact, he was one of the few performances they liked. Not to mention the response he got at Dreams on Ice In Japan. Nathan's exhibition has been very popular.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Agreed Mrs.P. And skaters should compete what they feel comfortable showing because nobody likes a splatfest. But if I'm a skater who wants to get points to win, I'm assured extra points for a ratified quad - like, they have no choice but to give me those points. But if I improve artistically, it's at a judge's whim to augment my score. Especially going into a senior season the pressure is there to not be a junior - you know your base PCS will already be 1.50-2.50 less than the top of the pack ( which translates to about 10-15 points in a competition).

Vincent already knows he will not get PCS over 40/80 even if he's as good as Jason artistically is. He's a junior turned senior. He starts the season with a base threshold of PCS - even on home ice with a 4Z and 4F his PCS was easily under 40. International judges would be even more harsh and put the top guys even further away in terms of PCS gap.

Improving artistically will eventually make up the gap, but what if I want to win *now* and have the technical ability to do so? I sure as heck won't dumb myself down and hope the judges acknowledge it and give me a measly 2-3 points more PCS for acknowledging my artistic strides (so instead of a 15 point gap it's only 13 now). I'm gonna pack in all the tech content I'm capable of executing and get guaranteed points that make up for that expected PCS gap.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Nathan couldn't be a regular cast member because he was competing at WTT. He was automatically signed up for six shows. Based on fan reviews and fan videos, audiences loved him and considered him one of the best performances for every show. In fact, he was one of the few performances they liked. Not to mention the response he got at Dreams on Ice In Japan. Nathan's exhibition has been very popular.

Go ahead and say what you want, I mentioned earlier that I did not like the program it was nothing spectacular, his second exhibition is fine if it didn't have the annoying ringing phone in it. He's not the only one that was on the cast that competed at WTT yet they all seemed to make it work, so that excuse is invalid.

 

[frida80]

Go ahead and say what you want, I mentioned earlier that I did not like the program it was nothing spectacular, his second exhibition is fine if it didn't have the annoying ringing phone in it. He's not the only one that was on the cast that competed at WTT yet they all seemed to make it work, so that excuse is invalid.

The only other competitor that toured with SOI that did WTT was Ashley, I believe. She did one additional show. Both Karen and Nathan were featured skaters and both well received. This is a mute point, since doing all shows it's not indicative of the popularity of the skater if they don't do all show. More like the availability.

The point still remains Nathan's exhibition is popular and well received by audiences. You may not like it, but that's your opinion.

 

[ice coverage]

USFS has updated its site with 2017-18 team envelopes.

The mini-headline (IMO) for the men is that Adam Rippon has Team A funding, although he does not meet the Team A criteria.

"Consideration will be given to place athletes who were in the top 10 at Worlds in 2016 but could not compete in 201 [sic] due to injury or illness into Team A – Tier 2," per the 2017-18 team envelope criteria.​

Otherwise, Team A and Team B men meet the respective criteria.

Jordan Moeller has Team C funding, although he does not meet the criteria.

"Consideration to place the athletes in Team C - Tier 1 will be given for senior level skaters placing lower at the U.S. Figure Skating Championships where the event was very strong or the results were very close."​

Team A: Rippon, Chen, Brown

Team B: Hochstein, Aaron, Miner, Zhou

Team C: Johnson, Moeller, Krasnozhon, Pulkinen, Dolensky, Torgashev, Rabbitt, Dunk

Team D: Sjoberg, Naumov, Kang, Tran, Melnyk (who does not meet the criteria), Graham, Lunin

Reserve Team: Savary, Hubbart

 

[Mathman]

Perhaps I would be more inclined to be less critical if the fans of these "young hotshots" didn't immediately barge in and proclaim that all the other US men should be thrown on the trash heap as soon as either young hotshot showed as much as a skerrick of form!

The funny thing is that the young hotshots themselves are so very respectful of their "elders" and are the first to say how much they admire and learn from them. Boyang Jin and Shoma Uno, coming up, were so respectful of Yuzura Hanyu that at one point Hanyu said it made him feel old.