Ladies OGM Contenders 2018 | Page 17 | Golden Skate

Ladies OGM Contenders 2018

I dislike when a skater has a hook landing, are skaters penalized for that? Whether or not Karen's jumps here are rotated, there is still a flaw in her technical ability if she constantly hooks the landings... we have seen this with other skaters as well...

It's obviously not ideal, but it is a small flaw, particularly when looking at the overall quality otherwise.

What's worse, a big jump with a hooked landing, or a small jump with a hooked entrance (aka, excessive pre-rotation). Jumping bigger is more difficult every time. Better to do a real jump with some turn on the landing, than to do a small jump where you cheat the entrance in order to expend less energy and give the appearance of a fully backwards landing.

Unfortunately the GOE guidelines do not currently work like that and are long overdue for a change.

You're definitely seeing very different things in your screenshots.

I am seeing the truth. You have yet to plausibly refute that the jump was more than 1/4 turn short, which is what's needed to make the under rotation call. After all these years you still don't understand how to measure jump rotation. You just keep saying fallacies like "a hooked landing means the jump deserves an underrotation call".
 
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We don't need this thread. What we need is Ladies OSM Contenders 2018 thread.

I disagree. Even if we're looking only at Ladies OG medalists, what happens is that Anything Can Happen. I mean, Michelle Kwan. I thought back to 1968; Peggy Fleming is the closest (except Michelle) to a "done deal" that I know of, but that may have been only from an American perspective.


I mean the reigning World silver medalist didn't hit a single 7 triple LP in international competition last season (who also had edge and rotation and nerve issues throughout the season). Now she's seen as one of the major contenders for a medal and some even think can beat Med. It goes to show you that anything can happen. I've seen a lot of surprises at the Olympics, and an American skater who has shown she can place in the top 5 at Worlds would not be a surprise medalist by any stretch of the imagination to me, especially if they hit their routines to do so.

Well said!:agree:

I've also been wondering why Kaetlyn has been regarded as practically a shoe-in medalist. I love her, esp with last season's programs. But look at her record. The only reason I can see for all the expectations is that she doesn't (usually) UR her jumps, and her jumps are big. When you have to look at things in slo-mo to determine placements, figure skating has lost a lot. Kaetlyn's a lovely performer, too, but not more so than Ashley, Karen, Mariah, Mai Mihara, Anna .... YMMV, along with personal taste.


With all due respect, I think you underestimate the Olympic ice a bit.

Maybe I make myself enemies now, but the US girls tend to come out of nowhere and grab the gold all the time. It is something that Americans just have, to be there when it counts. The Olympics are also far from home, which is usually not the worst condition for US American athletes, who have to deal with pressure from home.

I wouldn´t be surprised if the US Ladies play a much bigger role than many would think. It´s just in their DNA, to peak when it really matters. Look how well Gracie did at Sochi, a 4th place for a relatively new contender, that was amazing.

Again, I agree. It's refreshing to see posters taking into account factors other than # of triples, edge calls, URs, yada yada yada. :) Those things matter, but they're not the whole story.
 
It's obviously not ideal, but it is a small flaw, particularly when looking at the overall quality otherwise.

What's worse, a big jump with a hooked landing, or a small jump with a hooked entrance (aka, excessive pre-rotation). Jumping bigger is more difficult every time. Better to do a real jump with some turn on the landing, than to do a small jump where you cheat the entrance in order to expend less energy and give the appearance of a fully backwards landing.

Huge height doesn't matter if the skater doesn't sufficiently rotate the jump. Her 2nd lutz at Worlds was huge too... although I'm sure you thought that was perfectly sufficient in rotation too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga5g333e_fU&t=6m30s :sarcasm:


You just keep saying fallacies like "a hooked landing means the jump deserves an underrotation call".

Actually, I said a hooked landing is "flawed technique that indicates under-rotation, and as such, the skater would get reduced GOE". I didn't say a hooked landing should automatically get assigned a UR call.

Nice surprise that you acknowledge that those who hook are flawed in technique -- for sure, I thought you would have been in defense of hookers. Tremendously big of you. :biggrin:
 
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That's a valid interpretation of the actual rule.

No it isn't. Where do you even get this idea? A jump could be landed fully backwards and still have a hooked landing, as a result of the skater not controlling the landing and swinging around after they land.

Huge height doesn't matter if the skater doesn't sufficiently rotate the jump.

Yes it does. It's very possible to do an underrotated jump that deserves significant +GOE. It's also obviously possible to do a sufficiently rotated jump that deserves -GOE. The end result being that an underrotated jump can deserve more points than a jump which was rotated better but worse in other regards.
 
No it isn't. Where do you even get this idea? A jump could be landed fully backwards and still have a hooked landing, as a result of the skater not controlling the landing and swinging around after they land.



Yes it does. It's very possible to do an underrotated jump that deserves significant +GOE. It's also obviously possible to do a sufficiently rotated jump that deserves -GOE. The end result being that an underrotated jump can deserve more points than a jump which was rotated better but worse in other regards.

While its true that a jump can be rotated and have a hooked landing, that's not the case with Karen's toe from NHK. Furthermore, no underrottated jump ever deserves +GOE. I agreed that even if someone has bigger jumps it doesn't matter if they aren't fully rotated. Meds jumps are huge but I would take them over an underrotatted jump ANY day.

Luckily in the case of NHK, the tech controller knew what they were looking at and made the correct call. People will always choose to argue for their favourites. Personally I prefer tech calls to be on the strict side. After all it's a sport and people won't correct underrotations/prerotations/edges unless they get called on them repeatedly, why would you??
 
No it isn't. Where do you even get this idea? A jump could be landed fully backwards and still have a hooked landing, as a result of the skater not controlling the landing and swinging around after they land.



Yes it does. It's very possible to do an underrotated jump that deserves significant +GOE. It's also obviously possible to do a sufficiently rotated jump that deserves -GOE. The end result being that an underrotated jump can deserve more points than a jump which was rotated better but worse in other regards.

Come on. You know that a skater over-rotating and swinging around on a hooked landing is different than a skater that under-rotates a jump and hooks the landing on the ice so they exit backwards. The former is not what we are talking about in Karen's case.

I know it's possible for an underrotated jump to get +GOE.. we see it happen to top skaters all the time. I don't think it's right, but also, I also think that a 30% deduction is severe enough, so if a jump otherwise looked pristine, giving 0 GOE isn't egregious. I personally wouldn't give a UR jump anything higher than 0 GOE, because if the jumping pass is under-rotated, it is not a successful element IMO -- even a 0 is generous because that's baseline. Somebody landing the jump fully-rotated, but averagely executed (as in, no error, just nothing special about it), should be rewarded more than someone who does entry transitions/good height/etc. but fails to land the jump properly. That's jumping 101 -- land the jump. Sure, if it's poor height, or leg wrap, or flutzing, or a lean, then yeah, deduct... but ultimately it comes down to how the jump is landed.

If you personally consider under-rotations as not so severe -- and I should clarify, landing under-rotations, not pre-rotation-related underrotations which you seem to be more miffed about -- then yes, I understand why you would think that way, and consider jumps like those particular examples of Karen's as "legit" or "good enough". But the judges might not be as lenient as you on landing rotation or as tough as you on pre-rotations. Certainly not under the current rules, and certainly not at the Olympics.
 
While its true that a jump can be rotated and have a hooked landing, that's not the case with Karen's toe from NHK.

Nobody said her jump was perfectly rotated, but it doesn't need to be. The rule is that a jump needs to be within 1/4 turn and this rule makes sense. I've shown her jump was within 1/4 and you refuse to listen to the evidence. Moreover, you have no real reasoning and provide no scientific measurement of your own. You just say that you think it deserved to be called because you see a hook on the landing.

Her toeloop at 2017 Worlds SP was the same thing and it did not get an underrotation call (nor did it deserve one). So either way you disagreed with a tech caller. You can't have it both ways and try to use nonsense arguments like "the caller knew what they were doing". One of the callers was wrong.

Furthermore, no underrottated jump ever deserves +GOE.

Incorrect. While it may be uncommon, it is possible to do a jump that is superb in all regards, including a flowing landing, yet simply comes down a little more than 1/4 short on the rotation. Or if a jump is drastically pre-rotated and lacks more than 1/4 rotation in total from takeoff to landing point, the same thing applies (although such cases are very rare indeed, because jumps that are pre-rotated this much tend to be inherently smaller, thus less deserving of +GOE).

See here - Mao Asada 2010 Triple Axel

A beautiful Triple Axel that definitely deserved +GOE...but it was a little more than 1/4 turn underrotated. Just because it deserves the underrotation deduction, that doesn't mean it wasn't also a great jump and deserving of bonus points for GOE. They are separate things.

I personally wouldn't give a UR jump anything higher than 0 GOE, because if the jumping pass is under-rotated, it is not a successful element IMO -- even a 0 is generous because that's baseline. Somebody landing the jump fully-rotated, but averagely executed (as in, no error, just nothing special about it), should be rewarded more than someone who does entry transitions/good height/etc. but fails to land the jump properly.

This makes no logical sense. Underrotation is separate from how well a jump was landed (and also other aspects of the jump). Someone can underrotate a jump and have more flow out on the landing than someone else who got better rotation. Also, there is often very little difference between a jump that deserves an under rotation call and a jump that doesn't. A few degrees of difference in the rotation, virtually indistinguishable, likely entirely indistinguishable without slow-mo.

Furthermore, underrotating a jump doesn't make it a "not successful element" altogether, it simply makes it an easier element. Not much different than comparing a Double Lutz to a Triple Lutz. A 2Lutz jump can deserve +3 GOE, regardless of the fact that it is missing a full turn of rotation as compared to a 3Lutz.

An underrotated 3Lutz is simply the skater getting into the rotation too late or not squeezing their body quite well enough or even breaking out of the rotation too early. It's very possible to do a planned underrotated jump, such as a "1.5" or "2.5" jump, where you specifically try to not land backwards. There is actually quite a famous case of a skater planning a couple jumps of this type for competitive purpose -- Ilia Averbuhk in 2002 purposefully did underrotated Single Axel jumps in the Free Dance for choreographic effect.

That's jumping 101

The definition of a jump is springing your body into the air. It can be very fun, ever been on a trampoline? Rotation is something you can do to make a jump more difficult.

Imagine a huge powerful Triple Flip from Midori Ito that happens to come down a little more than 1/4 turn short on the landing, but with clean outflow. Such a jump (3Flip< with +2 GOE) is more impressive and deserves more points than a tiny, spindly Triple Flip with no outflow on the landing, from some random Junior skater who happened to get past the 1/4 turn mark on the rotation (3Flip with -1GOE). This Junior skater's smaller and less developed body allowing them to spin themselves off the ice and complete enough of the rotation to be okay on paper doesn't mean they did a good jump. They in fact did a worse jump, despite getting a little bit more rotation on it.
 
I have never seen an UR jump that looks smooth, so yeah...

Then watch Ashley's 3F-3T combos, especially as commentated by the British Eurosport guys. During the performances, they almost always rave about the jumps' good speed & flow out, and that the jumps looked clean. Then, on slo-mo replay, they sometimes have second thoughts.

IMHO, any tech replays should be done at actual speed. If an UR can't be seen without several close-up slo-mo reviews, the jump should be counted as clean.
 
I have never seen an UR jump that looks smooth, so yeah...

Did you even look at the example above?

You've seen smooth underrotated jumps, you just didn't sense them as being underrotated because they were smooth. Particularly if it's underrotated as a result of cheating the takeoff, such as with the toelooops of Evgenia Medvedeva. She makes them look nice (if you don't look closely at her feet and don't mind the way she forces her upper body into the rotation) but they have been more than 1/4 short many times and even at their best she is right on the borderline.
 
Nobody said her jump was perfectly rotated, but it doesn't need to be. The rule is that a jump needs to be within 1/4 turn and this rule makes sense.

I wish this statement would be in big lights somewhere.

Then watch Ashley's 3F-3T combos, especially as commentated by the British Eurosport guys. During the performances, they almost always rave about the jumps' good speed & flow out, and that the jumps looked clean. Then, on slo-mo replay, they sometimes have second thoughts.

IMHO, any tech replays should be done at actual speed. If an UR can't be seen without several close-up slo-mo reviews, the jump should be counted as clean.

:clap:
 
Did you even look at the example above?

You've seen smooth underrotated jumps, you just didn't sense them as being underrotated because they were smooth. Particularly if it's underrotated as a result of cheating the takeoff, such as with the toelooops of Evgenia Medvedeva. She makes them look nice (if you don't look closely at her feet and don't mind the way she forces her upper body into the rotation) but they have been more than 1/4 short many times and even at their best she is right on the borderline.

What??
All that about tech specialists being ultimate callers, how Karen's 3T could not be UR despite the hooked landing because they know best and they would have called it, and I agreed with you, until this. Evgenia's 3T has never been called UR, even in her 1st junior season when her jumps were weaker. It is practically her strongest jump. She muscles it but is not UR. This is nonsense.
 
Then watch Ashley's 3F-3T combos, especially as commentated by the British Eurosport guys. During the performances, they almost always rave about the jumps' good speed & flow out, and that the jumps looked clean. Then, on slo-mo replay, they sometimes have second thoughts.

IMHO, any tech replays should be done at actual speed. If an UR can't be seen without several close-up slo-mo reviews, the jump should be counted as clean.

Well, I don't know which eyes the commentators are using, but usually her URs are pretty easy to see without slow-mo. Just look for them.
 
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