2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating | Page 65 | Golden Skate

2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

It was a bad decision for Mirai to keep the program, not just because of Evgenia, but because it doesn't suit her to begin with. She has never shown an ability to emote really well to this kind of music and in any case the choreography of the program is totally ineffective, the jumps and spins and footwork really do nothing to work with the music and there are no special details. The program will sadly not create a magical "Olympic moment" for her and especially now in comparison to Evgenia, the lesser skating skills and fluidity of Mirai are just going to make her look more sluggish in this program.

Mirai has Olympic podium potential with her 3Axel this season, but she can say goodbye to it if the PCS do not come through. This isn't just bad for her personally but also for the U.S. team as a whole; Evgenia is likely going to skate SP of the team event and Mirai with a working 3Axel would be the best choice to send to the Olympic Team SP, yet at the same time it will now be easy for the judges to mark her down on PCS with the direct comparison. If USFSA is serious about trying to win Gold in the Team event, and if Mirai herself wants to get competitive scores, then the program needs to be changed.

Probably just me but I disagree completely. Mirai has much more enjoyable choreography and I feel Mirai has far surperior fluidity. Evgenia is great but if Mirai skates that program clean(no unders+3a) who knows? Maybe she could beat her.
 
Probably just me but I disagree completely. Mirai has much more enjoyable choreography and I feel Mirai has far surperior fluidity.

I personally can't fathom how you would come to this conclusion (just compare the footwork for starters), but the judges will definitely not score it that way.

@mirai_nagasu has been quite clear on her feelings about such comments

Everyone has feelings, it doesn't mean they come from a place of great understanding, regardless of how clear those feelings may be. Look at the people who decide to commit mass murders on black churches or gay clubs. Those people have very strong feelings and feel very clear about acting upon them, but it doesn't make their decisions good ones, now does it.

Coaches are supposed to help skaters understand something they previously didn't and create something the skater wouldn't have been able to by themselves, with the ultimate goals of personal growth and career success. It's pretty clear to me that Mirai wants to keep the SP because of scoring a personal best in the SP last season. That score had very little to do with her program and everything to do with her improved 3-3 combo and the inflated scoring of the field in general these days. Her coach is scared to move away from something that happened to bring superficial success and does not have good comprehension about the artistry of skating programs, so he tells Mirai to keep the program, mistakenly thinking it is some kind of golden goose.
 
... Everyone has feelings, it doesn't mean they come from a place of great understanding, regardless of how clear those feelings may be. ...

Right back at you ;).

The point to me is that a skater and the skater's team are entitled to decide what they want to do.
[ETA: And to decide for themselves what constitutes "personal growth" and "career success."]

Just because you happen to think a different choice would be better does not mean that they "need" to agree with your choice.
 
@Blade of Passion

You realize that Tom Z is encouraged her to keep the program, right? Even after Zhenia announced her programs, he's gun ho for her SP.

Why is it some fans think their opinion is the only one that matters. I don't agree with all decisions skaters make, but it's their life. Furthermore it's insulting to imply that Mirai didn't have the full support of Coach, team, and USFSA. If they had a problem, it would've been changed.

I for one think her program is sublime and needs no unnecessary facial expressions. This a lot of drama over nothing.
 
@Blade of Passion

You realize that Tom Z is encouraged her to keep the program, right? Even after Zhenia announced her programs, he's gun ho for her SP.

Well yes, did you read my post or not? Tom Z is part of the problem and this is hardly the first time. He's actually shown himself to be a problem with literally every skater he's ever had when it comes to these things.

Just because you happen to think a different choice would be better does not mean that they "need" to agree with your choice.

Of course, but a wise person would listen to and consider differing viewpoints. That is the basis of forming a worthwhile opinion - having a solid amount of knowledge about a particular subject and then taking the time to compare and contrast variable outcomes.
 
Well yes, did you read my post or not? Tom Z is part of the problem and this is hardly the first time. He's actually shown himself to be a problem with literally every skater he's ever had when it comes to these things.



Of course, but a wise person would listen to and consider differing viewpoints. That is the basis of forming a worthwhile opinion - having a solid amount of knowledge about a particular subject and then taking the time to compare and contrast variable outcomes.


:rolleye: Once again that's your armchair assessment. I'll leave the real assessment to the actual figure skating judges.
 
... Of course, but a wise person would listen to and consider differing viewpoints.

You seem to be assuming that Mirai did not consider other viewpoints before making her decision and before choosing to stick with her decision (after the news of Medvedeva).

Mirai obviously is aware of disagreements with her decision for the coming season. And most likely (IMO) was aware last season of those who were not in favor of her choices.

She apparently believes in what she is doing, and I respect her for it.
 
:rolleye: Once again that's your armchair assessment. I'll leave the real assessment to the actual figure skating judges.

It's not an armchair assessment, but again you don't seem to be considering what has been written. Throwing around random lines like "the program needs no unnecessary facial expressions" is so far off from what is being discussed.

The reaction from the "actual" figure skating judges is going to be highly predictable, and Tom Z's skaters have always had PCS problems with the "actual" judges, so nobody should be surprised this time around either when it happens. Maybe you are satisfied with someone being held down below their potential, but I am not, and discussing it isn't the wrong thing to do. What's wrong is when there is not enough of a discussion in the first place and avoidable mistakes are made.

You seem to be assuming that Mirai did not consider other viewpoints before making her decision

What other viewpoints? Who has sat down with Mirai and gone over the entire program with her and expressed in detail why they feel the choreography and interpretation itself is lacking? Skaters don't receive that enough, instead it's mainly a culture of existing within a bubble and sticking with what has been given to you, and especially with her coach there won't have been much thought given to this. He's going to drill her on jumps, not provide insight or creativity about how to make a truly special program. In Mirai's own words when asked "why keep this program a 2nd season", there was no awareness or direction coming from her that showed a love of a program or why it would actually be effective or could be improved (beyond the technical aspects).
 
It's not an armchair assessment, but again you don't seem to be considering what has been written. Throwing around random lines like "the program needs no unnecessary facial expressions" is so far off from what is being discussed.

The reaction from the "actual" figure skating judges is going to be highly predictable, and Tom Z's skaters have always had PCS problems with the "actual" judges, so nobody should be surprised this time around either when it happens. Maybe you are satisfied with someone being held down below their potential, but I am not, and discussing it isn't the wrong thing to do. What's wrong is when there is not enough of a discussion in the first place and avoidable mistakes are made.



What other viewpoints? Who has sat down with Mirai and gone over the entire program with her and expressed in detail why they feel the choreography and interpretation itself is lacking? Skaters don't receive that enough, instead it's mainly a culture of existing within a bubble and sticking with what has been given to you, and especially with her coach there won't have been much thought given to this. He's going to drill her on jumps, not provide insight or creativity about how to make a truly special program. In Mirai's own words when asked "why keep this program a 2nd season", there was no awareness or direction coming from her that showed a love of a program or why it would actually be effective or could be improved (beyond the technical aspects).

You're the one that brought up emoting to Chopin. We're not listening because we don't have to. The problem is you just don't realize that your opinion is just your opinion. She doesn't have to take it and none of us have to agree with it. Your just an anonymous poster on a figure skating forum. Nothing about that description makes your opinion any more valid than the next.

In conclusion, in my opinion Mirai's SP is the best she's ever had. It's perfectly choreographed to the music and her still expression suits the feel of the music. It uses her ballet and classic figure skating moves perfectly. Jeff did an outstanding job playing to Mirai's strengths. Honestly she excells with it. There are moments where I get lost in the moment when she skates. I'm glad that she kept it.

And that is my opinion.
 
I love the presumption that all of Tom Z's skaters over time have failed at PCS.

I have at least 3 names for you that proves that wrong:

Jeremy Abbott
Ryan Bradley
Joshua Farris


Just saying....:slink:
 
Welp... I for one love Chopin on Mirai. I actually think it's full of movement and shapes that are particularly suited to Mirai's ballet background. her choreo wouldn't look as good as Ashley, Gracie, Evgenia... IMO. It's refined and reserved but the has a silent passion oozing from it. It's like her On Golden Pond program but dressed up for the Opera hahah.

Evgenia has taken a very different route and to me it's almost comparing apples to oranges. I prefer Mirai's but that's my taste. I don't like the programs Evgenia has been given, but I also can't deny the excellence of her skating. There is a universe where I could see a clean Mirai who has riding some good momentum from the fall into the Olympics overtake Evgenia with these two programs if she has the triple axel.

I'm impressed with the strides Polina has taken since we last saw her. Full disclosure I'll admit that Polina is pretty low on my list of skaters I'd like to see make the Olympics so my observations are probably colored by that, but this program doesn't do it for me. I have trouble staying engaged with this routine and I don't feel like I've seen much growth in performance quality since 2014. The choreo and music this year really puts me to sleep and the it's lacking in transitions. I also know she didn't exactly plan for this(these were the programs she wanted to use last season right?) but skating to a song that repeatedly says "Time To Say Goodbye" for your comeback season is a little... it's not the message I would want to send to the judges...

Still, she's a fierce competitor and will probably show up swinging in January so I definitely won't count her out. I'm just not sure if we see strong skating from Mirai, Ashley, Karen, and Mariah if this can overtake them...
 
What other viewpoints? Who has sat down with Mirai and gone over the entire program with her and expressed in detail why they feel the choreography and interpretation itself is lacking? Skaters don't receive that enough, instead it's mainly a culture of existing within a bubble and sticking with what has been given to you, and especially with her coach there won't have been much thought given to this. He's going to drill her on jumps, not provide insight or creativity about how to make a truly special program. In Mirai's own words when asked "why keep this program a 2nd season", there was no awareness or direction coming from her that showed a love of a program or why it would actually be effective or could be improved (beyond the technical aspects).

Interesting assessment. I am really puzzled at how much a skater is given the choice of his/her programs. It was kind of shocking that I learned from the forum that Mirai didn't like Miss Saigon but because the other music was chosen by Max (I might be wrong though), and she is left with Miss Saigon. If it is true, it is just wrong on so many levels. How can her coach and/or choreographer only prepare two choices for a male, a female skaters with two very different styles, not to mention asking their choices? Is this quite common for US skaters?

I remember posts mentioning Eteri would personally match the image of the music to the image of the skater, and also ask what her skaters would love to skate to, though she still has the final control.
 
You're the one that brought up emoting to Chopin.

Emoting doesn't mean "unnecessary facial expression".

If you don't want to listen to anything, then I'm not sure why you go to a forum in the first place. I'm not an anonymous poster either and I never said you have to agree with me, that is just you negatively projecting onto me. I'm trying to discuss specifics and provide reasoning; I would expect people to engage in this reasoning. I await any reasoning you might have to share as well. For example, you finally brought up something we can discuss:

In my opinion Mirai's SP is the best she's ever had. It's perfectly choreographed to the music and her still expression suits the feel of the music. It uses her ballet and classic figure skating moves perfectly.

Can you please point out where in the program this is displayed - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA_aWlBj8Ws

Nothing in the program shows great extension or balletic positions from what I see, nor great musicality. The program opens with a deep, fluttering violin and her movement is a limp looking hand position and a slow turn on the ice. As the music builds she does nothing relevant with her body or expression to represent it, instead just doing some very slight arm movements and a single random turn. After the first jump combo the music again echoes this and there's no sense of shape in her movement to the music or purpose in her carriage, she again just does a random turn on the ice and then goes into a spin. After the spin ends it's the exact same thing again - the music is intense and her movement does virtually nothing. Then she does another spin, where the last position is held out longer then it should be for what the music is doing (because she's doing that to get a spin level of course). After that second spin the music is rapidly progressing onward until a pause, and the movement we get from her is toe-stop in the middle of it and some generic skating in a semi circle.

As the music builds again and has a mournful tone, she has no expression at all while she skates around the corner, and eventually doing a quite happy looking ina bauer with her arms opening over her head before going into a jump. After the jump we get the quick violin coming back into the melody but look at what she is doing - just one small forward swing of the free leg and a slight dip of the upper body. Then comes another jump, without much impact at all. So now after that we are into the footwork sequence, where there's a real lack of ability to reflect the gravitas of the music in her movement. At one point she does a forward lunge and it looks far more like than exaltation than any kind of representation of remorse. There's a very short forward spiral stretch in here and sideways leg lift into an attempting crouching kind of position and it truly looks clunky and far removed from what should be happening. Finally we end with a wholly unsurprising layback spin, where she does a weak illusion turn into sideways position, then haircutter, than beillmann. No usage of the arms or hands anywhere here to add extra texture or meaning, and immediately going into a vanilla final ending pose.

So, where is it? These great balletic positions and skating moves you spoke of? Where is the burning need in the performance from Mirai to express the starkly sorrowful aspect of the music? It's not there and she has never shown the desire or ability to express such a thing in a performance. "Ingmar Bergman on Ice" is never where she's been at. When you look at the clarity of Medvedeva's movements in comparison and her ability to have a serious and solemn expression, this program from Mirai is logically going to look worse and make it easier for the judges to score her down on PCS. Particularly if Russia feels threatened by the 3Axel potential from Mirai. "All she has is the 3Axel, her other movements don't compare to Medvedeva". That will be the politicking and it will stick.

If that is your claim, it exemplifies the pointlessness of trying to have a conversation with you.

I am trying to have a conversation, while you are only trying to shut down conversation, and at the same time trying to downgrade someone's well informed and considered opinion as "armchair". You have yet to give any real counterpoints or analysis, acting like it's an atrocity to question a skater and to think about what would provide the best competition results.

I love the presumption that all of Tom Z's skaters over time have failed at PCS.

I have at least 3 names for you that proves that wrong:

Jeremy Abbott
Ryan Bradley
Joshua Farris

When did Ryan Bradley get good or even decent PCS internationally? Never.

Those other two skaters left Tom Z, precisely because of his misjudgements. They were naturally talented artistically, nothing to do with him.
 
Emoting doesn't mean "unnecessary facial expression".

If you don't want to listen to anything, then I'm not sure why you go to a forum in the first place. I'm not an anonymous poster either and I never said you have to agree with me, that is just you negatively projecting onto me. I'm trying to discuss specifics and provide reasoning; I would expect people to engage in this reasoning. I await any reasoning you might have to share as well. For example, you finally brought up something we can discuss:



Can you please point out where in the program this is displayed - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA_aWlBj8Ws

Nothing in the program shows great extension or balletic positions from what I see, nor great musicality. The program opens with a deep, fluttering violin and her movement is a limp looking hand position and a slow turn on the ice. As the music builds she does nothing relevant with her body or expression to represent it, instead just doing some very slight arm movements and a single random turn. After the first jump combo the music again echoes this and there's no sense of shape in her movement to the music or purpose in her carriage, she again just does a random turn on the ice and then goes into a spin. After the spin ends it's the exact same thing again - the music is intense and her movement does virtually nothing. Then she does another spin, where the last position is held out longer then it should be for what the music is doing (because she's doing that to get a spin level of course). After that second spin the music is rapidly progressing onward until a pause, and the movement we get from her is toe-stop in the middle of it and some generic skating in a semi circle.

As the music builds again and has a mournful tone, she has no expression at all while she skates around the corner, and eventually doing a quite happy looking ina bauer with her arms opening over her head before going into a jump. After the jump we get the quick violin coming back into the melody but look at what she is doing - just one small forward swing of the free leg and a slight dip of the upper body. Then comes another jump, without much impact at all. So now after that we are into the footwork sequence, where there's a real lack of ability to reflect the gravitas of the music in her movement. At one point she does a forward lunge and it looks far more like than exaltation than any kind of representation of remorse. There's a very short forward spiral stretch in here and sideways leg lift into an attempting crouching kind of position and it truly looks clunky and far removed from what should be happening. Finally we end with a wholly unsurprising layback spin, where she does a weak illusion turn into sideways position, then haircutter, than beillmann. No usage of the arms or hands anywhere here to add extra texture or meaning, and immediately going into a vanilla final ending pose.

So, where is it? These great balletic positions and skating moves you spoke of? Where is the burning need in the performance from Mirai to express the starkly sorrowful aspect of the music? It's not there and she has never shown the desire or ability to express such a thing in a performance. "Ingmar Bergman on Ice" is never where she's been at. When you look at the clarity of Medvedeva's movements in comparison and her ability to have a serious and solemn expression, this program from Mirai is logically going to look worse and make it easier for the judges to score her down on PCS. Particularly if Russia feels threatened by the 3Axel potential from Mirai. "All she has is the 3Axel, her other movements don't compare to Medvedeva". That will be the politicking and it will stick.



I am trying to have a conversation, while you are only trying to shut down conversation, and at the same time trying to downgrade someone's well informed and considered opinion as "armchair". You have yet to give any real counterpoints or analysis, acting like it's an atrocity to question a skater and to think about what would provide the best competition results.



When did Ryan Bradley get good or even decent PCS internationally? Never.

Those other two skaters left Tom Z, precisely because of his misjudgements. They were naturally talented artistically, nothing to do with him.

Skate Canada 2008 among others. :slink:
 
Would you all mind not quoting Blade of Passion post? I have the poster on ignore and don't want to see any post addressed to me. @Ic3rabbit would you mind?
 
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