2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[Gullygirl84]

That is hilarious.

I don't get what's so funny about it. She and Tom had talked about 2 potential pieces, one being Firebird, and when she came back to show him the choreography, he was surprised to see that Jeff/Mirai had decided on a Miss Saigon program instead (personally, I was always a little weary of Tom insisting that Mirai change from the idea of the Avatar program, but was fine with Winner Takes it all ). Also, I don't really understand what is so controversial about Mirai saying that she is "hands off" in terms of what music cuts are used. Do people really think skaters have that big of an influence on the specific music cuts normally? FFS, didn't Shae's Moulin Rouge idea come about after Ashley originally told her she wanted to skate to Carmen?

I like Mirai's program, I think that she hit the notes in terms of choreography better at Autumn Classic than she did at times the rest of the season, but hopefully that gives her room to grow this season. The Chopin/Miss Saigon pairing are some of her better programs that she has had in her career. It's bad luck that Evgenia has the same sp song, but Evgenia is pretty much untouchable by everyone at **this point, so it's not like they are competing for the top spot.

 

[MarinHondas]

I saw on the JGP Italy list that Ashley Lin is listed as the US ladies entry. That leaves Minsk for Tessa (assigned) and Poland for Starr Andrews at this moment. Is Emmy Ma not getting a second JGP even after her success this past weekend?

I know without a 3-3 she is unlikely to be competitive with the other ladies at the JGPF, but at the moment she is the one that has the best shot at that with her bronze in Latvia. We don't know how Tessa will do, but Starr got fifth and Ashley got sixth at their first JGPs (although Ashley had a slightly higher score than Starr and only got sixth because of the depth of the field in Riga). I think Emmy and Starr should be swapped out and Starr should be given a senior B if possible to get more experience.

Emmy has a small chance of making the jgpf. It is very small and she would probably have to win another gp but it's a chance. The other girls assigned to second gp's have a 0% chance of making it to the jgpf. So I don't understand why Emmy would not be given that chance? If she makes it that would be a huge accomplishment no matter how she places. I mean how many years has it been since a US skater made the jgpf???

 

[skylark]

... yes I have an extensive basis of understanding about the things being talked about and I don't care what someone's superficial credentials are, I care about reasoning and thought. I don't find it worthwhile to blindly think any skater or their coach has an infallible opinion. I do find it worthwhile to analyze Mirai's program and how it can be expected to score when set alongside Medvedeva's program.

Even though I didn't enter into the discussion, I get what you're saying about Mirai's music and I see your points, which are meaningful and interesting to me. I also agree with some of the others' points about the music working for Mirai, on some levels. I think the judges and spectators will respond individually, as is always the case. But I also think that the things you expressed in such depth and detail will impact some, if not many, spectators and judges on an intuitive, unconscious level, even if some people here don't want to hear the details. I love the details.

I am a concert pianist by profession and play that posthumuos Chopin "Nocturne" (Chopin himself never gave it the official name of Nocturne, but it clearly is). I am a big fan of Nagasu. But that program has a huge disconnect to the music. When I watch it it's almost as if she is actually skating to something else and they plastered on the Chopin music afterwards. That deeply, deeply tragic music, made of few notes...it's a huge challenge to fill that.

This is very interesting and enlightening to me. Thank you for telling your experience with the Nocturne. The disconnect between the program and the music that you mentioned does, I believe, impact viewers on some level. Ironically, I often feel a big disconnect between Mirai and her music, and yet I think this program almost works for her. Maybe I'm looking at it on a shallow, superficial level. Still ... I haven't been completely convinced by her performance of it yet.

 

[skylark]

(personally, I was always a little weary of Tom insisting that Mirai change from the idea of the Avatar program, but was fine with Winner Takes it all ).

:agree:

FFS, didn't Shae's Moulin Rouge idea come about after Ashley originally told her she wanted to skate to Carmen?

Is that right? I'd love to hear more about this. And for anyone who might be weary of the subject and say it's already been talked to death, I guess that was before I was a regular lurker. If anyone wants to refer me to an archived thread or something, feel free.

 

[mrrice]

Emmy has a small chance of making the jgpf. It is very small and she would probably have to win another gp but it's a chance. The other girls assigned to second gp's have a 0% chance of making it to the jgpf. So I don't understand why Emmy would not be given that chance? If she makes it that would be a huge accomplishment no matter how she places. I mean how many years has it been since a US skater made the jgpf???

I know Angela Wang made the JGPF back in 2013/14. I'd be surprised if she's the last one to do so. Didn't Vivian Le ever make the final?

 

[ssffww]

I don't get what's so funny about it. She and Tom had talked about 2 potential pieces, one being Firebird, and when she came back to show him the choreography, he was surprised to see that Jeff/Mirai had decided on a Miss Saigon program instead (personally, I was always a little weary of Tom insisting that Mirai change from the idea of the Avatar program, but was fine with Winner Takes it all ). Also, I don't really understand what is so controversial about Mirai saying that she is "hands off" in terms of what music cuts are used. Do people really think skaters have that big of an influence on the specific music cuts normally? FFS, didn't Shae's Moulin Rouge idea come about after Ashley originally told her she wanted to skate to Carmen?

I like Mirai's program, I think that she hit the notes in terms of choreography better at Autumn Classic than she did at times the rest of the season, but hopefully that gives her room to grow this season. The Chopin/Miss Saigon pairing are some of her better programs that she has had in her career. It's bad luck that Evgenia has the same sp song, but Evgenia is pretty much untouchable by everyone at **this point, so it's not like they are competing for the top spot.

I didn't realize that about Moulin Rouge. Ashley chose Hip Hip, Chin Chin and La, La Land (although now she may go back to Moulin Rouge). Jason Brown also has a lot of input on his music. So, I suppose it varies from skater to skater. I like Mirai's programs this year.

 

[frida80]

I know Angela Wang made the JGPF back in 2013/14. I'd be surprised if she's the last one to do so. Didn't Vivian Le ever make the final?

No. She got two bronze medals.

 

[SnowWhite]

I didn't realize that about Moulin Rouge. Ashley chose Hip Hip, Chin Chin and La, La Land (although now she may go back to Moulin Rouge). Jason Brown also has a lot of input on his music. So, I suppose it varies from skater to skater. I like Mirai's programs this year.

And I think it can even vary year to year. Different discipline, but I know with Tessa and Scott, there are some programs where the music was their idea (Funny Face, Prince, Moulin Rouge) and others where it was the suggestion of the coach or choreographer (The Seasons, Latch). I'm sure lots of skaters are like that as well. Sometimes they have an idea that works out and sometimes the coach or choreographer has an idea that they end up liking.

 

[andromache]

I know Angela Wang made the JGPF back in 2013/14. I'd be surprised if she's the last one to do so. Didn't Vivian Le ever make the final?

Angela qualified in in 2012/2013, along with Hannah Miller and Leah Keiser. None of whom, unfortunately, have managed to transform that junior achievement into something at the senior level.

In 2013/2014, Karen Chen and Polina Edmunds qualified, but Karen withdrew, and Angela was called up as an alternate. That was the last JGPF in which any US ladies qualified.

(Emmy has a .01% chance of qualifying. That said, I think she has earned a second JGP by merit of her medal at her first, and USFS should reward her.)

Re: Mirai

Her problems with jump rotations over the past several years have severely muted her as a performer. Her extroverted style in 2010 is nothing like how she performs and interprets music now, which is far more introverted. That introversion is fine, but her choreography is also simpler and less effective than some other top ladies, likely because of the time and energy she spends on jumps (also assuming that's why her spins have gotten worse).

The idea that Evgenia stepped on Mirai's toes by selecting Nocturne is, quite frankly, absurd to me. An idea of "dibs" is probably smart to consider within your own country, and/or within the group of your international peers/skaters of your own level. Mirai isn't a world medalist, former medal threat at Worlds (within the past four years), GPF qualifier, or alternate GPF qualifier. I don't think anybody would be clutching their pearls if Ashley Wagner or Karen Chen picked the same music as Rika Hongo or Alena Leonova.

 

[corynna]

Emmy has a small chance of making the jgpf. It is very small and she would probably have to win another gp but it's a chance. The other girls assigned to second gp's have a 0% chance of making it to the jgpf. So I don't understand why Emmy would not be given that chance? If she makes it that would be a huge accomplishment no matter how she places. I mean how many years has it been since a US skater made the jgpf???

Yes, I don't get this either. Emmy is the only US Junior Lady that managed to get a medal in the JGP. She has better ranking and better score then Starr, Kaitlyn and Ashley. Even if she doesn't make the final, she definitely earned her second JGP. Don't understand the decision of not assigning her, at least to Italy.

 

[Chemistry66]

I saw on the JGP Italy list that Ashley Lin is listed as the US ladies entry. That leaves Minsk for Tessa (assigned) and Poland for Starr Andrews at this moment. Is Emmy Ma not getting a second JGP even after her success this past weekend?

I know without a 3-3 she is unlikely to be competitive with the other ladies at the JGPF, but at the moment she is the one that has the best shot at that with her bronze in Latvia. We don't know how Tessa will do, but Starr got fifth and Ashley got sixth at their first JGPs (although Ashley had a slightly higher score than Starr and only got sixth because of the depth of the field in Riga). I think Emmy and Starr should be swapped out and Starr should be given a senior B if possible to get more experience.

Those are just placeholders. They had to submit names weeks before they knew the results of the competition. I expect that they will change the skaters pretty soon.

That said, I think Ashley and Emmy had an advantage over Starr and Kaitlyn at their JGP. Both Ashley and Emmy had already competed with their junior FS before going to their JGP, so it makes sense that their programs are stronger. Kaitlyn and Starr have competed with their senior FS only. Both Starr and Kaitlyn second JGP would be more polished than their first.

If USFS is serious about Sending strong competitors to JW, they will send Starr, Kaitlyn, Emmy, and Ashley and other strong junior level competitors to a strong junior B competition so they can get more experience with their junior programs with a competitive field. Tallinn Trophy normally has a few strong Russian Juniors. Senior Bs are good for points, but it doesn't help skaters perform their FS better.

Emmy has a small chance of making the jgpf. It is very small and she would probably have to win another gp but it's a chance. The other girls assigned to second gp's have a 0% chance of making it to the jgpf. So I don't understand why Emmy would not be given that chance? If she makes it that would be a huge accomplishment no matter how she places. I mean how many years has it been since a US skater made the jgpf???

Yes, I don't get this either. Emmy is the only US Junior Lady that managed to get a medal in the JGP. She has better ranking and better score then Starr, Kaitlyn and Ashley. Even if she doesn't make the final, she definitely earned her second JGP. Don't understand the decision of not assigning her, at least to Italy.

Based on the Announcement for the Egna (Italy) JGP, entries were due at 20:00 Egna time (AKA 8:00 PM) on September 8th. Emmy literally was not scheduled to finish skating her FS until what converts to 19:49:50 (since Riga is 1 hour ahead of Egna). That 10 minute gap wouldn't really be enough time for USFS to switch out names, even assuming everything finished on time and wasn't delayed at all.

There's still plenty of time for USFS to switch around assignments. Emmy will probably get a second one. Medallists usually seem to, assuming their first event wasn't the last JGP for the season.

 

[Gullygirl84]

:agree:



Is that right? I'd love to hear more about this. And for anyone who might be weary of the subject and say it's already been talked to death, I guess that was before I was a regular lurker. If anyone wants to refer me to an archived thread or something, feel free.

Shae Lynn mentions it in part one of her interview with the Skating Lesson, linked below.
http://the-skating-lesson.com/the-s...-interview-with-shae-lynn-bourne-choreography

I remember thinking it was really interesting when I first heard that! Shae Lynn said that she thought it was “worth the fight” to do something with a similar feel to Carmen, but using different music. I only used it as an example of why skaters often trust that choreographers will use their expertise in helping select music that will best bring out the skater’s strength. In terms of expression, Ashley is obviously more of the storyteller/thrives off of the character driven pieces, which is why her interpretation marks are high. But I also think that Ashley and Mirai are just different skaters with their own unique strengths. I think the Chopin piece actually works for Mirai’s introverted style, as long as she can hit the music notes, which she should continue to work on. She actually did an interview on a classical music radio station and talked about the piece a bit before nationals last year, so I don't think that it's meaningless to her. I always hope she can bring out the expressiveness that she shows in her show programs to her competitive programs, but I agree that thinking about the rotations tenses her up in the face. She filmed herself on Instagram live a few weeks ago listening to the Miss Saigon soundtrack (song that wasn’t’ in her program cut, unless Champs Camp feedback asked her to change it, which I doubt), so maybe she is trying to think about the character more this year.

 

[ruffledgrouse]

Oh hey, look at that- Evgenia and and Mirai are using the same music this year. That's pretty cool, I liked last year's Battle of the Liebestaume's with H/B and P/I. Let's see what my fellow figure skating fans have to say :yes:

I personally can't fathom how you would come to this conclusion (just compare the footwork for starters), but the judges will definitely not score it that way.

Everyone has feelings, it doesn't mean they come from a place of great understanding, regardless of how clear those feelings may be. Look at the people who decide to commit mass murders on black churches or gay clubs. Those people have very strong feelings and feel very clear about acting upon them, but it doesn't make their decisions good ones, now does it.

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/34/95/a1/3495a14c4028253676b8956f1cb7025c.jpg

 

[StitchMonkey]

Emmy has a small chance of making the jgpf. It is very small and she would probably have to win another gp but it's a chance. The other girls assigned to second gp's have a 0% chance of making it to the jgpf. So I don't understand why Emmy would not be given that chance? If she makes it that would be a huge accomplishment no matter how she places. I mean how many years has it been since a US skater made the jgpf???

one argument i have seen that I think has some merit to it is that we need to give the girls likely to go to junior worlds chances to compete with the junior version of their program. Starr and Nguyen (i think) are competing domestically as seniors. So they are not getting much mileage out of their junior programs. This is kinda a flaw of the USA's system of sending domestic seniors to junior worlds... but ohh well.

Do we know if Emmy is a domestic junior or senior?

At this point I think Emmy should get a second JGP but Starr and Nguyen should get a second junior assignment even if it is not a JGP assignment.

 

[frida80]

one argument i have seen that I think has some merit to it is that we need to give the girls likely to go to junior worlds chances to compete with the junior version of their program. Starr and Nguyen (i think) are competing domestically as seniors. So they are not getting much mileage out of their junior programs. This is kinda a flaw of the USA's system of sending domestic seniors to junior worlds... but ohh well.

Do we know if Emmy is a domestic junior or senior?

At this point I think Emmy should get a second JGP but Starr and Nguyen should get a second junior assignment even if it is not a JGP assignment.

I think Emmy is a senior domestically. I agree with you. The juniors that could be at JW need more mileage out of their programs. Give them a second competition.

 

[Chemistry66]

one argument i have seen that I think has some merit to it is that we need to give the girls likely to go to junior worlds chances to compete with the junior version of their program. Starr and Nguyen (i think) are competing domestically as seniors. So they are not getting much mileage out of their junior programs. This is kinda a flaw of the USA's system of sending domestic seniors to junior worlds... but ohh well.

Do we know if Emmy is a domestic junior or senior?

At this point I think Emmy should get a second JGP but Starr and Nguyen should get a second junior assignment even if it is not a JGP assignment.

"Now, heading into the 2017-18 season, Emmy will compete in Seniors nationally"

https://adivinesport.com/2017/06/21/interview-with-emmy-ma-june-2017/

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

Once again that's your armchair assessment. I'll leave the real assessment to the actual figure skating judges.

And speaking of the judges, internationally she scored very well with that SP when she hit. Per Tom Z, he got a lot of great feedback about it which was reason enough to keep it this year.

 

[skylark]

Shae Lynn mentions it in part one of her interview with the Skating Lesson, linked below.
http://the-skating-lesson.com/the-s...-interview-with-shae-lynn-bourne-choreography

thank you for the link! That was a great interview. It was interesting hearing her talk about how much she stresses making the emotional connection, since ice dance (in particular) is so limited now by rules, that it can become robotic unless skaters keep their focus on a larger purpose, so to speak. Which I think can happen in all the disciplines: the focus on points can overwhelm a program unless someone (often a choreographer) is constantly pushing the skater to think about performance factors.

 

[ice coverage]

I didn't realize that about Moulin Rouge. Ashley chose Hip Hip, Chin Chin and La, La Land (although now she may go back to Moulin Rouge). Jason Brown also has a lot of input on his music. So, I suppose it varies from skater to skater. I like Mirai's programs this year.

And I think it can even vary year to year. Different discipline, but I know with Tessa and Scott, there are some programs where the music was their idea (Funny Face, Prince, Moulin Rouge) and others where it was the suggestion of the coach or choreographer (The Seasons, Latch). I'm sure lots of skaters are like that as well. Sometimes they have an idea that works out and sometimes the coach or choreographer has an idea that they end up liking.

Echoing SnowWhite's point that it can vary from year to year for a particular skater:

Jason Brown has said (I'm paraphrasing) that Riverdance was not his idea at all and that he would not have thought of it for himself.
An instance in which he was "hands off" in the selection and willing to go with his choreographer's choice.
Worked out very well for Jason.

OTOH, Jason actively lobbied for Hamilton over a period of years.​

 

[Gullygirl84]

Yes, and Mirai has talked about how she had asked Catarina Lindgren to choreograph a short program to Demons for the 15-16 season (since she really connected to the music when she skated to it as an exhibition choreographed by Adam). Like others, I'm sure her music choices have been a mix of what she has specifically requested, saying "yes" or "no" to something to get closer to the feel of what she's looking for in the season, and yes, trying something at the choreographer's suggestion that she initially hadn't thought was right for her until she skated to sections of it as the choreography was developed.

Additionally, the "hands off" was when Ted Flett asked Mirai how they chose what specific songs to use from Miss Saigon (after they chose the theme/program), since there are so many songs to choose from, and Mirai made the hands off gesture, and agreed that she left that part to Jeff-however, when talking about the program, she said that she felt "Sun and Moon is me" after hearing it, which does appear in the program cut.