2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[el henry]

I'm afraid that Mariah skating to LaLa Land would make no difference whatsoever if someone, somewhere isn't paying more attention to her choreo. I agree her style is more "light opera" than "Wagnerian", but the music is not the only thing about that long program that needs fixing. I still find it impossible to believe that Cindy Stuart, who did that playful "Little Talks" SP a few years ago for Mariah, is responsible for ...that.:disapp:

And if Raf can suggest different music for Ashley, why didn't he do so for Mariah? I can't imagine any coach watching that and saying, that's the program you want for your Olympic year.

Oh well, I hope they figure it out.....

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I'm afraid that Mariah skating to LaLa Land would make no difference whatsoever if someone, somewhere isn't paying more attention to her choreo. I agree her style is more "light opera" than "Wagnerian", but the music is not the only thing about that long program that needs fixing. I still find it impossible that Cindy Stuart, who did that playful "Little Talks" SP a few years ago is responsible for ...that.:disapp:

And if Raf can suggest different music for Ashley, why didn't he do so for Mariah? I can't imagine any coach watching that and saying, that's the program you want for your Olympic year.

Oh well, I hope they figure it out.....

Cindy Stuart could possibly be responsible for "that" indeed since she did a really bad job of choreographing for Mirai a few seasons back (she did the horrible Man I Love SP and LP to James Bond music). Thankfully Mirai ran away and never looked back after that season.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

I'm afraid that Mariah skating to LaLa Land would make no difference whatsoever if someone, somewhere isn't paying more attention to her choreo. I agree her style is more "light opera" than "Wagnerian", but the music is not the only thing about that long program that needs fixing. I still find it impossible to believe that Cindy Stuart, who did that playful "Little Talks" SP a few years ago for Mariah, is responsible for ...that.:disapp:

And if Raf can suggest different music for Ashley, why didn't he do so for Mariah? I can't imagine any coach watching that and saying, that's the program you want for your Olympic year.

Oh well, I hope they figure it out.....

Mariah isn't Raf's priority, it's fairly obvious. She needs a new program immediately but I don't think that'll happen.
Mariah scares me to death when she skates. I'm expecting mistakes now. She has so many wonderful qualities but ......idk......

 

[skylark]

The Zaccardi article beat me to it, but bringing on a new choreographer or an additional choreographer is usually a very good thing and something that is done often in the skating world but without the fans realizing. Also, can I just say the skating world has Abbott to thank for bringing Schwimmer into it as far back as 2012, as he's done wonders since.



I have to mostly disagree with the statement I bolded. Having the choreographer at the skaters home rink isn't always the most beneficial and many a skating choreographer is brought in from afar or travel to many rinks all over to do choreography or add touches to existing choreography those who do only on-ice choreo as well as those from the dance world such as Schwimmer who is mentioned in my reply to Tavi.

I can see it both ways. I like the idea of a skater fulfilling the original vision of the choreographer, and working day by day, little by little, to refine and realize the program. According to what Phillip Mills said in regard to Angela Wang's Over the Rainbow last year, that's what he prefers.

But I also relate to and swear by the idea that fresh eyes can really bring something great out in a skater or a program. Not take meaning away from the original program, but re-vision and re-create it. Obviously, I'm hoping and expecting that Benji's contributions will be harmonious and also give something extra. I'm looking forward to seeing the new ideas.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I can see it both ways. I like the idea of a skater fulfilling the original vision of the choreographer, and working day by day, little by little, to refine and realize the program. According to what Phillip Mills said in regard to Angela Wang's Over the Rainbow last year, that's what he prefers.

But I also relate to and swear by the idea that fresh eyes can really bring something great out in a skater or a program. Not take meaning away from the original program, but re-vision and re-create it. Obviously, I'm hoping and expecting that Benji's contributions will be harmonious and also give something extra. I'm looking forward to seeing the new ideas.

We can respectfully disagree, b/c YMMV, but I'm just telling you how it works 90% of the time(including the OTR SP you mentioned).

 

[crazydreamer]

Nick Zaccardi has a new article on Ashley's FS switch.

Ashley Wagner details dropping ‘La La Land’ free skate
http://olympics.nbcsports.com/2017/09/20/ashley-wagner-moulin-rouge-la-la-land-free-skate/

i hope she performs it publicly at least once. Very disappointed she abandoned this plan - the music would have been great for her and could have lots of variety and ups and downs if edited properly. Going back to Moulin rouge seems lazy and like she isn't capable of connecting or successfully performing more than one piece of music. I feel like unless she really steps it up she could get deductions for artistry.

 

[skylark]

And if Raf can suggest different music for Ashley, why didn't he do so for Mariah?

The way I read the Zaccardi article about Ashley, that's not the way it happened. The interchange was quite a lot more nuanced than that. Ashley trained LLL day in and day out, loved many things about it, began to feel misgivings, and finally sought Rafael's opinion. It sounds like she had to push him.

Ashley: Is this program [La La Land] good?

Raf: Yeah, it's a really good program.

Ashley: Is it good enough? Is this going to get me through the Olympics?​

And then he told her to put on the Moulin Rouge music. Let her feel the difference for herself, then said what he thought.

For another slant on the situation, Kori Ade said in her TSL interview that she doesn't intervene in Rohene's choreographic or wardrobe decisions until much later in the season. It seems there's a delicate balance.

 

[skylark]

We can respectfully disagree, b/c YMMV, but I'm just telling you how it works 90% of the time(including the OTR SP you mentioned).

Oh, I'm happy to defer to your knowledge of how it works. I like to think about these things, and I can see both viewpoints.

 

[mrrice]

Mariah isn't Raf's priority, it's fairly obvious. She needs a new program immediately but I don't think that'll happen.
Mariah scares me to death when she skates. I'm expecting mistakes now. She has so many wonderful qualities but ......idk......

This is why I wish she'd rework her Titanic Free Program. It was such a big hit at Nationals and since she didn't go to Worlds or 4CC with it. It will be fresh for the international audience. Titanic was a world wide phenomenon and I think the program would work on the Olympic stage. If Raf doesn't have enough time for her, she can train with Rohene, or one of the coaches in Raf's rink, or possibly with the original choreographer.

 

[el henry]

The way I read the Zaccardi article about Ashley, that's not the way it happened. The interchange was quite a lot more nuanced than that. Ashley trained LLL day in and day out, loved many things about it, began to feel misgivings, and finally sought Rafael's opinion. It sounds like she had to push him.

Ashley: Is this program [La La Land] good?

Raf: Yeah, it's a really good program.

Ashley: Is it good enough? Is this going to get me through the Olympics?​

And then he told her to put on the Moulin Rouge music. Let her feel the difference for herself, then said what he thought.

For another slant on the situation, Kori Ade said in her TSL interview that she doesn't intervene in Rohene's choreographic or wardrobe decisions until much later in the season. It seems there's a delicate balance.

Oh, I agree; I'm not saying that a coach should necessarily "interfere", just that they are another pair of eyes an ears, and hopefully an important one. Of course, Kori and Rohene have a long-standing relationship with a great deal of trust in each other. (Even Kori eventually vetoed the yellow pants in Tristan & Iseult, although it took her a while).

One of the traits I admire about Ashley and Adam is that they know what they want, they can ask their coach for advice, and they can take it or leave it according to what they think. I respect Ashley for asking Raf, and for listening to him (and to her gut).:thumbsup:

 

[skylark]

Oh, I agree; I'm not saying that a coach should necessarily "interfere", just that they are another pair of eyes an ears, and hopefully an important one. Of course, Kori and Rohene have a long-standing relationship with a great deal of trust in each other. (Even Kori eventually vetoed the yellow pants in Tristan & Iseult, although it took her a while).

One of the traits I admire about Ashley and Adam is that they know what they want, they can ask their coach for advice, and they can take it or leave it according to what they think. I respect Ashley for asking Raf, and for listening to him (and to her gut).:thumbsup:

:agree:

And yes, the authentically "medieval" yellow pants were exactly the incident I was thinking of! I also seem to remember Kori mentioning that she'd let Rohene have his way with the very difficult elements that he puts into Jason's programs, until it gets later in the season and she decides that the needs of the competition come first. But my memory is fuzzy on that, and it may not be right. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

ETA: for the record, I said "intervene" not "interfere." And Kori encourages everyone to contribute to the process, but I think she's clear with everyone that she takes the final decisions.

 

[kwanatic]

I honestly don't know how I feel about Ashley returning to Moulin Rouge for a 3rd time.

It was a phenomenal program but, IMO, she's already had her moment with that program...actually she had two moments: nationals in 2015 and Worlds in 2016. I hate that she can't seem to find anything else that speaks to her.

I wonder if they're going to use the same edits or if she's going to switch it up. Most skaters don't use a program more than twice so for it to show up a 3rd time...it almost needs to be unrecognizable.

It's interesting that of the top women only Karen came up with two new programs. Everyone else recycled at least one program.

I guess we'll see how this turns out...

 

[klutzy]

Polina's are new--meant for the previous year, but she never had a chance to perform them. If she can stand up during her jumps, the newness may work to her advantage.

Admittedly, that's a big "if".

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

This is why I wish she'd rework her Titanic Free Program. It was such a big hit at Nationals and since she didn't go to Worlds or 4CC with it. It will be fresh for the international audience. Titanic was a world wide phenomenon and I think the program on the Olympic stage. If Raf doesn't have enough time for her, she can train with Rohene, or one of the coaches in Raf's rink or possibly with the original choreographer.

There's a pecking order in the rinks with every coach and especially the top ones like Raf. His priorities are Chen, Wagner and Rippon right now. Raf also coaches Brezina, Ponsart and then of course Mariah. So the latter two are less of a priority right now than the first 3-4 skaters. All coaches do this, you'll work with an assistant coach more if you aren't one of the priority skaters at the time. For instance, this happened to Lysacek when he went to Carroll in 2003. He worked more with Congemi with Carroll's orders due to Frank having more prioritized skaters at the time such as Goebel.

So in Mariah's case her choice is not to work with Rohene in CO when she doesn't get priority time from Raf in CA right now etc. That is definitely not how these things work.

 

[skateluvr]

Ashley is making mistake3 times too much. Lalaland looked good when she and shae were working. I'm tired of Satine.

 

[johnsmith72]

I understand Ashley's logic, but I wish she would at least skate to La la Land for a short program instead of Hip Hip Chin Chin. Repeating 2 programs is definitely disappointing, and I think the judges might be more withholding with her components unfortunately

 

[Icey]

Bring back The Black Swan. I don't went to see Hip Hip or Moulin again.

 

[temadd]

Bring back The Black Swan. I don't went to see Hip Hip or
Moulin again.

Yes! Black Swan and the spiral sequence! I worry that the judges will hate a 3rd time with the same music.

 

[MarinHondas]

I honestly don't know how I feel about Ashley returning to Moulin Rouge for a 3rd time.

It was a phenomenal program but, IMO, she's already had her moment with that program...actually she had two moments: nationals in 2015 and Worlds in 2016. I hate that she can't seem to find anything else that speaks to her.

I wonder if they're going to use the same edits or if she's going to switch it up. Most skaters don't use a program more than twice so for it to show up a 3rd time...it almost needs to be unrecognizable.

It's interesting that of the top women only Karen came up with two new programs. Everyone else recycled at least one program.

I guess we'll see how this turns out...

Oh how I agree! Ashley's moment with these programs in 2016 was so special, I think she wants that same moment at the Olympics but.. I fear it will be hard to recreate. If the real reason she is returning is concussions and unable to memorize new programs that is understandable but I still wish she might have picked two different old programs to rework. I loved how her last performance with MR was the best.

 

[evasorange]

reading the new ashley interview it seems to me she should have at least tried skating to la la land at a small competition. It sounds like the major problem was she didn't feel connected to the character in a dramatic way...well an audience and actually getting the program out in the world and seen could have helped with that. I mean she says stuff like "i love the music, i love the choreography" and the fact that she didn't even try to show it at champs camp....wasted opportunity for a fresh new moment imo.